Racism - Lets keep it civil. Also, Gravy is white.

Agraza · Sep 29, 2015

a lot of it was just sexual selection of attraction. slanty eyed girls were probably considered sexy as hell and were preferentially raped enough to set the course for that branch of humanity. not everything is based on physical fitness to survive. that's a big deal over the course of time, but founder effect can throw off isolated communities wildly, and that's where blonde hair and samoan features got a foothold as well. Incest provides for hyper-evolution, ballooning X trait from 3% of the population to 40% in a few generations, which is likely a large contributor to the founder effect in most places.

chthonic-anemos · Sep 29, 2015

lendarios_sl said:
What evolutionary purpose does slant eyes have? Or Samoan features? Or blonde hair. Or whatever brown people have.

brown = evolved against sun damage

Cad · Sep 29, 2015

Erronius_sl said:
The problem I have with #2 (All races are inherently equal and most of what we see as racial differences are cultural differences, and treating people differently based on race is stupidity in general) is that the culture issue cuts both ways and someone who is racist can argue that"all blacks are lazy"isn't racist because it's based on black culture, or that saying all Muslims are rapists and use specific cultural examples to then extrapolate onto everyone.

I had an argument along these lines on FB not long after Ferguson:

Person on FB:"All blacks are too lazy to work, they want handouts and to burn stuff"
Me:"Um...don't you think that's a LITTLE racist? I guess maybe that fits SOME people, but all black people? C'mon now"
Person on FB:"No, bro, you don't get it. It's not because they're black, it's because of black culture, so I'm not being racist."
Me:"Bullshit, that's totally fucking racist. You can't just say that about an ENTIRE RACE and then use culture as an excuse"
Person on FB:"You need to educate yourself. This is why we have a problem with blacks in America, it's their culture"

My argument with Fanaskin over Ben Carson went in a similar direction. Fana wanted to cherrypick specific areas of the Muslim world (Syria/Iraq) and apply that to all Muslims, as if that is justification to take such a broad brush to Muslims everywhere. But if I had argued that this was racist, he and others would likely have fallen back to what I had been arguing...that it was cultural. Except I wasn't making an"All Muslims are X because of Shithole Y"argument, I was more pointing out that you cant just call all Muslims child-rapists because there are some idiots in Afghanistan who support bacha bazi.

I'm probably just pissing in the wind here and am alone on this, but whatevs.

You're encountering a #3 trying to masquerade as a #2 to make his belief seem more reasonable.

If he were a true #2 (no true scotsman, ahoy) then he'd be saying "this only applies to blacks or whites or mexicans with this particular brand of inner city thug lyfe culture. There are lots of blacks from the suburbs that are just like you and me. However, there's a large subset that do adhere to this culture because they were raised in it or its their thing or whatever, and those guys are a big problem."

Your guy is just a #3 trying to make racism seem ok by calling it something else.

Lanx · Sep 29, 2015

Agraza_sl said:
a lot of it was just sexual selection of attraction. slanty eyed girls were probably considered sexy as hell and were preferentially raped enough to set the course for that branch of humanity.

he's mostly the reason why, slant eyes or the epicanthic fold is pretty much a northern/Mongol trait. Khan invaded and conquered the Han and slant eye was a pretty dominant trait needed for survival in the north with wind/sand/sun glare. Which is pretty evident cuz eskimos (i know its slang to call them that, but who cares) still got really slanty eyes.

why do i know? cuz of years of telling white ppl otherwise.

lendarios_sl said:
Or Samoan features?

have you seen Black Adam?

Lendarios · Sep 29, 2015

needed for survival in the north with wind/sand/sun glare.

Not true.
In other regions of the world with similar geography, slanted eyes were not evolved. Africans and middle eastern don't have slanted eyes, and they have some of the largest desert areas in the planet. Even Australia with his huge desert, did not developed slanted eyes as an adaptation.
What ever the reason was for slanted eyes, unique natural conditions was not one of them.

Lanx · Sep 29, 2015

lendarios_sl said:
Not true.
In other regions of the world with similar geography, slanted eyes were not evolved. Africans and middle eastern don't have slanted eyes, and they have some of the largest desert areas in the planet. Even Australia with his huge desert, did not developed slanted eyes as an adaptation.
What ever the reason was for slanted eyes, unique natural conditions was not one of them.

yea none of those places have sun glare (snow)

Tuco · Sep 29, 2015

Erronius_sl said:
The problem I have with #2 (All races are inherently equal and most of what we see as racial differences are cultural differences, and treating people differently based on race is stupidity in general) is that the culture issue cuts both ways and someone who is racist can argue that"all blacks are lazy"isn't racist because it's based on black culture, or that saying all Muslims are rapists and use specific cultural examples to then extrapolate onto everyone.

