Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

mkopec_sl said:
Well early EQ did not handle risk vs reward well either. and Kunark just made things worse. Those out of the way dungeons, like Permafrost, should of had better exp and rewards for being so out of the way and harder.

Old suggestions but they are worth repeating:

The longer a mob is alive, the more xp it gives (maybe even loot but xp should be valuable and thus enough. Game needs deep AA points)

Placeholders for named continue to check for named spawn at each spawn intervall, so a dungeon that has been deserted for a few days is a treasure trove. Also have some very rare spawns that wouldnt make sense if they could only spawn when the PH dies, since now the dice for the spawn is rolled twice per hour no matter what.
Those two changes alone should bring enough traffic to less desired regions. There'll always be the hotspots that everyone flocks to, and there'll always be less frequented dungeons that yield better rewards for those that tackle the longer travel or more difficult denizens there.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

mkopec_sl said:
Or the Cleric that sold Temp or Virt, or the Shaman that sold HoS. And the warrior which sold.... Hehe forgot about how fucked warriors were.

I know alot of folks see buff selling as the pillar of community, but I gotta say I'm not a fan of that. I'd prefer if all buffs were actually auras, and required some sort of upkeep to have running (like bards only being able to do a few simultaneously, but less annoying to keep up). I like the way Path of Exile does buffs, where you have many different ones available but you cannot use everything because it blocks out part of your resources for each aura. Maybe only do that for the big combat/downtime related buffs like Regen/Clarity/Haste/HP/AC, but let people buff invis/see/levitate/sow/EB and do ports the old way.

Secrets · Feb 1, 2014

Twitch- interview with Brad, Salim, and Ben going on in 10 mins!

Chakravartin_sl · Feb 1, 2014

guy(s) on p99 think 2017 is the alpha date

supertouch_sl · Feb 1, 2014

I never played a druid or wizard in EQ and never had a problem with mobility. I'd either spend 5 minutes running to my destination or 5 minutes looking for someone to port me and I'd send them some bullshit like "Please, sir. I will pay 5 pp for a port." MMOs need to avoid the "get in and get out" approach that's plaguing this genre.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

LFG_sl said:
Classes having useful, unique buffs/abilities for a group is a good thing and I'm not arguing against that.

IMO ports fall into a different category entirely and should be handled, ideally, by the gameworld instead of a specific class.

Dumar_sl said:
Then by your own definition, there is no gameworld. Because every player can now bypass the world as it is, which means that every single player has the option of not dealing with it, and, in an effective sense, it no longer exists.

A design team could approach his suggestion with the proper respect for the world they create and make it work - question is do they want to?

For example, EQ had travel limited to wizards and druids and some oddities (fire pots, alchemy, OT hammer). Cool, take that out, instead limit travel (to different destinations) to wood elves and halflings due to whatever lore fits your world. Or limit it to factions within a faction system where you cannot get them all - Velious-style but with actual permanent choices instead of flipping back and forth depending on which head you had bagged.

Or ideally, do all of the above but exercise very strict moderation to preserve the size and scope of the world.

Vandyn_sl said:
If your going to incorporate something like boats, what about flight paths then? I'm not saying go to the length that WoW went but make it limited points around the continent (read: not next to a dungeon).

I'm against free flying, so I see a world that has to be designed to accomodate any flight as extra effort. BUT I think there could be specific flight paths just like boats where it makes sense. Reaching the Aerie of the giant eagles and their mountain elf allies is only possible by befriending the elves and being allowed to ride an eagle up there? Cool. A greyhound griffon network that stops at every shithole? not so cool.

Have some coach rides, some boats, the odd flight path, a portal between two specific mage academies you can only access if they like you ... all in moderation.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

Tide27_sl said:
I am interested in knowing why a majority of the people claiming they don't want a dungeon finder in game, were the same ones bitching over the past years complaining when any mmo released that DIDNT have a dungeon finder.

I remember complaining in GW2 that they didnt have a good lfg tool, but I never wanted an auto-grouping dungeon finder. I specifically asked for the kind of LFG tool EQ had in the LDoN era. Which I also want for Pantheon - just list your class and what you want to do, and people can chat you up. The point to it is that you can be out doing stuff while lfg instead of sitting in a town. I also complained in TOR that you had to sit on fleet to get groups because their starting point was there instead of being on the level-appropriate planets (where the groups would form naturally, I think I had a Westfall example earlier). The way I see it both those games didnt put any thought in that aspect of gameplay and shoved in a WoW LFD tool as a quick'n'dirty fix to make up for their design failure.

Convo_sl said:
That was an issue with EQ tho. I mean, chanters had a very coveted buff and were still highly sought out for groups. I think if had to decide as a wizard if I wanted ports or KEI, I'd take KEI. I think what we need to decide is if we want an EQ like class interdependence system in Pantheon or not?

