Racism - Lets keep it civil. Also, Gravy is white.

hodj

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The only post by lendarios in this thread Ive seen or read were on this page and we arent in disagreement on the subject of slanted eye.

Phenotype is pointless in talking about subspecies/race when it comes to modern human populations.

The real debate is about SNP clustering in and between continental populations and how that may or may not explain or contribute to our understanding of human biodiversity.
 

Cad

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The only post by lendarios in this thread Ive seen or read were on this page and we arent in disagreement on the subject of slanted eye.

Phenotype is pointless in talking about subspecies/race when it comes to modern human populations.

The real debate is about SNP clustering in and between continental populations and how that may or may not explain or contribute to our understanding of human biodiversity.
Really the only question we need science to answer, and I mean this with all non-racism intent, to settle the question:

Are people of african ancestry predisposed to lower intelligence on average than people of east asian or northern european ancestry? Similar question for those of Mexican or latin american ancestry. And if so, why?

Similarly, are people of african ancestry more robust physically, either stronger, faster, more durable, or otherwise superior than people with northern european ancestry etc.

If a totally non-biased group came out with some good research and showed average traits, that'd be interesting.

But other than that, we're just talking about do people we perceive as black deserve to be treated differently because of it, and the answer has got to be no.

People who act stupid deserve to be treated stupid, regardless of race. People who act right deserve to be treated right, regardless of race. The end.
 

hodj

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Bell curve was debunked like two decades ago, though.

The modern debate in academia really is more concerned with application to medicine and such.

When I get home Ill dig up some citations on this stuff for you.

But even the way the question is phrased presumes european and asian dominance, ignores the historical facts of colonialism, etc

But when it comes to the genome, Africa has the highest variation of all continents, and the continent is massive. Trying to boil it all down to averages between more homogenous groups formed by founder effect to more heterogenous groups makes an error from the get go.

Its a very complicated subject. I mean its understandable that westerners dont really grasp the vast diversity and size of African populations, but that goes to the crux of the issue of trying to define populations on continental divisons and averages. If the human species is a tree, and the various continents are populated by branches which indicate subspecies, then Africa is actually the root system and trunk of the tree, and all populations are nested within Africa first.

What this means for the question youre asking is that it becomes sort of nonsensical. Europeans ARE Africans. So are asians. The time difference from when these groups left Africa in the first place to populate these continents hasnt been long enough for distinct evolutionary lineages to form, and gene flow between these populations has been too robust to justify this division between these populations that the question presumes in the first place!
 

Cad

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What this means for the question youre asking is that it becomes sort of nonsensical. Europeans ARE Africans. So are asians. The time difference from when these groups left Africa in the first place to populate these continents hasnt been long enough, and gene flow between these populations has been too robust to justify this division between these populations that the question presumes in the first place!
Then narrow the question to african americans and white/northern european americans.

Unless you're trying to say there's really no genetic difference or diversity within each group overwhelms the difference between the groups?

If so, are things like the NBA just cultural, more black kids play basketball so they end up being better?
 

hodj

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It really doesnt change the answer to more narrowly define the question. African Americans and white Euro Americans are still just as related as they would be otherwise and more so since the two populations are now in closer contact and interbreeding so even more gene flow is occurring.

When a bottleneck is removed two populations that were separated that begin interbredding again begin converging in terms of gene frequency again.

Unless you're trying to say there's really no genetic difference or diversity within each group overwhelms the difference between the groups?
That's one component of it, the diversity within populations is much greater than the overall diversity between them.

If so, are things like the NBA just cultural, more black kids play basketball so they end up being better?
This type of question, no offense Cad, but is the problem with trying to discuss race as a biological concept in the general public. Citing basketball capabilities as a racial component is just silly.

One of the biggest reasons African Americans are good at basketball is because they tend to play on hard surfaces growing up, such as concrete and blacktop, which causes their leg bones and muscles to strengthen more during development, so then when they go to play in professional settings, they are able to jump higher and whatnot because the surface of the arenas is softer and more flexible. That's why Rick Pitino when he was here at UK went and recruited mostly black athletes from places like New York to come play here. Also practice makes perfect. And they get a lot of practice in in these inner city urban communities, where electronics and other hobbies and distractions aren't as widely available, so they spend more time playing. A 10 dollar basketball is a lot easier to keep and maintain than a 2000 dollar computer.