I had an argument along these lines on FB not long after Ferguson:

Person on FB:"All blacks are too lazy to work, they want handouts and to burn stuff"
Me:"Um...don't you think that's a LITTLE racist? I guess maybe that fits SOME people, but all black people? C'mon now"
Person on FB:"No, bro, you don't get it. It's not because they're black, it's because of black culture, so I'm not being racist."
Me:"Bullshit, that's totally fucking racist. You can't just say that about an ENTIRE RACE and then use culture as an excuse"
Person on FB:"You need to educate yourself. This is why we have a problem with blacks in America, it's their culture"

My argument with Fanaskin over Ben Carson went in a similar direction. Fana wanted to cherrypick specific areas of the Muslim world (Syria/Iraq) and apply that to all Muslims, as if that is justification to take such a broad brush to Muslims everywhere. But if I had argued that this was racist, he and others would likely have fallen back to what I had been arguing...that it was cultural. Except I wasn't making an"All Muslims are X because of Shithole Y"argument, I was more pointing out that you cant just call all Muslims child-rapists because there are some idiots in Afghanistan who support bacha bazi.

I'm probably just pissing in the wind here and am alone on this, but whatevs.

I agree 100%.

However, the dude who recognizes that his bigotry is due to a given culture is both more correct than a true racial bigot and more able to readjust his opinion and work with members of a race he is generally bigoted toward.

There are real bonafide racists that see a given culture as the result of 'bad blood' in some race. These people see an upstanding member of some race and view it as an anomaly or time bomb before the individual reverts to their 'natural order'.

BrutulTM · Sep 29, 2015

Khane_sl said:
You sound very out of touch with the realities of small town America and/or ghettos.

What do you know about small town america? Where I grew up (and live now) is as rural as rural gets and I think racial attitudes pretty much mirror the rest of America. My grandparents generation were racist as hell, my baby boom parents generation maybe a little bit, 90% of people from my generation are not and the kids don't even think about it. I don't think "the realities" of small town America are that different from anywhere else. I can't speak to the ghettos from personal experience but IMO coming from a rural area is no excuse for being racist. It's not like we're shut off from the world anymore.

Erronius · Sep 29, 2015

Palum_sl said:
1) Culture and a belief system are two distinct things. You can be part of a culture and have different viewpoints or attitudes or variations in following customs. Having a belief system and then not following it just makes you a hypocrite or not really part of that belief system.

Are no Christians actually Christian then because they don't stone people? I know you aren't literally saying that, but if we go down the 'belief system/hypocrite' path, will we end up at a place where the Westboro Baptist Church is right?

I don't really want to get into a religion derail, I just feel that people are either ignorant or dishonest when they make sweeping generalizations based on localized examples that can be explained better by culture, but many don't want to acknowledge culture except as an excuse.

Palum_sl said:
2) It's not fair to call all Muslims child rapists just because the Afghanis do it (honestly not sure if it's specific regions or what), but at the same time you cannot make that claim and then double down saying it's unfair to criticize Afghani culture (or whichever relevant parts) because it's 'just the way they do things' which seems to be the natural extension of SJW protectionism for shitty ideas.

I disagree with the SJWs on that as much as I disagree people edging into racism and using culture as a shield.

Palum_sl said:
So the point I would make is in your example there is a toxic (lololol SJW word) culture in parts of Ferguson and other cities of crime, lack of community, respect, etc. that does need to be vilified yet no one appears to be willing to call it out because it would be racist to say that you're an asshole for stealing from and burning down your neighbor's convenience store and that has nothing to do with civil rights.

I always feel like I end up in the middle somewhere. I can acknowledge that there is something wrong if part of a community reacts that way any time someone gets shot, but at the same time I can empathize with how frustrations over systemic mistreatment can push people to the boiling point. What worries me a bit is that once that officer was cleared, a ton of people took that as a "I was right" and completely disengaged from further thought or discussion. When the DOJ report came out, I literally got"But Wilson was cleared"responses when I brought it up, as if to some the DOJ report didn't even exist. I'm not some SJW bumping fists with Tanoomba, but it doesn't feel like much of anything has changed. Oh, Ferguson itself will change, but I'm sure that there will be countless areas like Ferguson that won't.