As Enchanter, I'd prefer buff selling to be done away with (and "required buffs" be available in enough versions throughout classes that it doesnt bottleneck grouping). As an EQ example you could have a decent self-buff for mana classes with different mechanics for each that wouldnt stack with Clarity so a caster can solo or group play without a buff crutch, but still benefit from it. Alternatively, balance the spells better and dont make Clarity (or other spells like CH or slow) so fucking powerful to begin with.

popsicledeath · Feb 1, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
I can't believe there is so many fuckers lobbying hard to take away the mechanics that made druids and wizards unique. FUCK YOU GUYS! Seriously. You don't see my asking to have KEI stones for sale at the vendor or CH clickies or SOW potions(although yes, they did exist) or pets who could tank via a quest. SEND A FUCKING TELL TO A WIZARD OR DRUID. DONE. 90% of the time I would stop what I was doing to port someone. Remember when we got the translocates? I wouldn't even have to leave my group. Guy would say, "Hey, need a trans to DL", I would say, "Cool, meet me at "insert wherever I was"....He hands me a couple plat, I trans him, done.

With that being said, I DO agree with binds. Maybe each city can have a bind point so at least if you run your ass from FP to Qeynos you can bind before some fucking mob kills ya. But if you want to bind outside a zone, ya need a caster.

So, you want the nut-kicking mechanic that you personally benefited from directly in EQ, but not others that you didn't?

How about adding other things that make druids and wizards unique, instead of their uniqueness being marginalized to the point of being of little use more than as a port bitch?

I swear I've had this same arguments with hookers. Why should laws take away the ONE thing that is letting them make money?! How about adding some other things, like detox and self respect, and then you wouldn't have to latch onto the one thing that makes your existence worthwhile.

Seriously, if porting is the ONE thing that makes wizards or druids unique in Pantheon, they may as well not add the fucking class at all. I know it felt nice being so needed in EQ for at least something, but fuck me, I'd rather people wanted me for a variety of reasons than just put up with me because they needed one thing.

See also clerics who flip the fuck out at the notion that anyone else can heal or that healing classes can be at all interesting or fun enough to not have the same high-demand low-population that let them feel special.

Merlin_sl · Feb 1, 2014

Mr Creed_sl said:
As an EQ example you could have a decent self-buff for mana classes with different mechanics for each that wouldnt stack with Clarity so a caster can solo or group play without a buff crutch, but still benefit from it. Alternatively, balance the spells better and dont make Clarity (or other spells like CH or slow) so fucking powerful to begin with.

So caster classes have their own crack or KEI? Then what do we need you for?

Merlin_sl · Feb 1, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
So, you want the nut-kicking mechanic that you personally benefited from directly in EQ, but not others that you didn't?

How about adding other things that make druids and wizards unique, instead of their uniqueness being marginalized to the point of being of little use more than as a port bitch?

I swear I've had this same arguments with hookers. Why should laws take away the ONE thing that is letting them make money?! How about adding some other things, like detox and self respect, and then you wouldn't have to latch onto the one thing that makes your existence worthwhile.

Seriously, if porting is the ONE thing that makes wizards or druids unique in Pantheon, they may as well not add the fucking class at all. I know it felt nice being so needed in EQ for at least something, but fuck me, I'd rather people wanted me for a variety of reasons than just put up with me because they needed one thing.

See also clerics who flip the fuck out at the notion that anyone else can heal or that healing classes can be at all interesting or fun enough to not have the same high-demand low-population that let them feel special.

So all classes should be able to do all things. That is actually what you are saying. That classes should not be interdependent on each other because it limits their usefulness. So lets take porting away from druids and wizards. Lets take KEI away from chantys. Lets take healing away from clerics. Lets take tracking away from rangers. And in each case, let us add these utilities and give them to each player so they are not dependent on other classes. Lets make this game more like GW2 or EQN. Every player is able to be self-dependent and no one will ever have to look for any specific class when forming groups. Gotcha.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

Dumar_sl said:
If you want to traverse the world, going from Erudin to Ak'anon for example, should be a very serious ordeal. It should take a day's travel by yourself - a few to multiple hours minimum time traveling on foot with no buffs. That's the kind of world I'm expecting. Not one where you can travel there with just a little inconvenience without a port.

I'm hoping for that as well - if I want conveniences there's a ton of other games. If I'm in Everfrost, doing Charasis within the next hour should be flat-out impossible without the help of other players, and maybe even then.

popsicledeath · Feb 1, 2014

Kirun_sl said:
That's the beauty of a good troll. I could be trolling, I could be serious. It's up to you to decide.

If serious, you're not very smart because the thing you said is dumb.

If trolling, you're not very smart, because the thing you said is too dumb to be fooled into taking seriously.

Either way, it makes you dumb.

Maybe the trolling is in the fact you're smart enough to differentiate between being pretend dumb and actual dumb, and still let yourself be dumb?

I think now is when you say "OH SHIT GOT YOU GOOD FUCKER!" and everyone wishes you were dead.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

Pyros_sl said:
Here's an idea. Casters are too frail to carry much loot, so they can only loot and carry 1 item at a time. They can ask their warrior friends to carry their loot for them instead. If you hate this idea, you want an easy mode wow game fuck you for not wanting a true social experience.

