Path of Exile
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
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All sources of increased minion damage apply.
I'm guessing you're playing around with black cane and bladefall blade blast? Black Cane is kinda pob warrior.
Xevy
was right that those phantasms die to a stiff breeze. Where you want that damage most, they aren't going to be reliable. They are irrelevant during clearing as that's going to be explodey chest doing the bulk of the work.
Even if the phantasms were tanky, take a look duration and chance to proc on a boss fight. You need 110 hits of bladefall over 15s just to sustain them. And I'm pretty they have to expire before summoning a new one, which makes it worse but I wasn't sure how to do that calculation.
That said, even at, let's say 3 phantasms, it's a pretty heftt amount of physical damage to spells. I ended up ditching the character partly because of the poor implementation of phantasms on bosses and because of the delay of bladefall. I'm very much a point, click, instant death kind of player. It's probably why I don't like mines nor the new 2H slams. Bladefall felt worse than some chaos dot skills! Also also, the supports needed maximize blade blast blades(conc effect and level 1 spell cascade) made bladefall an unreliable clear skill. Explodey chest helps a ton, but even from a targeting perspective, I found it quite annoying.
Xevy mentioned going crit instead of Black Cane. He might have a pob. I could never build a crit bladefall/blade blast chieftan that was significantly better than even a gimpy Black Cane version. Having to start in the lower left side of the tree makes it really hard to pick up all the crit and block nodes in the upper right. I didn't want to give up block.
I'm guessing you're playing around with black cane and bladefall blade blast? Black Cane is kinda pob warrior.
Xevy
was right that those phantasms die to a stiff breeze. Where you want that damage most, they aren't going to be reliable. They are irrelevant during clearing as that's going to be explodey chest doing the bulk of the work.Even if the phantasms were tanky, take a look duration and chance to proc on a boss fight. You need 110 hits of bladefall over 15s just to sustain them. And I'm pretty they have to expire before summoning a new one, which makes it worse but I wasn't sure how to do that calculation.
That said, even at, let's say 3 phantasms, it's a pretty heftt amount of physical damage to spells. I ended up ditching the character partly because of the poor implementation of phantasms on bosses and because of the delay of bladefall. I'm very much a point, click, instant death kind of player. It's probably why I don't like mines nor the new 2H slams. Bladefall felt worse than some chaos dot skills! Also also, the supports needed maximize blade blast blades(conc effect and level 1 spell cascade) made bladefall an unreliable clear skill. Explodey chest helps a ton, but even from a targeting perspective, I found it quite annoying.
Xevy mentioned going crit instead of Black Cane. He might have a pob. I could never build a crit bladefall/blade blast chieftan that was significantly better than even a gimpy Black Cane version. Having to start in the lower left side of the tree makes it really hard to pick up all the crit and block nodes in the upper right. I didn't want to give up block.
ronne
Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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Yea I'm doing block/glancing blows currently as well.
The phantasms are definitely harder to sustain than I thought they'd be, and I expect they are gonna suck dirt vs bosses for sure. It's sure a fuckload of damage while mapping so far though. My current plan is to try and use Kitava's Thirst to auto-cast blade blast and just focus on spamming bladefall, but I'm not sure how reliable it will be given the 50% chance. I'd have to get to like, 3 casts per second? And that's a lot of fucking mana if you have to spend 100 per cast, so maybe it's just not realistic.
I wanna try this with disintegrator too eventually, as the flat phys on that thing is fucking stupid, and the phys dot on it should almost end up being a net positive on chieftan if you're using cleansing water. With glancing blows being the way it is I suspect you can cap block from staff nodes as well and still end up pretty tanky.
The phantasms are definitely harder to sustain than I thought they'd be, and I expect they are gonna suck dirt vs bosses for sure. It's sure a fuckload of damage while mapping so far though. My current plan is to try and use Kitava's Thirst to auto-cast blade blast and just focus on spamming bladefall, but I'm not sure how reliable it will be given the 50% chance. I'd have to get to like, 3 casts per second? And that's a lot of fucking mana if you have to spend 100 per cast, so maybe it's just not realistic.
