Science!! Fucking magnets, how do they work?

ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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I don't even know what Lunis Lunis is trying to do? Does he not realize there are distinct regions of the cerebral cortex involved with language, be it auditory processong or oral language construction? That these were selected for over time because it allowed better social interactions and survival?
 
Tuco

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Lunis said:
I think ZyyzYzzy didn't even complete a biology course in high school.

Natural selection, sexual selection, exaptations, etc. are distinct from one another. Open any advanced textbook in biology. And yes they are all apart of the 'natural' evolutionary process. No one argues every single trait of every species is the result of natural selection; not even Steven Pinker. You are simply very confused about what the evolutionary process actually is.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection
Sexual selection is a form of natural selection where one sex prefers a specific characteristic in an individual of the other sex.
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Look I even have a cool peacock gif
Sexual_Selection_with_Peafowl.gif


Actually, I found while researching that a lot of people differentiate sexual and natural selection, in that natural selection results from the struggle to survive, sexual selection emerges from the struggle to reproduce. I don't really care about this argument, so I'm tagging Sentagur Sentagur and ZyyzYzzy ZyyzYzzy back in.
 
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Lunis

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Yes, I understand. The Broca area seems to be where the Merge operation takes place. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
 
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Sentagur

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Tuco said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection

Look I even have a cool peacock gif
Sexual_Selection_with_Peafowl.gif


Actually, I found while researching that a lot of people differentiate sexual and natural selection, in that natural selection results from the struggle to survive, sexual selection emerges from the struggle to reproduce. I don't really care about this argument, so I'm tagging Sentagur Sentagur and ZyyzYzzy ZyyzYzzy back in.
Click to expand...
Of course sexual and natural selections are describing different concepts, they are responses to different pressures but they are all under one umbrella of Natural evolution as contributors and i dont think they can be separated/differentiated from one another cleanly in nature.

Imagine if the peacocks with more dots were more delicious then the ones with less dots, you think they would still be selected for to survive?
 
Lunis

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They are distinct from one another. Like everything in biology there are degrees of interaction, so yes sexual selection does have a slight connection to natural selection. Just like exaptations, exaptations cannot happen without the force of natural selection in the background. But you have to look at the correct level of analysis of each individually. This is basically a truism.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Lunis said:
Yes, I understand. The Broca area seems to be where the Merge operation takes place. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
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What are you saying then? Humans are magical and language isn't attributable to the anatomy and physiology of our CNS? Are you saying these regions haven't developed through various means of natural selection?

Every species communicates in some way shape or form as a means to increase survival and reproduction
 
ZyyzYzzy

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Lunis said:
They are distinct from one another. Like everything in biology there are degrees of interaction, so yes sexual selection does have a slight connection to natural selection. Just like exaptations, exaptations cannot happen without the force of natural selection in the background. But you have to look at the correct level of analysis of each individually. This is basically a truism.
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Again exaptations are a form of natural selection, just like sexual selection.
 
Lunis

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And going back to my main point, some things have more to do with natural physical laws than anything else. A cell divides in sphere's, not cubes. Not because of natural selection but because the physical laws just don't allow for anything else. The Merge function seems to be the result of a single mutation, not a gradual installation like most cognitive systems. Which again suggests some physical law working on the brain, like minimizing wire length or computational efficiency, caused it to form.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

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Lunis said:
And going back to my main point, some things have more to do with natural physical laws than anything else. A cell divides in sphere's, not cubes. Not because of natural selection but because the physical laws just don't allow for anything else. The Merge function seems to be the result of a single mutation, not a gradual installation like most cognitive systems. Which again suggests some physical law working on the brain, like minimizing wire length or computational efficiency, caused it to form.
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What the fuck are you arguing. Of course natural selection and evolution of anything is bound by the physical fucking laws of the universe?
 
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Lunis

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ZyyzYzzy said:
What are you saying then? Humans are magical and language isn't attributable to the anatomy and physiology of our CNS? Are you saying these regions haven't developed through various means of natural selection?

Every species communicates in some way shape or form as a means to increase survival and reproduction
Click to expand...

An infinitely generative process, like language, couldn't have gradually evolved simply because lit's infinite. A computational system doesn't go from small to large to infinite.
 
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Lunis

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We're talking about a rewiring of the human brain that took place in a very very short period of time. Within a range from 60,000 to 100,000 years ago. That is nowhere near enough time for natural selection to produce something as complex as the language faculty.
 
