Rings of Power: Tolkien's Shambling Skinsuit

Chukzombi said:

there is a faithful adaption, then there is a mostly faithful adaption with dialogue written in the style and tone for the ip which Peter Jackson did and then there is Rings of Power which is "inspired by" using the lack of dialogue as a clean slate to make up any woke garbage that they want no matter if Tolkien was ok with it or not. clean slate means Tolkien's works has no impact. just whats in the inexperienced writer's head. you know this series hired expert overseeing this at first, he showed dismay at what was going on and voiced his opinion. he was fired.

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I don't disagree with any of that. If they're truly interested in a "clean slate" then they can go and invent their own mythology and convince another billionaire to bankroll a show about it.

It's just that realistic expectations around any dramatic / narrative format show based on these particular books should largely be: non or very-loosely-based-on-Tolkien stories set in Tolkien locations with Tolkien characters, even in its best possible form. The only real way to do it even close to "right" would be to present it in some sort of documentary format.

zignor 4 said:

The only real way to do it even close to "right" would be to present it in some sort of documentary format.

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You've said this a couple times. What do you mean?

popsicledeath said:

You've said this a couple times. What do you mean?

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The Silmarillion in particular is essentially an encyclopedia of mythology ordered chronologically rather than alphabetically. There are a few short stories thrown in that in themselves might potentially make for decent standalone TV shows in very skilled hands, but they're the exception.

If something were done in almost like the style of the GoT Blu-Ray history vignettes, but in live action, that could be amazing. It could cover a lot of the key components of the mythology right from the beginning, including origin stories, battles, the machinations of Melkor / Sauron, the debates of the Valar and the Elves regarding how to deal them, etc, etc, all in a compelling way and without the need to invent mountains of dialogue and connective threads out of whole cloth.

How awesome would it be to watch Gothmog stomp into Gondolin while understanding why it's happening and what it means, without having to endure a bunch of derpy dialogue or stilted exposition that a typical narrative show would call for?

But my canonnnnnnn

zignor 4 said:

The Silmarillion in particular is essentially an encyclopedia of mythology ordered chronologically rather than alphabetically. There are a few short stories thrown in that in themselves might potentially make for decent standalone TV shows in very skilled hands, but they're the exception.

If something were done in almost like the style of the GoT Blu-Ray history vignettes, but in live action, that could be amazing. It could cover a lot of the key components of the mythology right from the beginning, including origin stories, battles, the machinations of Melkor / Sauron, the debates of the Valar and the Elves regarding how to deal them, etc, etc, all in a compelling way and without the need to invent mountains of dialogue and connective threads out of whole cloth.

How awesome would it be to watch Gothmog stomp into Gondolin while understanding why it's happening and what it means, without having to endure a bunch of derpy dialogue or stilted exposition that a typical narrative show would call for?

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Ah, documentary format.... Still don't understand.

They could also just focusing on telling the story of the history and world without derpy dialog or exposition that is stilted?

You seem to think bad writers or producers can be made good by simply calling what form they're using by a different term. Why wouldn't they just fuck up a documentary format too?

popsicledeath said:

Ah, documentary format.... Still don't understand.

They could also just focusing on telling the story of the history and world without derpy dialog or exposition that is stilted?

You seem to think bad writers or producers can be made good by simply calling what form they're using by a different term. Why wouldn't they just fuck up a documentary format too?

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I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse here, although I suppose it's also possible you have never read the Silmarillion and have no idea what he's talking about.

Here's an example that might make it clearer

Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä. Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.

Of the Valar
The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa.

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How would you go about faithfully adapting that to a TV show ? You could do something similar to what fellowship did, with Cate Blanchett narrating it over interesting background images, but it's possible that would get a bit old after the first 8 hours or so.

The Silmarillion is essentially a history textbook.

velk said:

I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse here, although I suppose it's also possible you have never read the Silmarillion and have no idea what he's talking about.

Here's an example that might make it clearer



How would you go about faithfully adapting that to a TV show ? You could do something similar to what fellowship did, with Cate Blanchett narrating it over interesting background images, but it's possible that would get a bit old after the first 8 hours or so.

The Silmarillion is essentially a history textbook.

