Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Utnayan_sl said:

The last time we had Brad here (Foh) he was talking about magical pirate controlled ships already in Vanguard doing random patrol routes from Island to Island.

You can call it unhinged or whatever else you like. When the lies were so blatant in 2006-2007 that even half of Sigil Games was wondering what the hell was going on, everything is under the microscope. With that said, even *I* said that he has a 1% chance, if onl.y because he is the only one out of the good ol' boys club that exists today who ever actually took it in the ass when Vanguard hit the skids. Everyone else scapegoated their way out of things and kept on trucking with SOE or another organization to fuck up another title. Those people are complete resource sinks in this industry. I like the concept. The fact it takes a certain investment level to see a class created for the game that I could play since birth is a completely different story.

Gecko, get real. Shitting up the TESO thread? TESO shititselfand you know it.

You know, the more real people that are in this thread, the less I will chastise those specific posters and callout the obvious bullshit. We can start by sticking to needing more information about the game, why there is such a lack of information, why there is a 50,000 foot reply to even the most general of questions, and just how much framework is even being done - or... Is this building the ship as we fly and Kickstarter allows for that better than SOE since they wouldn't green light it yet and sent him here and to Kickstarter first on a contingency basis.

This game needs a much better plan than a bunch of internet fanboys flailing around throwing out high pledge numbers for worthless tier rewards while Tad10 thinks he knows about the actual lives of any of the posters here who have known him as nothing more than a leeching journalist parasite trying to get hired in the industry.



You should see the process when they have 50 million in backing. It isn't any better.

Click to expand...

Why are people still getting trolled by this guy? He's nothing but a hate monger. He talks about people being full of shit, but he "wishes Brad well" then a couple pages later is picking one statement that Brad says apart and trying to run with it to start shit. When you really wish someone well, you don't do that. In all my years of reading his posts on FoH i have never seen anything positive being posted by him. Utnayan, you said you were done, and you keep on posting the same thing over and over. We get it, you think Brad is a liar. We get it, you think the kickstarter isn't fair to players. We get all of your astounding revelations. We just don't give a shit what you think aboutourmoney. I realize that this game could very easily not succeed. I am willing to pledge some money in hopes that it will. Can you just accept that and move on? Or are you going to post the same rhetoric about VG over and over again?

Oh i didnt see it til now, looks like the $45 tier went from a limit of 2500 to 700 pledges... now the $55 makes even more sense.

tad10_sl said:

Which wasn't my point was it? My point was that a bunch of people who have neither CS degrees nor development experience were discussing Unity and Heroengine in this thread as if they were Coke and Pepsi.

Click to expand...

Hypocrite much Mr 'Seamless costs more than zones because art'?

Utnayan_sl said:

I am 99% sure SOE is on board with this after they siphon dollars from consumers.

Click to expand...

You are paranoid to the point of insanity.

@a_skeleton_03 you are not paranoid to the point of insanity, but I really don't get your fixation on the engine here, bro. The focus needs to be on getting Brad's little project (BLP) funded, all you're doing talking about engines is propping up Ut's weird paranoid fantasies about predatory producers laughing manically in the dark as they force us little peons to pony up money for kickstarter.

Anyway, time to move on.

Hateyou_sl said:

I would suggest canning the Kickstarter. Start a nice website and start working on filling it with lore, classes, concept art, maps, dungeon designs, etc the two days a week you're meeting in the garage. Get polls up and let people tell you what classes, tiers, etc they want.Plan aheadand redo the kickstarter once your plan is actually complete. You dove in to a pool without checking if there was water first.

You're not going to convince anyone you can make a good game when you can't even design a simple kickstarter page. Take this as a learning experience, go back to the drawing board, and start over.

Click to expand...

This is the best advice in the thread. Use this whole mess as a valuable learning tool, because it's all incredibly poorly done and instills zero confidence than Brad or his team can actually pull off an MMO if they can't pull off a kickstarter page

If it takes silent publishers using Kickstarter to get a good game out the door, then so be it.

Wait, if we were all mouthpieces for SOE, doesn't that mean we'd WANT a SOE connection and hope Ut was right about it... instead of the opposite?

I'm so confused.

Brad why was the Kickstarter created when there is almost nothing to show or talk about for this game? Why is the amount set at a piddly $800k? Why do you need us to tell you where to post to get the word out?

Is this a now or never for you? Is there someone behind the scenes pulling the purse strings and forcing your hand? Do you still lack any and all business sense?

All you fanboys singing Brad's praises, lambasting people for not contributing, and drumming up hype are hurting Brad more than helping him. You're fostering his enthusiasm. He already has enough enthusiasm, he doesn't need more, what he needs is someone to reign in his personality and keep him calm instead of feeding his excitement.

There is no way I would contribute to this Kickstarter because as it stands right now I have no idea what I would be contributing to.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

You fanboys are worse than Firefly and Tool fans. Raving madmen with tard10 marching in front and issuing orders.

