Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

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Trump's Staff
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You got him backwards, he is making the claim that it doesn't exists. Physical observation is enough.

Example, there were no rubber duckies in the Paleolithic period. My test is we have not found any rubber duckies, so until we find one rubber duck, my statement is true.
 

Furry

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lol wut. Does that mean hodj thinks god is true until the burdeon of proof to disprove him is met? I just don't even. Perhaps hes gone wacky insane since I last tried to talk to him.
 

hodj

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You got him backwards, he is making the claim that it doesn't exists. Physical observation is enough.

Example, there were no rubber duckies in the Paleolithic period. My test is we have not found any rubber duckies, so until we find one rubber duck, my statement is true.
You don't understand burden of proof and what you just said is lol so wrong it hurts my head reading it.

The burden lies on the claimant. If you claim something does not exist, you have the burden to demonstrate that is true. The second statement is a fallacy as well. Hochuli can help you in this situation.

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Does that mean hodj thinks god is true until the burdeon of proof to disprove him is met?
Burden of proof is on the claimant. Holy shit you two just went full retard, and clearly you don't understand the difference between knowledge claims, and belief claims.
 

iannis

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Sub Zero!

Fatality!

I dunno. I think you reach a point where conceptual tools meant to interpret reality can be mistaken for the reality itself. And when it comes to applications of negative mass maybe you reach that point. Maybe something which exists is being described inaccurately because it is not well understood.

But then again, they puzzled out exactly what a molecule was going to look like a good generation before the physical structure of them (not the electrical implications) were observed. So maybe we cut the crazy talk some slack. It might not actually be crazy!
 

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Trump's Staff
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So which statement is not a fallacy...

There were rubber duckies in the Paleolithic period.
There were no rubber duckies in the Paleolithic period.
 

hodj

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I think you reach a point where conceptual tools meant to interpret reality can be mistaken for the reality itself.
That's pretty much exactly what Furry's problem here is. He thinks people attempting to conceptualize concepts to test various hypotheses means that they believe those concepts are actually real, when they're only being used as modeling devices.

Its mistaking the clay figurine for the person it is modeling.
 

hodj

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So which statement is not a fallacy...

There were rubber duckies in the Paleolithic period.
There were no rubber duckies in the Paleolithic period.
Both are fallacies if the claim for either is being made in the affirmative without evidence for such.

And saying "We have no examples of X, therefore Y is true" is an argument from silence.

"There are no gods, I know this for a fact" requires the exact same burden of proof as saying "There are gods, I know this for a fact".
 

hodj

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Saying for certainty that there are no humans on Mars when we had no ability to look at Mars and see it would have been an error in reasoning, yes. Saying for certainty there were humans at that point in time would have been the exact same error in reasoning.

Now we have plenty of evidence for that fact.

This isn't according "hodj" this is according to "logic" and if you have a disagreement with that, you need to take it up with the entire field of reasoning.

I'm sorry you're having trouble grasping how burden of proof works, but that really isn't my problem.
 

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Trump's Staff
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Both are fallacies if the claim for either is being made in the affirmative without evidence for such.

And saying "We have no examples of X, therefore Y is true" is an argument from silence.

"There are no gods, I know this for a fact" requires the exact same burden of proof as saying "There are gods, I know this for a fact".
I actually said "There are no evidence of X,, hence X is false."

You can read right.

There is no evidence of rubber duckies in the paleolithic period, hence there were no rubber duckies in the paleolithic period. Please show me where my fallacy lies.
 

Furry

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hodj logic is more like.

There's no proof of X... But I agree with X, thus CITATION REQUIRED.
 

hodj

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I actually said "There are no evidence of X,, hence X is false."
And that is the argument from silence fallacy.

As I already pointed out with the Hochuli meme.

The proper way to phrase it, so that you avoid this fallacy is "There is no evidence of X, therefore I DISBELIEVE the positive claim of X until more evidence is brought to light".

It is the assertion of X's falsity that is why your conclusion here does not follow from your premise.
 

hodj

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Philosophic burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Holder of the burden[edit]

When two parties are in a discussion and one affirms a claim that the other disputes, the one who affirms has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim.[1] An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true.[2][3] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the proposition, but is not valid reasoning.[4]

While certain kinds of arguments, such as logical syllogisms, require mathematical or strictly logical proofs, the standard for evidence to meet the burden of proof is usually determined by context and community standards.[5][6]

Matt Dillahunty gives the example of a large jar full of gumballs to illustrate the burden of proof.[12][13] It is a fact of reality that the number of gumballs in the jar is either even or odd, but the degree of personal acceptance or rejection of claims about that characteristic is more nuanced depending upon the evidence available. We can choose to consider two claims about the situation, given as:

The number of gumballs is even.
The number of gumballs is odd.

These two claims can be considered independently. Before we have any information about the number of gumballs, we have no means of distinguishing either of the two claims. When we have no evidence favoring either proposition, we may suspend judgment. If there is a claim proposed and that claim is disputed, the burden of proof falls onto the proponent of the claim. From a cognitive sense, when no personal preference toward opposing claims exists, one may be either skeptical of both claims or ambivalent of both claims. [14][15]

 

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Trump's Staff
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Are you disputing that there were no rubber duckies? So your position in the rubber duckies controversy is what?

The argument needs two parties.
 

hodj

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Are you disputing that there were no rubber duckies? So your position in the rubber duckies controversy is what?

The argument needs two parties.
No, the argument doesn't, actually. Your argument is "There is no evidence for X, therefore X does not exist". That is the claim you are making. My acceptance or rejection of that claim is based on the evidence you are able to bring to bear to support it. Rejecting your argument is NOT accepting the counter argument. That is a second claim that must be judged and acceptance or rejection of that claim made based on the evidence to support it.

You're misunderstanding belief claims versus knowledge claims and burden of proof.

As the above post by me demonstrates with the gumballs, there are actually two claims involved in the gumball problem: The gumballs are even and the gumballs are odd. These are two separate claims that are judged based on their individual merits. The rejection of one is not the acceptance of the other.
 

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Trump's Staff
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So you don't have a stake on the argument itself. You are just pointing out the form of the argument is erroneous.
You are the Alex Trebec of the board. Ill make sure ill phrase my argument in the form of a question.
 

hodj

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That's how rational inquiry and logic works, yes, you do not have to take a position on anything to reject a positive claim for which insufficient evidence has been provided.

I'm trying to explain to you how to think properly, which you're clearly having intense trouble doing right now.

This isn't some rules I'm making up, this is how logic actually fucking works.
 

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Trump's Staff
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What is the I am glad that you are always there for us to make sure we phrase our arguments the proper way?
 

hodj

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The Atheist experience archives is such a great place to go to help yourself get how logic works in application. Dillahunty is so good at explaining this shit.

This video also addresses this issue of rejecting positive claims does not indicate an acceptance of the opposing claim, and how burden of proof is placed upon positive claimants.

Watch this shit because its literally the discussion we're having here, replacing God/Not God with Rubber Duckies/Not Rubber Duckies.