I remember a KPC camp doing hell level where our warrior didnt want to throw away the copper and silver or heavy trash loot and literally crawled away for pulls ... didnt make it back to camp with the 2 LDC due to encumbrance a few pulls later. Lesson: Only looting what you can carry applies to everyone equally

popsicledeath · Feb 1, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
So caster classes have their own crack or KEI? Then what do we need you for?

Are you fucking trolling? Holy shit, dude, you've lost your fucking mind over this issue.

I'm guessing an enchanter would still be wanted for a group for the same reasons they'd have been wanted for a group even without KEI. The notion that the only reason a class is wanted in a group or game for ONE thing that was perceived as needed is kind of sad, really. What sort of warped experience did you have to have in EQ or life to think that's even close to a good system for anything?

Merlin_sl · Feb 1, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
Are you fucking trolling? Holy shit, dude, you've lost your fucking mind over this issue.

I'm guessing an enchanter would still be wanted for a group for the same reasons they'd have been wanted for a group even without KEI. The notion that the only reason a class is wanted in a group or game for ONE thing that was perceived as needed is kind of sad, really. What sort of warped experience did you have to have in EQ or life to think that's even close to a good system for anything?

Ok so we should take some abilities from each class, but not all right? Where do you draw the line? I mean, what if I can't find a chanty for group? Don't you think I should be able to have some sort of mez for myself so my group is notforcedto find a chanty? Its a blurry line and your not doing a very good job of explaining where to draw it.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
What was great for EQ isn't going to be great for a niche, small-scale, probably small population project like Pantheon. Even still, in another post I mentioned how there has to be a spectrum for travel, even to the point of some places that DO require certain classes to access. I guess that's the problem with having an argument and looking for places to make it instead of looking at a discussion and making the relevant argument.

That's kinda reaching, server population and number of servers are an important topic but they can hopefully hit the right size. Doesnt really matter if they have 5 full servers to EQs 50 then.

The better question is what ways can be used to keep all level ranges healthy - I think only having 20 levels is a good step in that direction.

popsicledeath · Feb 1, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
So all classes should be able to do all things. That is actually what you are saying. That classes should not be interdependent on each other because it limits their usefulness. So lets take porting away from druids and wizards. Lets take KEI away from chantys. Lets take healing away from clerics. Lets take tracking away from rangers. And in each case, let us add these utilities and give them to each player so they are not dependent on other classes. Lets make this game more like GW2 or EQN. Every player is able to be self-dependent and no one will ever have to look for any specific class when forming groups. Gotcha.

Can you literally not think in terms other than one extreme or the other? Honest question.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
So caster classes have their own crack or KEI? Then what do we need you for?

Same thing I still got groups for with a KEI bot parked at every corner, CC and good pulling. But if I wasnt clear, the classes with buffs could have stronger versions, just not the disparity from zero to Clarity that EQ had. Like someone said if your class is only good for one thing only, and that thing isnt even needed inside the dungeon like porting or only needs to be done once every 3 hours like some Clarity spells, pull the class entirely.

Merlin_sl · Feb 1, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
Can you literally not think in terms other than one extreme or the other? Honest question.

Show me a game that has found that delicate balance. Does one exist? There is no balance. Ohh wait. This just came up a while ago. Here ya go:

"Originally posted by Dumar"

If you have a class-based game, with abilities that are unique to class, part of their usenfulness & uniqueness (good definition for a class identity: usefulness & uniqueness) is manipulating the world in some way, a different way than the other classes, not different animation window dressing as in WoW. A LFG dialog box destroys both usefulness & uniqueness. No longer are wizard or druid teleports needed. If you have a very lax death penalty, no longer are cleric resses needed. No longer are necro summons needed.

CLASSES should powerfully manipulate the world in useful & unique ways. These dialog boxes and other conveniences in modern MMOs provide the utility to manipulate the world that the classes should. That's the problem with giving even an inch: any convenience given to players, like a LFG dialog, inherently takes away something a class could provide.

For my game, I would do similar to Velious: some ports to places you've been before, but very few of these and located in dangerous spots. Any teleport spells are class-based spells. There is no LFG dialog box, but a LFG channel that you are placed in once you /lfg yourself. Let the players sort out finding/creating groups amongst themselves: that's part of the massively interactive idea & was part of the appeal of EQ."

Its not really that difficult. Your trying your best to make is complicated, but its quite simple.

Mr Creed · Feb 1, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
Ok so we should take some abilities from each class, but not all right? Where do you draw the line? I mean, what if I can't find a chanty for group? Don't you think I should be able to have some sort of mez for myself so my group is notforcedto find a chanty? Its a blurry line and your not doing a very good job of explaining where to draw it.

It's up to the dev team to draw the line. That's like half their job.

If you look back over my posts, I'm sure you will find some where I'm concerned that they dont have enough CC classes. With the recently-added double spec per class there might be another one coming I guess. But as a wizard you actually had "some sort of mez" - root. Not sure which years you played but even as enchanter I had plenty groups where I had to settle for "ghetto mez" root because of mez immunities. Yea it's not perfect or even close, but making use of what you have is half the fun.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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