EDIT: I also apologize if we aren't on the same page, or if I am not clearly understanding what you're saying here. I'm just starting coffee #1 now.

Palum · Sep 29, 2015

Nah we're pretty much on the same page I was just expanding on your example because it's one of those types of things where the "this dude is actually racist" means that once a racist is found no more criticism can take place because racism is wrong and therefore any observations made by a racist are wrong so you have to believe otherwise.

I do believe their are good people living in Ferguson, for instance, but to say that the rioters were all individuals who came to individual conclusions to do violence and not the result of some cultural sameness or groupthink or some other form of community that supported the growth and perception that allowed the actions taken is equally as fallacious. It's just very difficult to say anything these days about simple bad ideas without being branded a bigot. To be fair, I don't support censorship but rather the lack of capacity to directly challenge shitty ideas (like maybe your child should get antibiotics to live instead of a double dose of prayer, or maybe thug culture belongs in the teenage rebellious years but not as a lifestyle choice as it hurts your employment opportunities) does do harm.

Khane · Sep 29, 2015

I'll just say I think many defenders of "equality" (I feel the need to put that in quotes because everyone has a different definition it seems) make the mistake of believing the people they are fighting for are completely helpless, don't know any better, and doing what we as society have made them do. A lot of that is nonsense, people know what they are doing. There is nobody on earth that doesn't know killing, robbery, etc are wrong and that it shouldn't be tolerated in a functional, decent society. But there is definitely some truth to it as well.

When a young child has no real home, no opportunity, no love and no role models they will latch onto the first thing that shows them any semblance of acceptance and camaraderie. It's a pretty awful self-perpetuating cycle but when a child has no one they feel loves them they will attach themselves to the first person who does show them love. It might be a decent person in the community, it might be a drug dealer, it might be a gang, it might be religious zealots, it might be a youth leader. But whoever gets to that kid first is going to shape them in ways that are hard to break, especially if they never get any love, attention and sense of belonging from anyone else. Basically in bad places like these it's a constant struggle and psychological war... for 8 year olds. It can have some pretty terrible consequences and it's apparent the cycle continues over and over from generation to generation until someone from the outside steps in to try to help. They might break out of that mindset once they are older and start browsing the web as you say, but I think it's more likely they'll just use the internet for the same thing a vast majority of people in the world use it for. Porn and Entertainment. And the entertainment industry isn't doing anything but furthering stereotypes.

Sylverlokk · Sep 29, 2015

lanx_sl said:
yea none of those places have sun glare (snow)

Yeah or it might have something to do with the way moisture and tears in the eyes are best handled in cold versus hot regions. The point is simply saying races are unequal in any way is enough to get you branded a racist, when logically the far more absurd position to take is that every race is perfectly equal at everything. That leads to some Harrison Bergeron type SJW BS. Acknowledging that individuals, cultures, races, religions and sexes all have their "bonuses" is only an '-ism' if you use that as a basis to disparage or discriminate.

Tenks · Sep 29, 2015

I don't think anyone will call you a racist for saying Asian people have slanted eyes or African Americans are black

Hoss · Sep 29, 2015

lendarios_sl said:
What evolutionary purpose does slant eyes have? Or Samoan features? Or blonde hair. Or whatever brown people have.

This derail is pretty much openly trolling hodj. If he shows up and gets punished by draegan, lendarios and everyone else pontificating about evolution should get the same punishment.

Palum · Sep 29, 2015

Khane_sl said:
I'll just say I think many defenders of "equality" (I feel the need to put that in quotes because everyone has a different definition it seems) make the mistake of believing the people they are fighting for are completely helpless, don't know any better, and doing what we as society have made them do. A lot of that is nonsense, people know what they are doing. There is nobody on earth that doesn't know killing, robbery, etc are wrong and that it shouldn't be tolerated in a functional, decent society. But there is definitely some truth to it as well.

When a young child has no real home, no opportunity, no love and no role models they will latch onto the first thing that shows them any semblance of acceptance and camaraderie. It's a pretty awful self-perpetuating cycle but when a child has no one they feel loves them they will attach themselves to the first person who does show them love. It might be a decent person in the community, it might be a drug dealer, it might be a gang, it might be religious zealots, it might be a youth leader. But whoever gets to that kid first is going to shape them in ways that are hard to break, especially if they never get any love, attention and sense of belonging from anyone else. Basically in bad places like these it's a constant struggle and psychological war... for 8 year olds. It can have some pretty terrible consequences and it's apparent the cycle continues over and over from generation to generation until someone from the outside steps in to try to help. They might break out of that mindset once they are older and start browsing the web as you say, but I think it's more likely they'll just use the internet for the same thing a vast majority of people in the world use it for. Porn and Entertainment. And the entertainment industry isn't doing anything but furthering stereotypes.