Click to expand...

Firefly was dope.

@Hateyou I agree. I really would prefer a reset of the kickstarter with better video, more concept art and tiers that make sense from the get go. As discussed way back before Monday, most really successful kickstarters like Obsidian's had a lot of pre-KS marketing so first day was huge.

Skanda_sl said:

Hypocrite much Mr 'Seamless costs more than zones because art'?

Click to expand...

Sweet.

If a zoned and seemless world are the same size they would incur the same art cost, however, seemless worlds tend to be a lot larger than zoned worlds because of "connection areas" that connect what in other games would be zones and require additional art and design costs. Which was the point I was trying to make, but didn't make clearly. But whatever, you got me

Lithose_sl said:

Yeah. I think this is just a matter of being so sick of WoW's quest. But the fact is, I don't know about you guys, but I loved the first time I logged onto my gay night elf and saw how the quest system in WoW worked. It was quick, refreshing and pretty fun. Also, the quests were interesting---at first. The problem arose when I saw quest chains were like an episodic TV show. They had little, to no, impact on my character or the world, and even the items I got from them were gone in a couple levels. Doing quests in WoW were like watching Law and Order--mildly enjoyable in the moment, utterly forgettable by next episode.

I think that is where modern quest systems fail. By solely relying on quests for leveling, they've come tedious and they can't be impactful to you or the world because you need too many to get where you're going. Everyone points to epic quests, or the Shawl quest as being amazing but what was amazing about them was how memorable the rewards were, and how difficult and consuming they were to complete--the rewards gave you something that forced you to remember the quest for YEARS sometimes, after it was done. However, some of the quests in WoW, like finding the ghost wife of someone, were better written and more compelling, in my opinion (From a writing, not game, stand point). But the impression was just lost in a deluge of shit grinding quests. It's kind of like what happened to items. By making all progression at the end game work through items, they diluted the thrill and power of items. By making quests to mundane building blocks of character progression, they made it so most quests seeming boring, meaningless and trivial.

Hopefully this game will just keep in mind "too much of a good thing sucks". People need some form of absence to incur fondness. If I'm inundated with quests that give me unmemorable trinkets every 2 levels, chances are, I'm not going to enjoy any of them. They also need some form of permanence in changes to make things memorable--again, WoW is episodic TV anymore. Easy to get into, amusing to do a few times...but in the end, forgettable.

Click to expand...

In terms of quest "quality" WoW had quite a few even early on (Tirion Fordring line in the Plaguelands) that were awesome and scripted and even interesting to experience. It's just the quest OVERLOAD made the whole experience mind numbing. I loved my first couple of characters to 60 and had fun exploring and finding random things out in the world. It's just like after a while it became tedious. As the game progressed it got even worse as questing became more streamlined. It was just an endless formula of walk to quest hub, tag every NPC with an exclamation point not bothering to read the text, spend 30 seconds glancing at your map and the quest journal to guess at what might be the most efficient route to complete the quests.

Then the "fun" part. Run from point to point, mindlessly killing boring mobs with no notable characteristics beyond likely carrying the quest item you need. Collect enough. Move to the next point. Pick up random crap off the ground. Next point. More mindless killing. Next point. Mindless killing to get item you spend 2 minutes wondering why it isn't updating your quest tracker. Realize you have to right click the items to "clean them off". Click them all and kill more til log fills up. Kill biggest thing in camp for a different quest. Run back to the quest point. Turn in quest. Retag all NPCs for quests as you turn in previous, tag any NPCs with new quests. Repeat tip no more exclamation points. Move to next area.

I can't even remember the last time I really read through quests in WoW unless the tracker wasn't updating. The newer ones (cata+) even have pretty decent stories with phased areas that really give you the impression that you are part of something, but after thousands of WoW quests, it's really hard to look at it as anything more than a huge grind.

In EQ finding quests was in and of itself a bit of a quest. NPCs were just NPCs. Based on your faction or appropriate use of keywords they might say something interesting to you or provide you with items you could use to complete a task for them. Or they might say nothing. Doing other things that changed your faction might cause them to open up later. You just weren't bombarded with them, and if you found an obscure quest somewhere you might even have to figure it out for yourself!

I think some modern games have really done cool things with questing. WoW with its phased story based zones in new content gets way less credit than it deserves. TSW while terrible in many ways probably has the most interesting quests (story, investigation, puzzle variety only) of any game I have ever played. Some of them genuinely require thought, prior knowledge, etc. Sure you can just look at a cheat site and breeze through them, but if you're like me and like puzzles, they are great. SWTOR while 99.9999% a copy of WoW with Bioware dialogue does get some love for its Bioware dialogue. I like that you have alternate choices for how you complete some quests and how you treat NPCs. It's not implemented as well as in their single player games, but I think it's a step in the right direction. Even EQ Kunark with the low level quests available in its starting area was a good step (class items, curscale armor, etc). Sure there were some of those in vanilla EQ but these seemed to be a little more useful/accessible.

