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eXarc

Trakanon Raider
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502
What are the farming strats this league? Zana in Haewark Hamlet for harvest. Harbingers in Valdo's Rest. legions in Glennarch Cairns. Harvest takes too much dicking around with TFT discord.
Top right Delirium nodes are pretty good imo, combined with Alva’s stuff which can be insanely profitable and nice now with the T3s etc. Burial Chambers being a natural T16 (15?) this time around is nice there as well.

I hesitated on the harvest passives in Haewark etc, even though that was my first choice, because I’ve seen endless complaints of people claiming the possibility of them not working correctly. People saying they’re running tons of maps without a garden pop even with all the nodes, etc. Not sure if it’s all anecdotal and RNG just being RNG, but it’s definitely possible something isn’t right. I personally haven’t seen much of a difference, garden has been elusive as shit for me, so who knows.
 
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Pasteton

Blackwing Lair Raider
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1,918
I heard cadiro in lex ej also pays back good but haven’t had much luck so far.
Lex ej still great though with the delirium mods, not only do you get a decent number of delirium map drops you get crazy good bonuses when you get a mirror
 

Kythik

Molten Core Raider
736
369
Lex was okay. I've done hundreds of BC maps with full Cadiro passives and polished Perandus scarabs with only one 30c profit trade. Having BC as my only t16, coupled with delirium map drop passive, gave me a ton of 20-80% delirius BC maps. Legion farming in New Vastir is a low investment, rusted scarab + zana mod, for a decent return. I'm going to try harbs in Valdo's rest next, but with more investment.

I'm using the non-HH version of the build Bunny posted. Even with rolling poison sextants, which isn't that time consuming or expensive, it's the fastest non-HH build I've ever played. It can comfortably do 60% full juiced t16s. 80%s are doable but one has to be fairly pro with movement.
 

Deathwing

<Bronze Donator>
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Play game, get money.

Sorry that I don't have a helpful answer. I haven't felt incentivized to have a farming strategy since...I think pre conquerors. Last time you could shape maps. And even then, I only did it because it was low effort. I kinda miss the days where map drops were worth something. Haven't had to trade for those in a while either.

Though, I suspect fewer rewards would mean more "player interaction"...so maybe not. It took me a couple hours of messaging to get my starter gear together for Cold BV Pathfinder. Fucking ridiculous.
 

Pasteton

Blackwing Lair Raider
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1,918
Right now simulacrums seem like an insane deal at 60c. You’ll most likely break even on scarab drops alone. I suppose the boredom of 20 waves is why people don’t do it but only the last couple waves are deadly, think most budget builds can get thru 1-18.
 

Deathwing

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AladainAF AladainAF

Continuing a conversation from guild chat. Mostly because it's a terrible place to have this kind of conversation. And I have to log for the night.

I've been vocal about HH in the past, I would like it removed from the game. I should clarify that I don't want buff stealing removed from the game(though it was poorly designed around in Legion, and I suspect Simulacrum was designed with it in mind).

I want people farming 10 to 100 times the amount of currency that I do removed from the game. I do not play this game to keep up with those types of players. I'm glad that they enjoy that type of activity, but why should what they do adversely affect the prices of my items?

I mean, HH is the prime example here. What if there's someone that wants to use that item because turning into a 40 ft character and running around the map is fun(it is). That player has absolutely no interest in farming T19 100% deli maps. But now he's heavily taxed to access content by all the people that do use HH for that purpose.

Aurastacking last few leagues is another example of this. If your build had any sort of end game progression that even looked at items desired by aura stackers(almost all builds fit some sort of aura stacking ideally), progressing your build at that point got quite expensive.


I realize what I'm describing is an economy. In principle, any thing I do that interacts with the economy affects the prices of others' items too. I feel the influence of those who farm for farming's sake is way out of whack, and HH is one part of the puzzle.

There are a significant portion of meta build progression and straight up non-meta builds gated behind trade interaction. Viable SSF when?
 
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Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,579
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AladainAF AladainAF

Continuing a conversation from guild chat. Mostly because it's a terrible place to have this kind of conversation. And I have to log for the night.

I've been vocal about HH in the past, I would like it removed from the game. I should clarify that I don't want buff stealing removed from the game(though it was poorly designed around in Legion, and I suspect Simulacrum was designed with it in mind).