I agree that there are people that even in 2015 still are basically slaves to their upbringing. I don't fault an 8 year old who gets abducted by a cult and released 30 years later for not being an adjusted adult or someone whoactuallylives in a ghetto (IE, no 4G LTE coverage) either. I just find it too convenient to continue blaming the idea of 'xyz culture', at least in the US. I assume for those who have a lot of connections/culture it sucks self-exiling once you realize you need to do better but that's basically repeated throughout history and certainly in the US. At some point you have to have responsibility for being A) a bigot or B) a worthless member of society and neither of those things really have nothing to do with race except incidentally some can be more easily defined as a group through skin color even if it is lazy.

Khane · Sep 29, 2015

Palum_sl said:
I agree that there are people that even in 2015 still are basically slaves to their upbringing. I don't fault an 8 year old who gets abducted by a cult and released 30 years later for not being an adjusted adult or someone whoactuallylives in a ghetto (IE, no 4G LTE coverage) either. I just find it too convenient to continue blaming the idea of 'xyz culture', at least in the US. I assume for those who have a lot of connections/culture it sucks self-exiling once you realize you need to do better but that's basically repeated throughout history and certainly in the US. At some point you have to have responsibility for being A) a bigot or B) a worthless member of society and neither of those things really have nothing to do with race except incidentally some can be more easily defined as a group through skin color even if it is lazy.

I think many, if not most people actually do snap out of it and try to change things. A lot of documentaries I've seen on gangs and drugs that focus on American ghettos interview men that were once filled with the ideas they were fed as kids and eventually realized how fucked up their lives and actions were. Focusing on just that one type of culture the focal point seems to be that by the time these men start acting like men and put aside that kind of behavior it's too late. They're either dead or convicted felons who can't get jobs. That awakening and education on how life can and should be in decent society happens way later than it should.

Brahma has mentioned his upbringing and surroundings in a few other threads on this forum, he was fortunate enough to have some people in his life that could guide him away from drugs and crime whereas a lot of kids he grew up with did not. People have to want to help themselves otherwise there is no helping them, but I feel society as a whole benefits when certain classes of people aren't ignored and left to rot in their own terrible surroundings.

Anyway I think we agree on the whole. We just have varying degrees of compassion.

Palum · Sep 29, 2015

I do have compassion, but I do not think that feeling sorry for people is a solution nor that everyone in any particular group is universally disadvantaged. Retrograde influences need to be called out as shitty instead of protected as 'culture' or 'just the way things are' or 'religion' or whatever else you want to name it. The problem is that it seems so many people are incapable of discussing ideas without calling any criticism racism/phobia/fascism/whatever. So when it gets suggested maybe some kids should not be allowed to listen to rap, post pics with guns on facebook, etc. and have exposure to positive role models that's racist because... reasons. The fact is that many parents are shitty and need to be admonished but again, that's racism/reliigious oppression/invasion of privacy/whatever.

I just don't see how you fix anything while one side wants to do nothing and the other side thinks any criticism is racism.

Tuco · Sep 30, 2015

Hoss_sl said:
This derail is pretty much openly trolling hodj. If he shows up and gets punished by draegan, lendarios and everyone else pontificating about evolution should get the same punishment.

Not sure what you're talking about, evolution is 100% appropriate to this thread. And Hodj would probably have a lot to contribute on that front.

hodj · Sep 30, 2015

I've been reading the thread I just haven't posted anything in it because I didn't want to bog it down in a lot of technical discussion of what and how race is defined biologically, and why human populations don't rise to that level and whatnot.

I wrote a 40 page paper on the subject for my anthropology capstone class, and I could have easily written another 200 plus pages, all just tackling Nicholas Wade's book.

If people are interested, I can provide some links to some of the more recent academic works on the subject.

Lendarios · Sep 30, 2015

Hoss_sl said:
This derail is pretty much openly trolling hodj. If he shows up and gets punished by draegan, lendarios and everyone else pontificating about evolution should get the same punishment.

Punishment for what? Hojd typing diarrhea is not my problem.

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