I wanna try this with disintegrator too eventually, as the flat phys on that thing is fucking stupid, and the phys dot on it should almost end up being a net positive on chieftan if you're using cleansing water. With glancing blows being the way it is I suspect you can cap block from staff nodes as well and still end up pretty tanky.
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Take a look on poe.ninja, some of the puzzles you're pondering have already been figured out.
Kitava's Thirst and Bladefall/Blade Blast do not care about your cast speed since Kitava's Thirst is chance per cast. The interaction you need to be mindful of is Lingering Blades. You can easily run into the limit before KT procs. However, there's not much you can do about it as there's a limited set of supports for bladefall that are useful for blade generation. I posted some Python code some pages back that simulated that if you're interested. You need it to figure the true blades/s that bladefall generates. And that's not even touching how many of those blades will be placed in blade blast aoe of the boss(no idea myself).
You DO want cast speed to make bladefall just feel good though. I've found any skill that takes more than a third of a second to be too slow.
I didn't look into Disintegrator, that's an interesting suggestion. Excludes Trigger enchant though.
EDIT: That actually brought a few old thoughts on this build. If you go Black Cane, you need to dual wield to get Trigger enchant, which means no shield and block cap. If you go crit, you can go shield block cap and Trigger enchant, but that's really hard for Chieftain to cover, passive wise. If you go staff, no Trigger enchant.
This build has some awkwardness in the weapon slot.
Kitava's Thirst and Bladefall/Blade Blast do not care about your cast speed since Kitava's Thirst is chance per cast. The interaction you need to be mindful of is Lingering Blades. You can easily run into the limit before KT procs. However, there's not much you can do about it as there's a limited set of supports for bladefall that are useful for blade generation. I posted some Python code some pages back that simulated that if you're interested. You need it to figure the true blades/s that bladefall generates. And that's not even touching how many of those blades will be placed in blade blast aoe of the boss(no idea myself).
You DO want cast speed to make bladefall just feel good though. I've found any skill that takes more than a third of a second to be too slow.
I didn't look into Disintegrator, that's an interesting suggestion. Excludes Trigger enchant though.
EDIT: That actually brought a few old thoughts on this build. If you go Black Cane, you need to dual wield to get Trigger enchant, which means no shield and block cap. If you go crit, you can go shield block cap and Trigger enchant, but that's really hard for Chieftain to cover, passive wise. If you go staff, no Trigger enchant.
This build has some awkwardness in the weapon slot.
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ronne
Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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Hmm yea I see what you mean, a lot of these dudes are doing exactly what I'm trying to do.
Ultimately the convenience of a cast trigger on a rare wand is probably going to beat out any damage Black Cane can provide. Getting frenzies from Cold Snap and not having to cast Wave is a pretty big quality of life thing, and I'm sure a rare wand with a fat fire damage roll and like +1 phys gems is probably pretty close to what Black Cane provides in terms of damage anyway.
You can still cap block in a dual wield setup from the looks of things if you use a Rumi's, but I think most of the value in the block setups is getting a shield with life recovered on block anyway, so even if you can I'm not sure it's worth it? Disintegrator might still be just because of the hilarious amount of flat phys it adds, but I need to get up to red maps and see what the damage looks like before I decide if I even need that much extra damage honestly.
Xevy
Log Wizard
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I'm not at home, but I can link my PoEDB when I return. Black Cane is amazing for an early starter and mid gamr. It'll definitely work all the way to T8 but phantadm management sucks. I even tried a Blessed Rebirth cluster jewel and it just wasted points for very little help and no damage gain.
If you drop Black Cane definitely get rid of Spiritual Aid and invest in eithet clusters or regular jewels. I went criy because of all the minion stuff I could skip and that put my damage over the top. The Elemental Overload guys do less dps, but can more heavily invest in defense which is why a lot of them are near or above 7khp.
My weapons were found/bought sceptres with fire incursion mod and T2 or T3 fire spells. On that you can craft or harvest fire %, spell crit, spell cast, and crit multi for some very fine weapons. I believe my crit multi one is something like 19% more damage than a full Phantasmal Might Black Cane with 21 phantasms. Just make sure you craft the fire stuff first as you can almost guarantee another flat fire to spells via add fire/remove attack/remove (cold/lightning/phys)/remove non fire. The good suffixes are guaranteed caster mods for the most part.