I want people farming 10 to 100 times the amount of currency that I do removed from the game. I do not play this game to keep up with those types of players. I'm glad that they enjoy that type of activity, but why should what they do adversely affect the prices of my items?

I mean, HH is the prime example here. What if there's someone that wants to use that item because turning into a 40 ft character and running around the map is fun(it is). That player has absolutely no interest in farming T19 100% deli maps. But now he's heavily taxed to access content by all the people that do use HH for that purpose.

Aurastacking last few leagues is another example of this. If your build had any sort of end game progression that even looked at items desired by aura stackers(almost all builds fit some sort of aura stacking ideally), progressing your build at that point got quite expensive.


I realize what I'm describing is an economy. In principle, any thing I do that interacts with the economy affects the prices of others' items too. I feel the influence of those who farm for farming's sake is way out of whack, and HH is one part of the puzzle.

There are a significant portion of meta build progression and straight up non-meta builds gated behind trade interaction. Viable SSF when?
This. I still love this fucking game but they need some competition.
 
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AladainAF

Best Rabbit
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AladainAF AladainAF

Continuing a conversation from guild chat. Mostly because it's a terrible place to have this kind of conversation. And I have to log for the night.

I've been vocal about HH in the past, I would like it removed from the game. I should clarify that I don't want buff stealing removed from the game(though it was poorly designed around in Legion, and I suspect Simulacrum was designed with it in mind).

I want people farming 10 to 100 times the amount of currency that I do removed from the game. I do not play this game to keep up with those types of players. I'm glad that they enjoy that type of activity, but why should what they do adversely affect the prices of my items?

I mean, HH is the prime example here. What if there's someone that wants to use that item because turning into a 40 ft character and running around the map is fun(it is). That player has absolutely no interest in farming T19 100% deli maps. But now he's heavily taxed to access content by all the people that do use HH for that purpose.

Aurastacking last few leagues is another example of this. If your build had any sort of end game progression that even looked at items desired by aura stackers(almost all builds fit some sort of aura stacking ideally), progressing your build at that point got quite expensive.


I realize what I'm describing is an economy. In principle, any thing I do that interacts with the economy affects the prices of others' items too. I feel the influence of those who farm for farming's sake is way out of whack, and HH is one part of the puzzle.

There are a significant portion of meta build progression and straight up non-meta builds gated behind trade interaction. Viable SSF when?

I understand. These are fair points, even though I disagree with most of them.

Why do you feel that you should play the game to "keep up" with these types of players? How are they adversely affecting the prices of your items? As I mentioned in guild chat, why are you not equally angry at the 10k+ delve farmers? Lab runners? One shot boss killers? This is an age old argument people used to have about Everquest uber guilds, and how it was "unfair" to casuals that they cannot get to end game content because uber guilds spent way more time.

How is that player heavily taxed to access content? I don't get nor understand this. There's no real reason to farm T19 100% deli maps in a group, because there's so many scarabs you can't pick them up (And scarabs are the only reasons to run red maps in the first place). The only currency farming is for white or yellow maps, with 100% deli currency nodes. No one currency farms on T19 reds.

I am doing what I am doing because (in this order): a.) It's fun to play. b.) I am collecting money for my other build, as I spend nearly every chaos I had making that build just good enough to farm (by getting a nice explode BP), and then a HH. c.) I am also helping a friend of mine who doesnt play nearly as much, likes PoE, and wants to see more of it just doesnt have the time. d.) I like to maximize my time when possible.

I do agree that HH is a piece of the puzzle, and can throw some things out of whack. But there are other things that also throw things out of whack too. But none of these things should (nor do they) lock you out of content or prevent you from having fun.

SSF has never been more viable as it is today. Go look at the gear that Ziz makes on his SSF characters. It's insane. Each piece, if its even available in trade league, is worth more than 50ex each.
 

LiquidDeath

Magnus Deadlift the Fucktiger
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SSF is more viable, sure, but none of us have time to play the game as much as a professional to get it to that point.
 

Deathwing

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I understand. These are fair points, even though I disagree with most of them.

Why do you feel that you should play the game to "keep up" with these types of players? How are they adversely affecting the prices of your items? As I mentioned in guild chat, why are you not equally angry at the 10k+ delve farmers? Lab runners? One shot boss killers? This is an age old argument people used to have about Everquest uber guilds, and how it was "unfair" to casuals that they cannot get to end game content because uber guilds spent way more time.

