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Izo · Nov 7, 2015

pharmakos_sl said:
huh? even hodj admits that he's an agnostic atheist. no one knows what happens when we die, to say with absolutely certain that you know makes you a moron.

besides, this conversation wasn't supposed to be about whether god exists or not. its about what people should tell their children. do you even have kids?

You seem to have a reading disability. Let me try to help you out a little.

The false dichotomy is this: there are not only 2 sides - not only atheism and mono theism. Hence you misrepresenting. As for what happens when you die, neuronal activity cease, your heart stops pumping, your lungs no lunger inflate by ways of muscle contration, and eventually tissue decay sets in. Rigor, livores, cadaverositas, toe tag, mind gone - the mind cannot be sustained without the body.

What you're tryin to say, is that noone knows if there is more - because we cannot observe it. That is true. There are an infinite number of scenarios we cannot observe post-mortem. The question is this:why are you so certain it's your specific non-evidence fantasy, that is worthy of being taught to children? Why not a hindu myth? An icelandic sage? - as opposed to what we can observe, namely the well established physiological science. What is the justification you use, pharmakos?

Yes, I have children. I care about teaching as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible to my kids. This is why I engage you in here - I'm generally interested.

pharmakos · Nov 7, 2015

Izo_sl said:
The question is this:why are you so certain it's your specific non-evidence fantasy, that is worthy of being taught to children?

several pretty bold assumptions there. i'm not certain about anything. sorry if i offended your atheisticSJWattitude by not including buddah, krishna, allah, xenu, and the flying spaghetti monster. my apologies.

anyway, those with enough intelligence to not mangle my words would probably realize that i meant Theism and Atheism, not Christianity and Atheism.

Izo · Nov 7, 2015

pharmakos_sl said:
i'm not certain about anything.

It's cool, pharmakos. Enjoy your weekend

chaos · Nov 7, 2015

You fucking people are fucking up my beautiful thread.

lurkingdirk_sl said:
So it's just always bad to include religion in anything one does when raising children because you believe it's fantasy?

Okay. I'm all done discussing with you. Not because I'm beat in this discussion, but because that's a pretty stupid perspective. One rich in irony you are incapable of understanding.

I can understand the mentality. Like, if asked I would never claim to my kid that Islam was true, or Shinto, or Lord of the Rings, or whatever. I mean, if they are religious I want it to be their choice, and I don't want to poison them against any one thing, but I think it is impossible to both do that and be honest. If they ask me a pointed question, and honest answer I give will probably poison them against at least that religion, if not all religions.

Morally, I don't know if that is the correct thing to do. Partof life is the journey of knowledge and all of that bullshit, but part of it also is passing knowledge down to our children.

lurkingdirk · Nov 7, 2015

chaos_sl said:
Morally, I don't know if that is the correct thing to do. Partof life is the journey of knowledge and all of that bullshit, but part of it also is passing knowledge down to our children.

Yeah, that's where I'm at. If I have to compromise my own beliefs in order to make others happy in what I'm teaching my children, I'm probably not going there.

I guess we hope for consistency and honesty. Especially honesty.

Izo · Nov 7, 2015

Are you home schooling your five kids, dork?

lurkingdirk · Nov 7, 2015

Izo_sl said:
Are you home schooling your five kids, dork?

Keep up. I already said that my kids go to public school until grade 7, when they have an excellent opportunity to go to a private school that is one of the best in the country. Why are you being so obtuse?

Cad · Nov 7, 2015

lurkingdirk_sl said:
Keep up. I already said that my kids go to public school until grade 7, when they have an excellent opportunity to go to a private school that is one of the best in the country. Why are you being so obtuse?

What do you say when they are taught science like evolution and cosmology that directly contradicts religion?

When they ask how you reconcile this what do you say?

hodj · Nov 7, 2015

You should all bring this conversation to the religion thread.

It'll be more fun there, and Draegan won't fag out and rickshaw anyone for having it there.

Agraza · Nov 7, 2015

Catholics are totally on board with both astronomy and evolution Cad, and they dislike american creationist dogma. All religions are a little different, but catholicism is the largest faction of the largest religious branch in the world. It's not a given that dirk's views are contradictory to much of the scientifically proven facts.

Cad · Nov 7, 2015

Agraza_sl said:
Catholics are totally on board with both astronomy and evolution Cad, and they dislike american creationist dogma. All religions are a little different, but catholicism is the largest faction of the largest religious branch in the world. It's not a given that dirk's views are contradictory to much of the scientifically proven facts.

Fair enough, I'm just curious what he says.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 7, 2015

Cad_sl said:
What do you say when they are taught science like evolution and cosmology that directly contradicts religion?

When they ask how you reconcile this what do you say?

I say we don't know for sure the origin of life, because we do not. I say what I believe but that I could be very wrong.

That damn simple.

I know you are spineless and just want to point to a textbook and say "dad doesn't care about your questions go to school and ask them, I don't even know anything about science anyways". Some of us have deep conversations with our children about other religions, about our own, about the lack of religion, and we don't shy away from the fact that we could be very wrong. We instill a questioning mind into them at an early age. They don't follow the status quo just because. They don't get indoctrinated in any way whether it be religion or lack thereof.