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The fun thing is people saying others are illiterate or being deliberately obtuse are the ones who don't seem to know what adapting a script actually means. What do you think "faithfully adapting" a source into a tv show would mean? That they couldn't have dialog if the dialog wasn't already in the source material? That they'd have to simply have someone narrating the literal written word if it wasn't already in fleshed out story format? Again, ignorant people who aren't smart enough to process entertainment, much less understand how it's created.

You simply take the source material, understand it, respect it, and make it into stories that focus on being a fair and faithful representation of the IP. Again, nobody gives a shit if they have to add in dialog or cut out long ass fucking songs.

It's very telling how bad the entertainment industries have gotten, because we have retards arguing as if the options are either a documentary format (wtf?) with, what, direct narration of the text, or I guess the other option is them just making random shit up and changing what little is very clearly outlined like character's skin color as the writers and producers focus on making a story directly engage with modern political and social causes and tackle representation of black and indigenous English actors of color.

They literally just have to understand the source material and pull what they can from it to make it into stories about the IP and source material and not virtue signal to the faggots who don't even like the IP that much or the nerds who will turn a blind eye to retarded shit under the guise it's fantasy so there are no rules to follow.

And if they didn't feel the source material was rich enough to make a show out of it, then they should have just fucking passed and done something else. It seems like they intentionally wanted to tackle this source material because they felt it absolved them from being true and respectful to the IP and could make it about themselves and their very important social justice struggles that a bunch of fans they resent should be forced to kneel down to.

I hope they butcher this shit so bad they make a hobbit named Georgo Fl'Oyd so high on pipe weed he ODs at the hands of some elves it starts a race war. Shrug. What could they do. The source material wasn't already in a perfect television script so they had to fill in the gaps and make some stuff up!

Tarrant said:

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LOL did you quick edit to a different emoji? (edit: then switched it back from the googly eyes to the thinking emoji. Every important decisions you're making here). Jesus Christ you're such an insufferable twat. You're like Mist, but with a smaller dick. Tell us all again about how you think I'm forum stalking you by responding and reacting to your idiotic replies on a message forum.

popsicledeath said:

It's very telling how bad the entertainment industries have gotten, because we have retards arguing as if the options are either a documentary format (wtf?) with, what, direct narration of the text, or I guess the other option is them just making random shit up and changing what little is very clearly outlined like character's skin color as the writers and producers focus on making a story directly engage with modern political and social causes and tackle representation of black and indigenous English actors of color.

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I am assuming it's the 'not read it' option then - that's fine, it's not a very interesting book. You may be surprised to know that it really doesn't clearly outline much about anything, let alone skin color. There's a few people that are mentioned as being 'fair of skin', but for the most part you get no description whatsoever - the sum total of information on Elbereth's appearance is that she is 'most beautiful'.

It seems like they intentionally wanted to tackle this source material because they felt it absolved them from being true and respectful to the IP

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On this we an agree - this is almost certainly true, regardless of whether your definition of respectful goes further than 'no blacks'.

velk said:

I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse here, although I suppose it's also possible you have never read the Silmarillion and have no idea what he's talking about.

Here's an example that might make it clearer



How would you go about faithfully adapting that to a TV show ? You could do something similar to what fellowship did, with Cate Blanchett narrating it over interesting background images, but it's possible that would get a bit old after the first 8 hours or so.

The Silmarillion is essentially a history textbook.

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there are quite a few narration and expositive scenes in Jackson's LOTR trilogy. there simply had to be because it covered many different timelines. what Jackson did was fill in the blanks with character dialogue while he set things up for later scenes. all of it meeting one event to the other. a lot of this was in the books, but not all of it.

a good example

velk said:

the sum total of information on Elbereth's appearance is that she is 'most beautiful'.

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And they'll probably fuck that up by casting some ugly bitch like they did for Fringorilla in the Witcher.

Me reading what sounds like boring books doesn't matter. If it's shit source material then they shouldn't be trying to use it to build a narrative story. And if they are, then all they have to do is understand the source material themselves and then try to represent it in a way that respects and is faithful to the source and IP. It's really not that hard, and I'm not sure why morons are hung up on defending shit decisions with the notion that the only actual way to adapt any work is a 1 to 1 creation, in this case the suggestions being a fucking narrated voice over or documentary style format, whatever the fuck that means.

Every day IP and source materials are adapted to screenplays and scripts without political or social agendas, often from less established sources. Justified was adapted from Elmore Leonard's IP. Do you think everything that happened in the show was a 1 to 1 occurrence in a novel? Do you think it wouldn't have been a crock of shit if they suddenly decided to make Raylan gay and explore a love triangle between Ava and Boyd to advocate for gay marriage?