If we're going to discuss this, let's try to not get all silly season, looking at really ridiculous metrics. Scientists are not concerned with who is better at throwing a ball into a hoop when they are discussing race. We're looking at the variation in allele frequencies between and within populations, particularly the small nucleotide polymorphisms, which is the variation at individual genetic locations between various populations, to see if the variation rises to a level that is commonly accepted in other areas of biology to determine classifications of subspecies among other species.
 

Picasso3

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75% of nba players while 12% of the population because they play on pavement, that's racist.
 

Lendarios

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Also Cad, lets assume, this as a big IF, If basketball skills had any influence over natural selection processes, the number of generations is way to small. We are talking at most 3 generations, I don't think that is enough to see any changes compared to the general population, on any given genetic trait.
 

Cad

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This type of question, no offense Cad, but is the problem with trying to discuss race as a biological concept in the general public. Citing basketball capabilities as a racial component is just silly.

One of the biggest reasons African Americans are good at basketball is because they tend to play on hard surfaces growing up, such as concrete and blacktop, which causes their leg bones and muscles to strengthen more during development, so then when they go to play in professional settings, they are able to jump higher and whatnot because the surface of the arenas is softer and more flexible. That's why Rick Pitino when he was here at UK went and recruited mostly black athletes from places like New York to come play here. Also practice makes perfect. And they get a lot of practice in in these inner city urban communities, where electronics and other hobbies and distractions aren't as widely available, so they spend more time playing. A 10 dollar basketball is a lot easier to keep and maintain than a 2000 dollar computer.

If we're going to discuss this, let's try to not get all silly season, looking at really ridiculous metrics. Scientists are not concerned with who is better at throwing a ball into a hoop when they are discussing race. We're looking at the variation in allele frequencies between and within populations, particularly the small nucleotide polymorphisms, which is the variation at individual genetic locations between various populations, to see if the variation rises to a level that is commonly accepted in other areas of biology to determine classifications of subspecies among other species.
I mean, how can you talk about racism without bringing up that blacks are fucking awesome at all kinds of sports, basically anything they as a group apply themselves to, they dominate. You can hand-wave that away and talk about alleles and shit and thats fine, whatever. But back in the real world, black kids are fucking awesome at sports. Haha.

But basically what you're saying is, if more white kids played basketball then they'd be just as good at it? Or football or running track, or what have you? Thats the science position?
 

Cad

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Also Cad, lets assume, this as a big IF, If basketball skills had any influence over natural selection processes, the number of generations is way to small. We are talking at most 3 generations, I don't think that is enough to see any changes compared to the general population, on any given genetic trait.
Wtf, nobody said this. The supposition would be that blacks have traits that make them incrementally stronger/faster/more coordinated than their peers, and this really comes out at the top .001% of players which the NBA represents.
 

Tenks

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Blacks are more naturally athletically gifted. Are we really trying to pretend like they are not? Now don't get me wrong I don't think natural athleticism is really an indication of better natural selection nor do I think NBA talents really translate well to hunter/gatherer or anything like that but the fact remains blacks (be it African American or African) can generally run longer, run faster and jump higher.
 

hodj

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40-50 years ago no black players were in the NBA. In fact, Coach Rupp here in Kentucky fought against allowing blacks in to play because he didn't think they could function in team sports and that whites were superior.

Its not racist. Its just silly stereotypes and superficial irrelevancies. Phenotype is not relevant. Genotype is what is relevant in the discussion of race.

This is why I didn't bother posting in this thread till now. Because this is a subject that is best handled academically, there's just too much baggage in the general culture, and too many ingrained memes and ideas that are functionally pointless to discuss.

What biologists use to measure subspecies, which is what races would be, is FST values, the fixation index, and it is a measure of population differentiation due to genetic structure. It is estimated from small nucleotide polymorphisms. Only the most distal of human populations rise close to the accepted values of FST that would be used to define racial classifications, and the intervening populations between these groups, for which gene flow is generally very high, do not rise to those values.

