RIP(or is it RIH?) Hugo Chavez

chaos

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Yeah, nationalizing the oil industry seems like the real issue here, and hardly seems "evil". Reading stuff about him makes it sound like he did a lot for the country. Whatever, it just seems indicative of our modern age. Here is this big bad guy, or so we are told, and 9 out of 10 people couldn't even tell you why beyond some vague bullshit. The media tells us he is the guy wearing the black cowboy hat, so he is. And you have Americans celebrating his death who couldn't tell you a damn thing about him.
 

Loser Araysar

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Think it has to due with him nationalizing(aka stealing) oil companies along with being a quasidictator.
Take back what was stolen from you and they call you a thief. Give it back to your people as they rightfully deserve and they call you a "quasidictator"

And that should tell you everything you need to know about the man. He didnt really give two shits about whether or not people in the eastern US where paying high rates for heating oil, he cared about his image and what would further his goals.
Send free oil to help people stay warm and they call you a narcissist.
 

Cutlery

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The media tells me that he was evil and I have no idea why.
You listen to the wrong media. The BBC basically gave him complete coverage all night last night (morning there), and treated him like a saint.

The only thing I felt ashamed of was some fucker from the Bush administration basically saying "Yeah, no one's missing that piece of shit"
 

ohkcrlho

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at least he was a not a "yes man" of the USA,EU.
not a democratic ruler,also not the devil that many say he is.
but hey, there are those "democratic" leaders like Bush,Blair,Putin (yes this one is not democratic at all )who did more harm to the World than Ch?vez and i wanna see how they going to be remembered
 

hodj

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He was certainly controversial. Bad?

I dunno. I mean some will see nationalizing the oil industry as Araysar has, taking back what was stolen from them in the first place, and that's a legitimate point of view.

Others will see the same event the way this article does

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/0...y-of-hugo.html

A former paratrooper, Mr. Ch?vez had a radical vision for ?21st Century Socialism,? which was never fully explained. His skillful rhetoric, which filled supporters with utopian dreams, was used to justify the methodical destruction of Venezuela?s democratic institutions and the free market.

Shortly after coming to office, he rewrote the constitution to his liking and aggressively set out to rig elections and stifle adversaries in the legislative branch and the courts. Unable to brook criticism, he turned his fire on the independent news media, eventually silencing most voices of opposition by bully tactics and economic intimidation.

His Bolivarian regime rewarded supporters and punished opponents, giving rise to enormous corruption and the creation of a new class of greedy oligarchs with political connections. Unfortunately for Venezuela and for all his political skills, the president was both an incompetent executive and a worse economist.

In an energy-rich country that once knew no blackouts, electrical shortages are frequent, the result of Mr. Ch?vez?s plundering of the country?s public oil company. In a country that once enjoyed a thriving free market, prices are controlled and food items often scarce.

In recent weeks, while Mr. Ch?vez was hospitalized, Venezuela was once again forced to devalue its currency, this time by one-third. This was the inevitable outcome of a series of disastrous economic decisions that included nationalizing the telephone company and other utilities, which scared off foreign investors and spurred capital flight.

For Venezuelans, the worst aspect of the Ch?vez years was the soaring crime rate. Venezuela has become one of the most violent countries in the world, with nearly 20,000 murders recorded in 2011 and a homicide rate that some experts say is four times greater than in the last year before Mr. Ch?vez took power.

On the international front, Mr. Ch?vez eagerly accepted Fidel Castro as his mentor, providing Cuba with cut-rate oil and making common cause with Iran and other rogue regimes. His departure leaves the anti-American front leaderless on a hemispheric level and could eventually threaten the subsidy that Cuba relies on to keep its economy barely functioning.

As a result of all this, Venezuela today is a polarized society divided between the intolerant supporters of Mr. Ch?vez?s Bolivarian Revolution and a democratic opposition that, against all odds, has waged a courageous fight for a democratic alternative.
 

chaos

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Even in that article they say things like he "rigged elections". Based on what? The fact that he won? And he somehow got jimmy Carter in his pocket? That article is basically an opinion piece. The only verifiable fact I see there is the rising crime rate in Venezuela.
 

ohkcrlho

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In an energy-rich country that once knew no blackouts, electrical shortages are frequent
oh....i know another country with the same problem...Angola

and yes,nationalizing the oil company was the best thing to do for Venezuela.
i know many oil companies get pissed with that kind of move but fuck them.
 

hodj

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That article is basically an opinion piece.
Agreed. That's exactly why I posted it. To show that there are two takes on the issue. I don't really know which one I come down on, because I do not and have not lived in Venezuela.

I will say that, as far as I can ascertain, Venezuela is not better off today than it was in 1999, but I can say the same thing for the United States as well, so I'm not sure what that really implies.

Jesus Christ I can't type this morning what the fuck. That sentence was mangled nonsense for a second sorry.
 

Creslin

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I think it bothers some people that democracy could result in a leader like Chavez. Because in the us vs them mindset, us has democracy and they are a bunch of dictators. It's the same reason people struggle so mightily with the fact that Russia elected Putin or that Iran elected Ahmadinajad(i know just butchered that), it hurts their heads. So we always get the stories of gangs of thugs stuffing balot boxes etc etc.