If you drop Black Cane definitely get rid of Spiritual Aid and invest in eithet clusters or regular jewels. I went criy because of all the minion stuff I could skip and that put my damage over the top. The Elemental Overload guys do less dps, but can more heavily invest in defense which is why a lot of them are near or above 7khp.
My weapons were found/bought sceptres with fire incursion mod and T2 or T3 fire spells. On that you can craft or harvest fire %, spell crit, spell cast, and crit multi for some very fine weapons. I believe my crit multi one is something like 19% more damage than a full Phantasmal Might Black Cane with 21 phantasms. Just make sure you craft the fire stuff first as you can almost guarantee another flat fire to spells via add fire/remove attack/remove (cold/lightning/phys)/remove non fire. The good suffixes are guaranteed caster mods for the most part.
AladainAF
Best Rabbit
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Thank you for making my point for me. Think of the ways the last year of content could have been designed without HH. Simulacrum could have been Endless Ledge 2.0, that would have been pretty cool.
I disagree about HH being moot in currency farming. It allows you to farm harder maps earlier. You're in a race against other groups, the economy itself, and your own group. Most of them breakup after a week after reaching their farming goals. HH allows them farm more currency in set amount time, which inherently inflates the economy and devalues your drops.
If HH isn't as good as you're purporting, why does it command the price it does? Rarity alone isn't enough. There are many rare items that cost alchs to single exalts due to no demand.
AladainAF See above. I've espoused these points many times, even today. The very short summary is that it affects my game experience despite never owning one.
We're simply going to agree to disagree, but if you're going to claim that HH "affects your game experience despite never owning one" (lol?) then there's really no point in arguing about it.
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Why is that "lol?"?
It sucks that no one that defends HH wants to have this argument honestly.
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AladainAF
Best Rabbit
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I'm fine having the argument, but we're not going to agree.
It's lol, because everyones game experiences are affected by different things. You are upset because HH affects "your" gaming experience, but take no consideration as to how it affects others?
HH is a huge part of my gaming experience, because it gives me an ultimate goal, to obtain a HH. That's usually my goal for a league. Some people prefer to delve to 10k. Some people wanna boss farm all day. I just wanna get an HH to run maps in a fun and ridiculous manner.
To counter the "it affects the economy" argument, what doesn't? To the delve builds that let you monopolize the fossil market affect the economy? Does the guy who runs lab 24/7 clearing it in sub-3 minutes monopolize the lab jewels, enhancements, and open lab chests affect the economy?
There are counteless things in this game that "break" the game and "manipulate" the economy. Go ahead and nerf HH to holy hell, and something else will simply take its place.
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Of course everything is interconnected to some varying degree. What was implicit in my argument is that the effect HH has on the game is not inline with how many people get to reasonably use it.
I would say monopolizing certain parts of the market are more examples of problems with the game and do not justify HH.
I am not unsympathetic to the unique experience HH offers, that's a fair point. What about the solution posted by
Kythik
, let everyone get it at ~Bottled Faith prices? I would say that's a much more reasonable definition of "chase item" for most players, myself included. Or does that not make it chase for you anymore and thus not a worthwhile goal?
I would say monopolizing certain parts of the market are more examples of problems with the game and do not justify HH.
I am not unsympathetic to the unique experience HH offers, that's a fair point. What about the solution posted by
Kythik
, let everyone get it at ~Bottled Faith prices? I would say that's a much more reasonable definition of "chase item" for most players, myself included. Or does that not make it chase for you anymore and thus not a worthwhile goal?
ronne
Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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He's right, it can't go core. It destroys any semblance of balance the itemization in the game had.
Normies on reddit are just throwing temper tantrums because harvest was so ridiculously OP that all the 4 hours per week ultra-casuals were suddenly able to craft gear they could only drool over on the trade site before. That's the problem, but they don't care they just want their instant gratification and can't actually see the forest for the trees or whatever and how badly it destroys the game, invalidates other content, etc.