How is that player heavily taxed to access content? I don't get nor understand this. There's no real reason to farm T19 100% deli maps in a group, because there's so many scarabs you can't pick them up (And scarabs are the only reasons to run red maps in the first place). The only currency farming is for white or yellow maps, with 100% deli currency nodes. No one currency farms on T19 reds.

I am doing what I am doing because (in this order): a.) It's fun to play. b.) I am collecting money for my other build, as I spend nearly every chaos I had making that build just good enough to farm (by getting a nice explode BP), and then a HH. c.) I am also helping a friend of mine who doesnt play nearly as much, likes PoE, and wants to see more of it just doesnt have the time. d.) I like to maximize my time when possible.

I do agree that HH is a piece of the puzzle, and can throw some things out of whack. But there are other things that also throw things out of whack too. But none of these things should (nor do they) lock you out of content or prevent you from having fun.

SSF has never been more viable as it is today. Go look at the gear that Ziz makes on his SSF characters. It's insane. Each piece, if its even available in trade league, is worth more than 50ex each.
I gave examples already to answer your first paragraph in my previous post, but I'll try a different one. Legion Emblems during 3.7. HH priced emblems such that it was more lucrative to sell them than run them without a HH.

Delve farmers are an issue. Much less so, their niche is relatively isolated and nerfs to fossil farming have diminished their ability to affect the market. Also, I hate "crafting" in this game, so it doesn't personally affect me much. But on principle, delve farmers are related. Lab runners are the same. I never plan a build around an Uber lab helm enchant. So, again, effect is relatively isolated as GGG has removed most "required" helm enchants. Boss killers is a bunk argument. They've never been profitable until this league. I'm honestly surprised they still are this long into the league. That said, I don't think it's been profitable long enough to accurately comment.

So it's an old argument means it is wrong? Shared spawns in EQ was bad design in terms of accessible content.

How is the player NOT heavily taxed? If I want to just possess a HH, it costs me 90 exalts.

Do you not see the irony? Your friend doesn't have the time to play through the endgame content, so you're funneling him money. What if the content your friend wanted to experience was a Transcendence aura stacker with last league prices?

I disagree about being locked out of content. Think of it this way, should the "Mathil Effect" prevent anyone from playing a build? In what is essentially a single player game, why should temporary(or rest of league, fuck you Astral Projector staying multiple exalts last league after Mathil played it) popularity price people out of builds? Even if you can afford it, it feels bad to pay popularity tax.

They're making improvements to SSF. I can't really tell if it's purposeful yet. Like, the Atlas passives for example. But, that aside, using Ziz as example of SSF viability is the opposite of what you want to do.
 

AladainAF

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SSF is more viable, sure, but none of us have time to play the game as much as a professional to get it to that point.

Ok, so you want SSF to not be viable but you want it to be on parity with trade league. If SSF is on parity with trade, then trade is pretty worthless.

I gave examples already to answer your first paragraph in my previous post, but I'll try a different one. Legion Emblems during 3.7. HH priced emblems such that it was more lucrative to sell them than run them without a HH.

HH did not "price emblems". The market "priced emblems". They priced it based on maximum returns from an HH sure. But was the problem HH here? Or perhaps, was the problem Cyclone and it's ridiculous uncapped range potential? Even though HH made it uncapped, cyclone with a prismatic edge with white sockets, and the gull giving you a chicken shrine was also enough range to cover the arena. They might not kill as fast, but two characters with this setup, and one person to do spawning can have the same results as a HH in the end given the capped loot potential and the fact that HH spends a lot of time waiting for respawns because there's a cooldown on respawning.

Delve farmers are an issue. Much less so, their niche is relatively isolated and nerfs to fossil farming have diminished their ability to affect the market. Also, I hate "crafting" in this game, so it doesn't personally affect me much. But on principle, delve farmers are related. Lab runners are the same. I never plan a build around an Uber lab helm enchant. So, again, effect is relatively isolated as GGG has removed most "required" helm enchants.

Ok, but again you seem to be bringing up these issues because (somehow?) they affect your way of playing the game. You say it yourself "I never plan a guild around an Uber Lab helm enchant". Ok, good for you. You play the game the way you want to play it, I'll play it the way I want to.