That said Chavez, while not the villian he is often made out to be, was not really a great leader and his poor handling of his economy will doom his legacy.
 

Eomer

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Yeah, nationalizing the oil industry seems like the real issue here, and hardly seems "evil". Reading stuff about him makes it sound like he did a lot for the country. Whatever, it just seems indicative of our modern age. Here is this big bad guy, or so we are told, and 9 out of 10 people couldn't even tell you why beyond some vague bullshit. The media tells us he is the guy wearing the black cowboy hat, so he is. And you have Americans celebrating his death who couldn't tell you a damn thing about him.
He did a shit load of idiotic things. Maybe the animosity between him and the developed world was primarily about nationalizing oil resources, but he did a piss-poor job of running his country in almost every respect. With their massive resource wealth, why is the average Venezuelan no better off than Colombians, Ecuadorians, Peruvians, Brazilians and so on? Going by HDI figures for those countries, anyways.

He suppressed the opposition in any way he could, fucked with the country's constitution so he could continue to run it, stocked government ministries and state owned corporations with cronies (hence why their oil exports have declined by half, the state oil company is a fucking disaster:http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...88J1IW20120920), let corruption run rampant, continuously interfered with the country's judiciary and more or less brought it under his control, did pretty much the same thing to the media, and did a wonderful job pissing off many of his neighbors (one example:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_An...lomatic_crisis).

Maybe he's not as bad as the media in the US portrayed him, but he certainly wasn't a good person or leader either. Venezuela should be far and away the wealthiest country in South America given it's resources. Instead it's pretty much middle of the pack. Meanwhile the countries that have embraced democracy and capitalism, Chile and Brazil and to a lesser extent Colombia and Peru, are rapidly developing.
 

Numbers_sl

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Using the nation's oil revenue as his own personal piggy bank isn't something I would describe as a good thing.
 

iannis

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Don't fuck up the contrarian white knight argument with an actual look at the man or the repercussions of his leadership.

HE WAS A HERO OF THE PEOPLE, I TELL YOU. HE POKED AMERICA IN THE EYE.

Would the other guy have been worse for Argenteria? That is not only possible, but likely.

Mummify his corpse and move on, imho.
 

Loser Araysar

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Even in that article they say things like he "rigged elections". Based on what? The fact that he won? And he somehow got jimmy Carter in his pocket? That article is basically an opinion piece. The only verifiable fact I see there is the rising crime rate in Venezuela.
Since we are talking about rigged elections, why arent we talking about how the US/CIA tried to rig 3 elections in the row against him?
 

Numbers_sl

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Don't fuck up the contrarian white knight argument with an actual look at the man or the repercussions of his leadership.

HE WAS A HERO OF THE PEOPLE, I TELL YOU. HE POKED AMERICA IN THE EYE.

Would the other guy have been worse for Argenteria? That is not only possible, but likely.

Mummify his corpse and move on, imho.
You're right. I'm sorry.
 

Dashel

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What sticks out most in my mind were his idiotic comments. I remember his UN address calling Bush a devil, quoting Chomsky and generally carrying on. Obama was a "clown" according to him. Some nonsense about the US spreading cancer to Latin America. Oh and something about capitalism being responsible for destroying life on Mars. Wasnt he also buddies with Ahmadinejad and Castro... and Sean Penn? I rest my case.

As for the "man of the people" image, the guy was worth a couple of billion dollars supposedly.
 

Loser Araysar

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He did a shit load of idiotic things. Maybe the animosity between him and the developed world was primarily about nationalizing oil resources, but he did a piss-poor job of running his country in almost every respect. With their massive resource wealth, why is the average Venezuelan no better off than Colombians, Ecuadorians, Peruvians, Brazilians and so on? Going by HDI figures for those countries, anyways.
He reduced poverty by double digit percentages, and considering where Venezuelans were in early to mid 1990s, he boosted them to a level of living they haven't seen in their lifetimes.



He suppressed the opposition in any way he could,
I would do it too when practically all your opposition is funded by the CIA and external intelligence agencies.

fucked with the country's constitution so he could continue to run it
Reforming the moribund constitution which allowed a highly concentrated oligarchy to entrench itself at the top was one of his campaign promises even before the first election

, stocked government ministries and state owned corporations with cronies (hence why their oil exports have declined by half, the state oil company is a fucking disaster:
I'd put friends in important positions to minimize betrayal as well. Should he have put total strangers when he is surrounded by enemies? Additionally, what proof do you have that this is the reason their petroleum exports "declined by half"?
 
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Don't fuck up the contrarian white knight argument with an actual look at the man or the repercussions of his leadership.

HE WAS A HERO OF THE PEOPLE, I TELL YOU. HE POKED AMERICA IN THE EYE.

Would the other guy have been worse for Argenteria? That is not only possible, but likely.

Mummify his corpse and move on, imho.
Yeah you're right, Venezuela would have been way better off with another right-wing American puppet to leave the poor in the lurch.