Sports writer kills himself, leaves behind website describing how and why

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Dumar_sl

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You're exhausting because you jump all over the place and misrepresent everything I say, which means I have to type the same things over and over. Are we going back to the original topic again now?

What do you want me to address: your reductionist viewpoint or suicide as a rational choice?

I forgot to link Plato's Cave - thx.
 
Lithose

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Dumar_sl said:
With the statements recently, the obvious reductionist influence is obvious. By stating reality is simply just composed of sensory inputs and that you actually would prefer your brain in a jar, you're falling very deep into reductionism.

The problem with this position is that it describes reality only by the constituent parts that make up the ability to experience it - it doesn't describe reality as is. It ignores any downward causation of the system: that is, the whole of the system may exert influence on the parts that make up that whole. Reductionism completely ignores this and most emergent properties. For example, if reality is just a collection of inputs, how am I am able to discern, differentiate, and realize that reality may not be a collection of inputs? That's an emergent property of consciousness; it's not a property actualized by the underlying parts that facilitate consciousness itself.
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You're able to discern it because of your consciousness. Which you actually say, that's an emergent property of consciousness. Consciousness can be derived from the inputs are electron clouds hitting together ("real" world), or impulses which verify thesamething. What happens after that sensation? That's consciousnesses, that is our perception. And as Hodj says, perception is extremely relativistic. There are pieces of matter that can cease to exist unless they are interacting with something else. It's only relative to the other discreet existence that they too, exist. Your mind is kind of like that, it is informed by the perception, or the impulses, you get from reality. If your brain was in a jar, and those impulses were precisely the same? You'd never know the difference.Never. (And again, people in the matrix didn't know, either--they were freed for another reason.)

Which goes back to the original point. Reality is a construct of perception. If perception is equal, then reality is equal. You could be sitting in a Matrix right now, and the "real" world could be some extra dimensional space that completely defies every law of physics you ever imagined. Guess what? You'd consider this matrix to be more "real" than that other place, especially if you never experienced it, but were only told "this is fake".

Our reality is a construct of our interpretation of signals. There is no difference except the ones our own unique perspectives bring, which is what consciousness is (And what maybe lets me enjoy the feel of something while you hate it). Which is why being in the Matrix? Amazing. And why Cypher's hesitation is most likely the fact that he doesn't want the guilt from killing all of his friends just to get back to a place that does not suck hard.
 
hodj

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We only ever left the original topic because you decided to rant about Marx and tried to create unjustifiable and unprovable statements like commodities suck out your humanity.

I'd hope I'm as exhausting to you as reading your long winded rote recitations of Marx are to everyone else on this forum.

What I find funniest about the cave metaphor is how you can't see how applicable it is to you. If anyone is "watching shadows thinking they are the real world" its the guy looking at culture outside of the context within which it evolved, the guy who asserts that we don't need to see anything BUT the shadows to understand reality.

It is you who says ignore ALL the scientific evidence, chemistry, physics, biology, quantifiable ethnographic and archaeological and other research, for your limited interpretation of what living a valid life is constructed of, not I.

In fact, if anything my point all along has been that you've latched onto one train of thought so strongly that you can't see that there are other strains of thought with as much validity as your own. Hence why you think my attacking your religious pedestal placing of Marx et al as attacks on Marx et all themselves. In so far as they are personally attacked, it is to heap ridicule upon your religious fervor, not their research, conclusions or opinions.
 
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Dumar_sl

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Lithose_sl said:
[...] Reality is a construct of perception [...]
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Note what I said: that consciousness can have an effect on the very apparatuses that facilitate it. Those effects cannot be explained by that facility, by those inputs you mention. That's the point.

I don't mean to be rude by making a very short post to your arguments and questions, but perception vs. reality is one of philosophy 101:The Problem of Perception.

I don't expect you to read all of that, but know that this debate has been going on for centuries, even over a millennium, and that debate, that dialog, is seen in the Matrix when Cypherexplicity statesthat he knows the steak isn't real. For what other purpose would that be his opening remark?

Plato's Cave is a really simple example that's been used since, well, Plato.
 
hodj

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Plato was a shill for the exact elites you call for violent revolution over bro.

We've already said that consciousness influences perception of reality. Consciousness does not, however, alter basic biological and biochemical functions, aka the very apparatuses that facilitate it. When you can alter fundamental laws of physics with your consciousness let us know.

For what other purpose would that be his opening remark?
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Its a movie written by a tranny, so I'm going to go with attention whoring and entertainment value.
 
fanaskin

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You're missing the esoteric aspect of plato's cave though and focusing like a marxist would only on the exoteric interactions in the story.
 
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Dumar_sl

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hodj_sl said:
Consciousness does not, however, alter basic biological and biochemical functions, aka the very apparatuses that facilitate it.
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When I think of that bitch that cheated on me last month with my best friend, and I feel angry and pissed off, what's happening?
 
hodj

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Dumar_sl said:
So when I think of that bitch that cheated on me last month with my best friend, and I feel angry and pissed off, what's happening?
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You're not fundamentally altering reality with your mind.