Boss killers is a bunk argument. They've never been profitable until this league. I'm honestly surprised they still are this long into the league. That said, I don't think it's been profitable long enough to accurately comment.

This is completely false, boss killers have been very profitable in every league. The issue is that boss killers become less profitable the longer a league goes on, and this league its staying mostly profitable because of the player retention this league is considerably higher than normal. Just like....... everything else in the league.

Here is a good example of early returns being extremely profitable: poe.ninja

Edit: Also, let's not consider the fact of 50c per siris kill, or uber elder carry, or any other carry that a boss killer can do all day long.

How is the player NOT heavily taxed? If I want to just possess a HH, it costs me 90 exalts.

Do you not see the irony? Your friend doesn't have the time to play through the endgame content, so you're funneling him money. What if the content your friend wanted to experience was a Transcendence aura stacker with last league prices?

No, the HH costs you either 90 ex, or your time to farm your cards. Or, you can do what I did and farm BC for doctors, and take whatever other currency and items you get during that to buy doctors as early as possible. I earned 2 doctors in the time I got enough ex to buy 6 other doctors. 3 of those 6 doctors I got for less than 8 ex (iirc one was 7ex, and two were like 7.5ex). 2 of them were 10ex, and 1 was 10.5 ex. My HH cost me time, and about 53ex.

I'm not funneling my friend money. He's looting my maps with me and we're splitting proceeds :). But nonetheless, even if the game was "viable" via SSF in the way you want it to be, people like my friend would never experience the end game anyway. The guy plays like 5 hours a week at the most. He's not going to ever experience PoE end game without my help. We've been friends for 30 years, so I'm gonna hook him up. The Headhunter also doesn't make that possible for him. I just as easily could continue to farm BCs on my normal every day BF/BB character. Instead of 1 map in 2-3 minutes, it would be 1 map in about double the time. So instead of 3 weeks to get 90ex, it would take 6.

You also missed the point that me, and Kyth, and others do. We farmed our HHs. We earned it, through grinding and working the markets in such a way where teh HH cost as little as possible. We did nothing you couldn't do yourself to get money, but instead of spending it on an HH, you could just sell the doctors when they are worth more. But it sounds like you want to play the game you want to, while at the same time jumping on people for playing it differently.

I disagree about being locked out of content. Think of it this way, should the "Mathil Effect" prevent anyone from playing a build? In what is essentially a single player game, why should temporary(or rest of league, fuck you Astral Projector staying multiple exalts last league after Mathil played it) popularity price people out of builds? Even if you can afford it, it feels bad to pay popularity tax.

They're making improvements to SSF. I can't really tell if it's purposeful yet. Like, the Atlas passives for example. But, that aside, using Ziz as example of SSF viability is the opposite of what you want to do.

You yourself said you dont play builds that require helm enchants. Why should anyone play a build that Mathil likes? Your position as I'm understanding it is that everyone should be able to play every build with laser like precision and get identical returns no matter your gear level, and that top tier gear should be easily available for all.

This exists in every game where there are tradeable items. Popular things are going to be more expensive than non-popular things. That's especially true in a game like path of exile where everything is tradeable.

Ziz had his SSF gear in the first week of the league. At what point does something become viable? If SSF Hardcore players are able to kill the end game boss of brand new content in the first fucking day of the league, I don't know what other viable ways it can be done. It sounds like you're just arguing a very simple argument: "I want everyone else to play the game in a way I want them to so long as they don't affect the prices of the things I want to play". It's a very self-centered argument.
 
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Xevy

Log Wizard
8,885
4,105
This game is incredibly SSF viable especially with Harvest core now. Like, saying you can't play SSF and then saying HH ruins trade is ????? because in the end HH brings down most shit to much more affordable prices (outside HH itself) to people who luck into exalts. If anything these mega farmers who can control a large portion, but not the entire market, can bring down the prices and still make a profit on the small stuff like 86 influenced bases in Legion league. They weren't what they were farming, they wanted timeless jewels, so everything "else" which was still SUPER FUCKING HARD TO GET they just sold quickly for quick profit. This helped the lower and middle tier players grab up shit they'd never have been able to afford other wise. It's like 6L astrals with influence. These conglomerates splitting them nonstop is great. Why? Because you can get any influenced 6L astral for any build you want for 45c. 3 leagues ago they would've been 20 ex. It's a buyers market and there's a handful of items that are expensive now and even then the relative prices of HH has gone down with the many, many paths to obtaining one.