I guess we could all be Cad though "don't believe in religion or I will disown you, I won't raise no retard". We can't all be bigots like Cad and Izo.

Your concern trolling is weak. You. Don't. Care.

Palum · Nov 7, 2015

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
I say we don't know for sure the origin of life, because we do not. I say what I believe but that I could be very wrong.

That damn simple.

I know you are spineless and just want to point to a textbook and say "dad doesn't care about your questions go to school and ask them, I don't even know anything about science anyways". Some of us have deep conversations with our children about other religions, about our own, about the lack of religion, and we don't shy away from the fact that we could be very wrong. We instill a questioning mind into them at an early age. They don't follow the status quo just because. They don't get indoctrinated in any way whether it be religion or lack thereof.

I guess we could all be Cad though "don't believe in religion or I will disown you, I won't raise no retard". We can't all be bigots like Cad and Izo.

Your concern trolling is weak. You. Don't. Care.

If you say that, aren't you potentially leading your child to eternal damnation though? You're just reinforcing their skepticism.

hodj · Nov 7, 2015

chthonic-anemos_sl said:
This is all an elaborate attempt to get Hodj banned.

Feels like it, but I barely read this forum or this thread, so its a bad attempt if so.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 7, 2015

Palum_sl said:
If you say that, aren't you potentially leading your child to eternal damnation though? You're just reinforcing their skepticism.

Really? Point to a passage saying that.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
1 John 4:1

The apostles themselves doubted and they walked with him for 3 years. Where do you think the phrase "doubting Thomas" comes from? Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith is a quote I heard a long time ago and I tell my kids.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 7, 2015

hodj_sl said:
Feels like it, but I barely read this forum or this thread, so its a bad attempt if so.

It isn't, Izo comes around every so often from doing whatever he is doing and trolls all over the grown up forum. This is just him concern trolling and Cad jumping on that bandwagon.

Palum · Nov 7, 2015

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Really? Point to a passage saying that.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
1 John 4:1

The apostles themselves doubted and they walked with him for 3 years. Where do you think the phrase "doubting Thomas" comes from? Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith is a quote I heard a long time ago and I tell my kids.

Not specifically that one time, but if he/she grows up and later abandons faith entirely because you supported their skepticism.

Izo · Nov 7, 2015

lurkingdirk_sl said:
Keep up. I already said that my kids go to public school until grade 7, when they have an excellent opportunity to go to a private school that is one of the best in the country. Why are you being so obtuse?

Citation? By what standards is it 'one of the best in the country'? Is it religiously founded? Why 7th grade?

Can you apply your intellect for 2 mins, read this short summary of the findings of a study on religion and kids:
Study: Religious Kids Are Jerks - The Daily Beast
...and give your 2 cents? I'm curious as to your rationalizations of the points it makes.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 7, 2015

Palum_sl said:
Not specifically that one time, but if he/she grows up and later abandons faith entirely because you supported their skepticism.

Then so be it. That is free will. I would rather stand in front of my deity and tell him or her that I taught my kids all the options than to try and Stockholm them into heaven in some way.

hodj · Nov 7, 2015

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
It isn't, Izo comes around every so often from doing whatever he is doing and trolls all over the grown up forum. This is just him concern trolling and Cad jumping on that bandwagon.

I teach my kids about religion. I've told them most of the stories in the Bible, shown them stories from the Greek myths (especially Persephone, because it is so illustrative of why and how religious beliefs came about from humans prescribing agency to natural phenomena and inventing tales to explain those phenomena) and I show them the scientific evidence that refutes the shit. Hell we watched The Passion together a couple of times lol.

That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter here: Its not my job to tell other parents how to raise their kids, but I do think that if kids weren't taught any of this stuff as being real or allegorically or metaphorically true from a young age, and were only exposed to it once they were like 20 ish, 99.9999999% of them would go "That's fucking retarded" and never bother with the stuff again.

I do have a problem with parents who homeschool their kids so that they can completely control the information they receive, and that's because I grew up next door to a family that did that, and played with their kids and was very good friends with them, and those kids definitely had a fucked up view of the world. This was in the 80s so the only shows they were allowed to watch were Little House on the Prairie, The Brady Bunch (Ironic since the dad was gay irl), and Yan Can Cook (greatest cooking show ever made fyi).

The mother of those kids was a complete psycho though. I mean true crazy woman. Believed she saw demons crawling on people and shit. Very nutty.

That degree of indoctrination probably rises to the level of child abuse, but just generally taking kids to church I dunno. I'm torn on the issue. But clearly, its not working to keep the kids from finding out alternative information now a days, so I'm not super worried about it, either. Once they hit college they tend to figure out for themselves most of the time.

You'll never get rid of it entirely, its just too much a part of the human experience to proscribe agency to perceived phenomena where none exists.

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Izo

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pharmakos

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