Another thing that should be said I guess is that in EQ, quests were supplemental to how you leveled. They were not the means by which you leveled. Sure in WoW you get exp for killing mobs, but it was more efficient usually to kill the mobs the quests wanted you to to maximize your exp. In EQ it was more like you killed things for exp and if you just happened to collect a bunch of gnoll teeth in the process you could turn them in for a little bonus love. I'm not saying QUEST TO LEVEL is wrong, it just seems like it has a negative impact on how quests feel/how they are viewed over time.

*shrug*

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

You fanboys are worse than Firefly and Tool fans. Raving madmen with tard10 marching in front and issuing orders.

Click to expand...

It sure beats whining about the lack of good MMOs and/or re-re-reliving the "good old days."

tad10_sl said:

Sweet.

If a zoned and seemless world are the same size they would incur the same art cost, however, seemless worlds tend to be a lot larger than zoned worlds because of "connection areas" that connect what in other games would be zones and require additional art and design costs. Which was the point I was trying to make, but didn't make clearly. But whatever, you got me

Click to expand...

^

tad10_sl said:

My point was that a bunch of people who have neither CS degrees nor development experience were discussing Unity and Heroengine in this thread as if they were Coke and Pepsi.

Click to expand...

Guess what I have that you don't dumbfuck.

Zaven_sl said:

Why are people still getting trolled by this guy? He's nothing but a hate monger. He talks about people being full of shit, but he "wishes Brad well" then a couple pages later is picking one statement that Brad says apart and trying to run with it to start shit. When you really wish someone well, you don't do that. In all my years of reading his posts on FoH i have never seen anything positive being posted by him. Utnayan, you said you were done, and you keep on posting the same thing over and over. We get it, you think Brad is a liar. We get it, you think the kickstarter isn't fair to players. We get all of your astounding revelations. We just don't give a shit what you think aboutourmoney. I realize that this game could very easily not succeed. I am willing to pledge some money in hopes that it will. Can you just accept that and move on? Or are you going to post the same rhetoric about VG over and over again?

Click to expand...

Ut is the guy who tells you that new hot girl you met is really a whore scumbag who will try to marry you asap so she can sleep with your brother and then take your house and dog. You hate that motherfuckers guts for saying that about your sweet little innocent girl. Then two years later she is living your mcmansion while you have an apartment on the wrong side of the tracks and Ut comes back to tell you that rebound girl is also a whore lookin to take some of that sweet disability money you get now because the first girl fucked you in the head so bad you can't work, and you hate Ut all over again for a second time for calling your sweet girl a whore, she gets you and would never do you like that first one did.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

You fanboys are worse than Firefly and Tool fans. Raving madmen with tard10 marching in front and issuing orders.

Click to expand...

Lol not sure there is anyone on here who hasn't critiqued this project. That doesn't mean we don't want to see it succeed.. And lol at ripping on Tad with marching orders when we damn know you're one of the guys who was probably PMing UT asking him to post in this thread. It's funny how when UT shows up more haters start posting.. Does he make you feel more confident in your stance??

I think at this point the VR team needs to take a second and really fix this KS.. Going ahead it can't lead to all this confusion. It's not good enough at this point.

bayr_sl said:

This is the best advice in the thread. Use this whole mess as a valuable learning tool, because it's all incredibly poorly done and instills zero confidence than Brad or his team can actually pull off an MMO if they can't pull off a kickstarter page

Click to expand...

I don't think many people who aren't going to pledge anyhow would pledge if this advice was taken. You're either in for giving them a shot to START making a game that might end up what we've been missing, or you're out and no amount of proving they can design a kickstarter will sway you.

By the sounds of things, to spend the time to start making the game so they can show a game they've started making, they'd have to get backing from an investor or publisher. At that point, the same people who aren't ever going to be on board with Brad-vision will just use that fact to show the vision has already been compromised and the game will be a WoW clone or turn to ezmode or that Brad will be over-funded and not hungry to succeed and blow the cash on office furnishing.

Basically, people either are or are not ever going to support Brad or a project like this. I'm not sure there's a point of either side trying to convince the other to turn to/away from the dark side. All the people who want this project can do is find other people who want this project, so they at least know about it.

If we want this project to succeed for personal reasons, which we do, so we have a game we want, then actively rallying against the project is what, wanting it to NOT succeed for personal reasons, too, right? But what are you gaining? Going to be right on the internet and get to turn that into username recognition? Going to have a party thrown in your honor for saving some poor gamer 30 bucks? Finally be crowned a white knite? Let me guess, it's just the RIGHT thing to do to point out the obvious cons of a project and condescend to everyone else like an idiot like they can't make decisions for themselves, and thank god for random internet prognosticators, otherwise I'd never have known a game, project, business venture can fail. Hell, I'd never have known knees can be sharp if it weren't for some people on these forums. Thanks, you've saved me from nothing!