Since this isn't EQ and there's isn't "OW" shit everyone can work their way up and become a farmlord. They can all enter the market, but their profit as well as the other farmlords profits will fall slightly. That's how that works. So a lot of people go "OH EMPYRIAN IS MAKING 7EX AN HOUR USING SEXTANTS AND ____ FARMING" and the next day "OH MORE PEOPLE ARE COPYING THEM SO THEY ONLY MAKE 3EX AN HOUR! NOT WORTH IT".

HH is THE item and that's fine. It's worthless as shit in Uber Maven fights. Ritual doesn't require one to be efficient as it's fucking timed for the most part anyways. 5Ways are 0 profit with the availability of emblems. It's still good for Simulacrum, but if you've ever bought an 84 cluster jewel you know there's teams nonstop farming them and due to cluster nerfs and how easy they are to craft they're just gambling for a good Voices at this point and just quickselling everything else at low prices.

HH is just the peak. Most people won't get one. Most people who dedicate their time to getting one CAN. It's just one of, if not the ONLY, chase item left. Remove that and then you don't have any omega level items left to buy/sell. Replica Farrul's and Voices (replica baited breath I suppose, but I sold one in Heist league and they're like a weird collector's item that probably does nothing) are the only big ticket items left. If that's not the case with the loot league mechanics of every league now you can basically find any Unique just doing Ritual/Legion/Heist now so nothing else would feel "earned".
 

LiquidDeath

Magnus Deadlift the Fucktiger
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Ok, so you want SSF to not be viable but you want it to be on parity with trade league. If SSF is on parity with trade, then trade is pretty worthless.

Um, I said SSF is only viable to do the same things as trade league for professional streamers and no lifers. I'd love for SSF to be viable as I would leave trade league behind forever. I don't mind things being difficult, I mind them being locked behind insurmountable RNG. SSF doesn't have the Mathil tax on gear, obviously, but a significant portion of builds are functionally impossible in SSF because of unique requirements and GGGs unwillingness to make all uniques target farmable in some way. I've said before and I'll say again here, it is possible to target farm a HH and if that is possible then there shouldn't be any other unique that is impossible to farm.

Oh, and yes SSF should be on par with trade league. Why the fuck do I care if trade is worthless? It is a goddamn disgraceful implementation, indefensible in a game that GGG claims is balanced around trade. I wish it would burn to the ground so that my progression wasn't stuck behind alt-tabbing and copy-pasting for hours. Seriously, fuck their stupid trade system in its fucking face. Twice.
 
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OU Ariakas

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Btw, they must have severely nerfed Ritual rewards in the last few weeks; running T16 maps and still getting trash on 90% of the rituals. I'm not even sure if items will spawn above ilvl 83. It went from a fun mechanic to pretty fucking worthless pretty quickly.
 
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OU Ariakas

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This game is incredibly SSF viable especially with Harvest core now. Like, saying you can't play SSF and then saying HH ruins trade is ????? because in the end HH brings down most shit to much more affordable prices (outside HH itself) to people who luck into exalts. If anything these mega farmers who can control a large portion, but not the entire market, can bring down the prices and still make a profit on the small stuff like 86 influenced bases in Legion league. They weren't what they were farming, they wanted timeless jewels, so everything "else" which was still SUPER FUCKING HARD TO GET they just sold quickly for quick profit. This helped the lower and middle tier players grab up shit they'd never have been able to afford other wise. It's like 6L astrals with influence. These conglomerates splitting them nonstop is great. Why? Because you can get any influenced 6L astral for any build you want for 45c. 3 leagues ago they would've been 20 ex. It's a buyers market and there's a handful of items that are expensive now and even then the relative prices of HH has gone down with the many, many paths to obtaining one.

Since this isn't EQ and there's isn't "OW" shit everyone can work their way up and become a farmlord. They can all enter the market, but their profit as well as the other farmlords profits will fall slightly. That's how that works. So a lot of people go "OH EMPYRIAN IS MAKING 7EX AN HOUR USING SEXTANTS AND ____ FARMING" and the next day "OH MORE PEOPLE ARE COPYING THEM SO THEY ONLY MAKE 3EX AN HOUR! NOT WORTH IT".