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Sentagur

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Lunis said:
We're talking about a rewiring of the human brain that took place in a very very short period of time. Within a range from 60,000 to 100,000 years ago. That is nowhere near enough time for natural selection to produce something as complex as the language faculty.
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http://www.linguisticsociety.org/sites/default/files/LanguageBegin.pdf seems to indicated that the changes could have been gradual over much more time than the 40-50k window you propose. Also it indicates that we currently dont have complete answers. which would make your claim an argument from ignorance fallacy at best.

Given how complex human brains are who is to say that language is not just a piece of software we learned to use that runs on the brain hardware used for other functions as well. Maybe we had the capability for 100s of thousands if not millions of years before we figure out how to utilize sounds coming out of our food holes for communication.


Edit:
Going to include the theory i recently pulled completely out of my ass.
A temporary and sudden food abundance allowed prehistoric woman some free time. Instead of having to chew the tough roots to make them edible for their husbands they suddenly had time sit around the cave and gossip.
Presto a language is born!
 
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Tuco

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Sentagur said:
Given how complex human brains are who is to say that language is not just a piece of software we learned to use that runs on the brain hardware used for other functions as well. Maybe we had the capability for 100s of thousands if not millions of years before we figure out how to utilize sounds coming out of our food holes for communication.
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Well, if you've ever seen me PvP you'll be forced to conclude that my skills have been granted by God. There's no way humans could have evolved the ability to PK at the infinite level I can in one generation.
 
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Lunis

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Nothing in science is ever 100%. All we have are fossils and artifacts from that period. We can't go back in time and examine the brain structure of all the species of hominids. The only 3 facts we know for certain are:

1) human skulls have not changed for about 200,000 years
2) there was no improvement in stone tools or symbolic art from about 200,000 to 60,000 years ago
3) there was a near instant increase in our making of tools/weapons/art within a 10,000 year period and we proceeded to wipe out all other hominid species still around

This fits with the idea that it was a single mutation that rewired the human brain, resulting from some biological law, that produced the Merge function. Infinitely recursive systems are extremely rare in nature, you need a very complex system like the human brain for it to form.
 
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Sentagur

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Lunis said:
Nothing in science is ever 100%. All we have are fossils and artifacts from that period. We can't go back in time and examine the brain structure of all the species of hominids. The only 3 facts we know for certain are:

1) human skulls have not changed for about 200,000 years
2) there was no improvement in stone tools or symbolic art from about 200,000 to 60,000 years ago
3) there was a near instant increase in our making of tools/weapons/art within a 10,000 year period and we proceeded to wipe out all other hominid species still around

This fits with the idea that it was a single mutation that rewired the human brain, resulting from some biological law, that produced the Merge function. Infinitely recursive systems are extremely rare in nature, you need a very complex system like the human brain for it to form.
Click to expand...

Objection, your Honor, the above calls for speculation!!!
 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Lunis said:
Nothing in science is ever 100%. All we have are fossils and artifacts from that period. We can't go back in time and examine the brain structure of all the species of hominids. The only 3 facts we know for certain are:

1) human skulls have not changed for about 200,000 years
2) there was no improvement in stone tools or symbolic art from about 200,000 to 60,000 years ago
3) there was a near instant increase in our making of tools/weapons/art within a 10,000 year period and we proceeded to wipe out all other hominid species still around

This fits with the idea that it was a single mutation that rewired the human brain, resulting from some biological law, that produced the Merge function. Infinitely recursive systems are extremely rare in nature, you need a very complex system like the human brain for it to form.
Click to expand...
If you had any basic understanding of genetics, cellular biology and neurobiology, you'd understand how your single mutation theory is stupid
 
Lunis

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There's nothing outlandish about what I described above, it's an accepted hypothesis in the scientific community. I'ts by no means proven, but I think it will turn out to be the correct interpretation in the end. Here's a few presentations/talks of it:


 
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ZyyzYzzy

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Lunis said:
There's nothing outlandish about what I described above, it's an accepted hypothesis in the scientific community. I'ts by no means proven, but I think it will turn out to be the correct interpretation in the end. Here's a few presentations/talks of it:


Click to expand...
Yep Noam Chomsky isn't a neurobiologist or even a fucking scientist
 
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