Just to be fair, the non glib answer is that your brain, which is a material organ built with a particular physical structure to engage in a particular function is causing a release of hormones into your physical being which is causing stress. At no point is anything magic or outside of nature occuring. At no point are you fundamentally altering physical reality, you are most definitely functioning directly within the constraints of your hormonal and biochemical feedback mechanisms.

There is no there, there, to your argument is what I'm saying. Nothing special or metaphysical is happening. Your brain is not "altering" your biology, your biology was already fully capable of feeling sadness or loneliness biochemically. Your attempt to pretend that your perception is causing a fundamental change in your body is a misconception due to a lack of understanding of biochemical pathways and how they function.
 
Lithose

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Dumar_sl said:
Note what I said: that consciousness can have an effect on the very apparatuses that facilitate it. Those effects cannot be explained by that facility, by those inputs you mention. That's the point.

I don't mean to be rude by making a very short post to your arguments and questions, but perception vs. reality is one of philosophy 101:The Problem of Perception

I don't expect you to read all of that, but know that this debate has been going on for centuries even over a millennium, and that debate, that dialog, is seen in the Matrix when Cypherexplicity statesthat he knows the steak isn't real. For what other purpose would that be his opening remark?

Plato's Cave is a really simple example that's been used since, well, Plato.
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Seems like Hodj beat me to it. But yeah, I think we've all read Plato here, Dum. And I'm pretty sure most, if not all, undergrads require Philosophy 101--We all had fun with the arguments of "whatis" and the search for "higher truth". But no higher truth is going warp how electron clouds interact.
 
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Dumar_sl

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hodj_sl said:
You're not fundamentally altering reality with your mind.
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Huh? My conscious thought of that bitch is having a downward causation biochemically, making me pissed off.

That's what the philosophy is saying and what reductionism ignores.
 
fanaskin

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There's no guaranteed universal reaction to every situation, the frontal lobe is capable of suppressing all the pre programmed animalistic lower brain functions. it only works like you describe if you literally have 0 mental discipline and are a purely emotional creature.

that's one thing the jesuits taught I found very helpful in life, the concept of delaying gratification to achieve goals.
 
khalid

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So rereading Christopher Hitchen's book God is not Great and he has a comment on Marx.

Hitchens_sl said:
Marx and Freud, it has to be conceded, were not doctors or exact scientists. It is better to think of them as great and fallible imaginative essayists.

Hitchens, Christopher (2007-05-01). God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (p. 18). Hachette Book Group. Kindle Edition.
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I think that is the correct way to view Marx and his writings.
 
Lithose

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Dumar_sl said:
When I think of that bitch that cheated on me last month with my best friend, and I feel angry and pissed off, what's happening?
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You received a set of signals indicating chemicals were exchanged between two people which you established in your consciousness under certain indicators (Most likely photons interacting with optic nerves, various molecules captured by membranes in your nose and mouth, and stimulation of auditory nerves). This new sensory information altered your perception of the state of your relationships--IE your consciousness.

If the sensory stimulation had been sent via Matrix or through the real world, the alteration in your perception would have been net result the same IF the sensory information was the same. Wouldn't it have? (Yes. Yes it would.) Which means your mind did not alter the reality, rather it formed reality based off of sensory input. (And FROM there, the reality can be quite moddable--some guys will hate her, some might forgive ect.)
 
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Numbers_sl

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Lithose_sl said:
You received a set of signals indicating chemicals were exchanged between two people which you established in your consciousness under certain indicators (Most likely photons interacting with optic nerves, various molecules captured by membranes in your nose and mouth, and stimulation of auditory nerves). This new sensory information altered your perception of the state of your relationships--IE your consciousness.

If the sensory stimulation had been sent via Matrix or through the real world, the alteration in your perception would have been net result the same. Wouldn't it have? (Yes.)
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Shit post.
 
Lithose

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Numbers_sl said:
Shit post.
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Thank you
smile.png
 
hodj

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Dumar_sl said:
Huh? My conscious thought of that bitch is having a downward causation biochemically, making me pissed off.

That's what the philosophy is saying and what reductionism ignores.
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1. Starting backwards, no one is ignoring that there is sympathetic interconnectedness between the brain and the body, that's just a massively stupid strawman.
2. Your argument again implies that something about your consciousness is separate from your body. Your body is exhibiting symptoms of stress because your autonomic nervous system is in constant contact with your brain and is specifically developed evolutionarily to respond to stimuli that your "consciousness" experiences. There is no magic downward pressure. There is only systems functioning as designed. You didn't do that, your body did that automatically in reaction to stimuli it experienced.
 
hodj

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khalid_sl said:
Marx and Freud, it has to be conceded, were not doctors or exact scientists. It is better to think of them as great and fallible imaginative essayists.
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Pretty much been my whole point to Dumar this entire time. In fact I even used Freud as a foil to explain that, at the time.

Notice his complete tone deafness to that fact in his reply to you, by the way.
 
fanaskin

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dumar is also implying that you can't control your own emotions.
 
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