Its just a subject that people without the understanding of how biologists determine subspecies and how human genetic variation actually is have a really hard time wrapping their heads around. Not because they are stupid, or dumb, but because they aren't educated in these areas. I don't know how to play guitar or how to do what Tuco does in regards to programming and engineering, any more than I know how to be a lawyer like Cad. Its the same situation.
 

Tenks

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40-50 years ago no black players were in the NBA. In fact, Coach Rupp here in Kentucky fought against allowing blacks in to play because he didn't think they could function in team sports and that whites were superior.
How is an ancient racist man from a racist state any proof that whites are just as good as blacks at basketball?
 

Palum

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I've heard that gingers get the gum disease gingervitis more often as well.
 

Cad

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40-50 years ago no black players were in the NBA. In fact, Coach Rupp here in Kentucky fought against allowing blacks in to play because he didn't think they could function in team sports and that whites were superior..
You're just reinforcing the point. Now that blacks are allowed to play and it's purely who is the best player, blacks are far and away the most dominant players.

This is not a meme:

With 1155 players, the black population of the NFL runs away with a 68% majority. In a distant second are the 470 white players who make up 28% of the league.
This is not a meme:

the NBA in 2011 was composed of 78 percent black players, 17 percent white players, four percent Latinos (of any race), and one percent Asian.
How are these memes? These are *facts*.
 

Picasso3

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Of course a geneticist from Kentucky would say no blacks in the nba 50 years ago wasn't racist.
 

Cad

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Of course a geneticist from Kentucky would say no blacks in the nba 50 years ago wasn't racist.
I think his real point is "black and white is a meaningless distinction anyway so you guys are all idiots"
 

BrutulTM

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I don't like reading Hodj posts so I didn't but I have heard it explained that because everyone came from Africa and all other races are an off-shoot of that, Africa is the most genetically diverse part of the world and as a result has produced more outliers. Yes the fastest runner in the world is likely to be black, but so is the slowest runner. We don't have contests to evaluate who the slowest runner in the world is, so people tend to think that black people are only exceptional on the good side of the ledger.
 

hodj

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How is an ancient racist man from a racist state any proof that whites are just as good as blacks at basketball?
I'm pointing out that cultural memes are very powerful at dictating how culture perceives these sorts of issues.

Phenotype is what the general population sees. That's why they perceive different races and different groupings. Pointing to things like "Well X are just GREAT at Y, therefore race is real!" is just the exact sort of stuff that anyone in the scientific community trying to explain the issue from the level of the genome has to deal with, and all of that stuff based on what you're seeing on a phenotypic level, is just irrelevant from the scientific standpoint.

We do not use morphology in modern populations of any species to determine if they are separate species, or subspecies, etc. We only use morphology in populations so ancient that genomes are unknowable because the DNA is degraded. That's how the modern field of biology works.

The human species is varied because the human genome is incredibly plastic with the environment, which includes the cultural environment. But the underlying genetic foundation is not divisible in a way which is sensical and consistent with subspecies/race.

Like I said before, the main reason I was staying out of this thread was because I didn't want to bog it down with the technical details of genetics, and we're seeing that happen now.

People tend to conflate phenotypic variation with actual genetic variation. But that simply isn't how it works. You and I may have the same allele at the same location for, say, height, but because you had better access to nutrition and medical care as a child than I did, or you underwent less physiological or other stresses during development, or because you were raised in a warmer environment, where I was raised in a colder environment, or you were raised at a level closer to sea level than I was, maybe you're 6 feet 3 inches, and I'm only 5 foot 10. Does this make sense to you? This is how plastic the human genome can be with the environment.

Of course a geneticist from Kentucky would say no blacks in the nba 50 years ago wasn't racist.
That's like 180 degrees out of phase with the point I was making.

This forum is supposed to be about having adult discussions and not trolling.

I think his real point is "black and white is a meaningless distinction anyway so you guys are all idiots"
I explicitly said that your misunderstanding does not indicate stupidity, but rather a lack of education in a very highly technical field.