The fixation on pretending butchering the IP and source material is justified (see what I did there) because of the format of the source material isn't already in narrative format is just ignorant and retarded.

Tarrant said:

The emoji showed a "?" on my phone so I changed it.

And if you go back, I said you will go eyeroll a post as soon as I eyeroll yours, not that you reply.

But maybe you were just dumb and unaware...or being purposefully obtuse. Either way.

Edit: A+ deflection though. Well done.

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You're such a whiny faggot.

You're right, I skimmed your posts because they're so often acting out some homoerotic fantasy that people are targeting you or some shit. It's pathetic and weird. I'm not one to kink shame, but I'm not interested in feeding into your sexual proclivities, so I'll go ahead and stop acknowledging you now.

Chukzombi said:

there are quite a few narration and expositive scenes in Jackson's LOTR trilogy. there simply had to be because it covered many different timelines. what Jackson did was fill in the blanks with character dialogue while he set things up for later scenes. all of it meeting one event to the other. a lot of this was in the books, but not all of it.

a good example

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Wait, what, everyone wasn't an exact copy from the trilogy to the movies? Why, golly, they should have filled in the gaps with black hobbits and gay(er) elves! Nobody would have noticed because they just wouldn't have any other option but to make things up if they weren't perfectly ready for shooting the films by the actors just reading directly from the books!

popsicledeath said:

Wait, what, everyone wasn't an exact copy from the trilogy to the movies? Why, golly, they should have filled in the gaps with black hobbits and gay(er) elves! Nobody would have noticed because they just wouldn't have any other option but to make things up if they weren't perfectly ready for shooting the films by the actors just reading directly from the books!

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there is no earthly reason why a prequel should have abnormal appearance characters of a race that do not appear anywhere in the future (looking at you too, House Of The Dragon). it suggests that the elves, dwarves and men collaborated and killed them off in order to preserve their homogeneous society from inferior beings.

popsicledeath said:

Ah, documentary format.... Still don't understand.

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I imagine this is a very common occurrence for you. I'm sorry.

popsicledeath said:

They could also just focusing on telling the story of the history and world without derpy dialog or exposition that is stilted?

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Either you leave it out and somehow still have a compelling narrative-format show (practically impossible), or, at best, you make it up and actually do a good job of it and almost none of it would be Tolkien. You're squarely in fan fiction territory if you do that, which you'd know if you'd have actually read the books you're attempting to argue about. And while it's possible to make good fan fiction, by definition, it can't be faithful in anything but in spirit and / or in some of the most general concepts and characters. In the case of what this show appears to be focusing on (the forging of the rings, Sauron's deception of Ar-Pharazon, etc), it would be like someone trying to adapt a historically-faithful 8 hour show about The Battle Of The Bulge by reading a 300 page book about World War 2 that covers that entire complex campaign in seven pages. Sure, you can fit in Hitler and Roosevelt and some of the Generals and Colonels and set it in the proper locations, but 90% of it would by necessity be completely the invention of the show writers. Of course if they forced in a bunch of diversity hires and made half the guys from Easy Company black and Chinese and Indian that would make it even worse, but even the best case scenario could only be faithful in the most superficial of senses.

Edit: A better example... It would be like adapting LoTR into three long movies, except without having the actual LoTR books to utilize as a source. Instead, you have only the summarized version of the story proper that appears in The Silmarillion to pull from, which takes up all of about six paragraphs. In that case you either have Frodo wandering from The Shire to Mordor without interacting with anyone or doing much of anything until the ring is destroyed OR you have to make up a fuck ton of characters for him to meet and shit for him to do.

popsicledeath said:

You seem to think bad writers or producers can be made good by simply calling what form they're using by a different term. Why wouldn't they just fuck up a documentary format too?

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The fuck? Who says they wouldn't? It's simply the only way one could truly adapt this material into a TV show without it being 10% "Tolkien characters and locations" and 90% fan fiction.

Faithful adaptation means same characters and storyline. There can be tweaks like combining characters/scenes for time or extending action scenes to better suit the medium.

You can't create entire new storylines or characters, especially when the motive is "black people".

That's fine, and you should then be in agreement that a faithful adaptation of The Silmarillion is virtually unfilmable.