Normies on reddit are just throwing temper tantrums because harvest was so ridiculously OP that all the 4 hours per week ultra-casuals were suddenly able to craft gear they could only drool over on the trade site before. That's the problem, but they don't care they just want their instant gratification and can't actually see the forest for the trees or whatever and how badly it destroys the game, invalidates other content, etc.
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OU Ariakas
Diet Dr. Pepper Enjoyer
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Yeah, why should those fucking normal people with only a few hours to play each day get to enjoy all the content in the game? If you cannot spend 8 hours per day grinding then fuck your normal ass. Go play Minecraft.
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ronne
Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
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This is exactly my point. There's this perception out there that somehow because people don't have a 700pdps foil or an explode/curse chest they somehow are missing out on most of the game.
You don't need any of that shit. It's there purely for minmax/trophy purposes, and the fact that harvest has turned it to something people feel like they are entitled to is exactly the issue. It's so ridiculously easy to craft items that are many times more powerful than anything you need to clear all the content that it's going to make any new league they make entirely pointless, just like it has every other core mechanic currently. Delve? Nope, waste of time since no seeds/garden progress. Same for running temples, or breachstones, or syndicate, etc. Anything that isn't farming seeds is wrong because it's so many orders of magnitude better than everything else in the game, and that will hold true for any new league if harvest is still around.
That doesn't even get in to how miserable of an experience harvest would be as a 15% map spawn chance or whatever.
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OU Ariakas
Diet Dr. Pepper Enjoyer
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I don't think anyone is arguing that the harvest mechanic should stay. All of it was terrible. What confuses me and a ton of other people is the fight against better crafting. That is what everyone loved about this league. But instead of saying that some level of that is what the developers want to move towards instead we are getting utter silence. Even Bex said that she has asked about the future of deterministic crafting and they have simply told her that they are aware of the player base conversation. What sort of copout fucking answer is that?
Vanderhoof
Trakanon Raider
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LiquidDeath
Magnus Deadlift the Fucktiger
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Ronne is one of those guys who doesn't read most of the thread before posting his inane bullshit.
As has been said many times over the last several weeks, nobody likes the Harvest mechanic. Everyone likes crafting that isn't the worst type of gambling.
Only gigantic fucking morons think that 4 hour a week casuals were rocking mirror tier gear and beating A8 Sirus this league after never sniffing red maps in the past. Those people are maybe doing t16s and not even efficiently this league. There is a gross overestimation of both how easy Harvest made crafting for people who play the game 2 hours a day or less (shit, it is probably 20 hours a week or less) and how far those players pushed into content that they had never seen before.
This league made the vast majority of people aware of how great it could be to have goals for your gear that didn't involve farming mindlessly in the same gear and same content for a week, then enduring the bullshit of trading to buy a single item, then going back to the same mindless farming. Do this until all of your gear was good enough and then face the reality that you now have to farm your entire characters worth of currency for your next single slot upgrade and that you will never drop that item naturally or have enough extra currency to craft it without fear of a brick. It really just exposed how stupid the mid to late game gearing system has become and that nobody likes it except for insane masochists.
As has been said many times over the last several weeks, nobody likes the Harvest mechanic. Everyone likes crafting that isn't the worst type of gambling.
Only gigantic fucking morons think that 4 hour a week casuals were rocking mirror tier gear and beating A8 Sirus this league after never sniffing red maps in the past. Those people are maybe doing t16s and not even efficiently this league. There is a gross overestimation of both how easy Harvest made crafting for people who play the game 2 hours a day or less (shit, it is probably 20 hours a week or less) and how far those players pushed into content that they had never seen before.
This league made the vast majority of people aware of how great it could be to have goals for your gear that didn't involve farming mindlessly in the same gear and same content for a week, then enduring the bullshit of trading to buy a single item, then going back to the same mindless farming. Do this until all of your gear was good enough and then face the reality that you now have to farm your entire characters worth of currency for your next single slot upgrade and that you will never drop that item naturally or have enough extra currency to craft it without fear of a brick. It really just exposed how stupid the mid to late game gearing system has become and that nobody likes it except for insane masochists.
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