HH is THE item and that's fine. It's worthless as shit in Uber Maven fights. Ritual doesn't require one to be efficient as it's fucking timed for the most part anyways. 5Ways are 0 profit with the availability of emblems. It's still good for Simulacrum, but if you've ever bought an 84 cluster jewel you know there's teams nonstop farming them and due to cluster nerfs and how easy they are to craft they're just gambling for a good Voices at this point and just quickselling everything else at low prices.

HH is just the peak. Most people won't get one. Most people who dedicate their time to getting one CAN. It's just one of, if not the ONLY, chase item left. Remove that and then you don't have any omega level items left to buy/sell. Replica Farrul's and Voices (replica baited breath I suppose, but I sold one in Heist league and they're like a weird collector's item that probably does nothing) are the only big ticket items left. If that's not the case with the loot league mechanics of every league now you can basically find any Unique just doing Ritual/Legion/Heist now so nothing else would feel "earned".

Harvest going core doesn't make SSF viable for normies. I am an above average player running T16 in Lex Proxima with all Harvest buffs and still only seeing it once every 15 to 20 maps. Add in the fact that getting the add/remove, add, or remove augs are still as rare as they were in the actual league and you have a mechanic only viable for the top 10% of players, if that.
 

Deathwing

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I think we're talking past each other a bit. Let me try to be succinct.

I don't want access to any content to be affected by other players. Access as intended by the developers is fine barring stupid decisions. Depending on trade for rare item availability would be one of those.
 
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OU Ariakas

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I think we're talking past each other a bit. Let me try to be succinct.

I don't want access to any content to be affected by other players. Access as intended by the developers is fine barring stupid decisions. Depending on trade for rare item availability would be one of those.

I really like POE but some of GGGs asinine decisions the last two years have actually made me think Blizzard has a chance to make a huge impact if they dont fuck up D4 and address some of the itemization issues prevalent in POE/D3.

I honestly do not want to even entertain the idea of buying D4, and it makes me sad that GGG is giving Blizzard the opportunity to get more money from me.

Even typing all that I think D4 will be trash because Blizzard cannot get out of their own way.
 

AladainAF

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Um, I said SSF is only viable to do the same things as trade league for professional streamers and no lifers. I'd love for SSF to be viable as I would leave trade league behind forever. I don't mind things being difficult, I mind them being locked behind insurmountable RNG. SSF doesn't have the Mathil tax on gear, obviously, but a significant portion of builds are functionally impossible in SSF because of unique requirements and GGGs unwillingness to make all uniques target farmable in some way. I've said before and I'll say again here, it is possible to target farm a HH and if that is possible then there shouldn't be any other unique that is impossible to farm.

Oh, and yes SSF should be on par with trade league. Why the fuck do I care if trade is worthless? It is a goddamn disgraceful implementation, indefensible in a game that GGG claims is balanced around trade. I wish it would burn to the ground so that my progression wasn't stuck behind alt-tabbing and copy-pasting for hours. Seriously, fuck their stupid trade system in its fucking face. Twice.

You're making an argument about the viability of SSF in a league that saw someone in hardcore SSF beat the league end game content after 27 hours real time after league start. Kinda a small argument there. As for builds being impossible on SSF, this is no different than trade league. Grimro's cold BV is probably an "impossible" trade league build. That is just as impossible on trade league as it is on SSF, such as getting large/medium clusters perfect, a voices perfect, etc. You probably wont even find what you need on the market to make it completely work.

At the end, though, every build in the game is farmable. I'm curious which uniques aren't target farmable that are critical to a build.

If you don't care if trade is worthless, then why do you care that it is not? Why does this matter one way or another?
 

AladainAF

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Harvest going core doesn't make SSF viable for normies. I am an above average player running T16 in Lex Proxima with all Harvest buffs and still only seeing it once every 15 to 20 maps. Add in the fact that getting the add/remove, add, or remove augs are still as rare as they were in the actual league and you have a mechanic only viable for the top 10% of players, if that.

Yet, somehow, the "pro players" have gear in SSF in a week that rivals what most players see during an entire league. Are we going to start implying that harvest never appears for them? Or perhaps do they have a better strategy than you?