Sports writer kills himself, leaves behind website describing how and why

hodj

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Seriously, you know damn well that he was referring to socio-political history of recorded human civilization. Not geology or prehistoric cave men. It was implied in the more succinct "history of the world".
No, Marx and his followers are expressing a world view that the only history that matters is the history of Western European written historical civilization. To say Marx is still embedded deeply into 17th and 18th and 19th century Eurocentrist world views would be an understatement.

But the fact is that all of history matters, and all of human history matters. Research into tribal cultures and into past population lifestyles and existences is of utmost importance to understanding how modern society came to be. You cannot cure diseases without understanding the illnesses, and you cannot understand illnesses if you convince yourself germ theory is irrelevant or does not matter.

Let me just point out that the very definition of "prehistory" is "To lack a formalized system of writing" and at one time you could tack on "And are not Christian" to that definition.

This completely removes all validity to the life patterns of Africans, who never developed formalized systems of writing, and instead had complex oral histories and traditions and still had cultures and societies that included hundreds of thousands of people and covered thousands of square miles of territory.

But the very concept is Eurocentric. It implies that if you aren't European, aren't white, you aren't really human. You aren't part of history. And that's how Eurocentric historians write history. Its all pretty well racist on its face.

We covered quite a bit of that in my African studies class last Spring.

I can cite you the books we had to read on the subject if you'd like.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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History is very Euro-centric. Including African Diaspora. It really starts from the point of contact and then atlantic slavery trade. Historians are scrambling together to expand the horizon and are now in the process of including Asia (i.e. India).

The basic idea of departure from euro-centric model is the inter-connectivity between Africans across the world.It is not defined by "nation or class." Rarely can a historian truly capture the complexity. Even those who claim to depart from euro-centric model simply traces the past through Atlantic slave trade,"emancipation," and post-U.N era (http://www.amazon.com/The-African-Di.../dp/0231144717). He fails to capture the slavery beyond Atlantic ocean. Notice how it is still very Euro-centric since the flow of his work covers major events in the Western world...not the East. It is a narrative which one must define before writing. It is a death trap to so many historians. It's all we got, so that's what we work with....

But yeah, history is reaching new heights now. Exciting times.
 

Dumar_sl

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Please shatter the broken record.

I never said history didn't matter. I said it didn't matterfor our purposes. For the gazillionth + 1 time, our analyses concerns the consequences and effects of capitalism, our modern socioeconomic mode of life. It does not concern or does not matter how capitalism and the particular mode of lifecame to be. It's not useful to us. We don't care. It could've came about a different way than reality dictated it be so, and our analyses would still concern the matters of fact of the particular socioeconomic structure. To be precise:

We are not analyzing the structure of the particular socioeconomic way of life, capitalism, but the effect of this particular way of life on society.

To note the history of how the particular way of life came to be is a good and interesting aside for sure, but it does not help us for our task at hand: the rationality ofsuicidein a society that is not conducive to a mentally healthy state of mind for the individuals living in it. Becauseit isasit is, regardless of how it got there.

I'm off to Barcelona tomorrow. I'm sure the topic will have shifted so many times by when I'm back in a week, but hopefully it arrives full circle back to chimpanzees play-fucking. I'll leave with the words of Picasso,

Picasso_sl said:
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
 

hodj

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Please shatter the broken record.

I never said history didn't matter. I said it didn't matterfor our purposes.
Distinction without a difference, weasel words at best. Save them, and us, and you, the time of posting them.

If it doesn't matter for your "purposes" it doesn't matter to you. And when these issues are clearly relevant to the topics at hand, and you want to wave them away and say they're useless and tangential when they are demonstrably not, what we should be looking to is WHY you are motivated to do that.

And the reason is simple: These facts are inconvenient to your world view. Thats why they aren't useful to your purpose. The only things useful to your purpose are self reinforcing.

Anything contrary to that must be purged.

but hopefully it arrives full circle back to chimpanzees play-fucking.
Its funny because this along with your retarded rant about how you're only concerned with capitalism right this second and not a minute before or after, is that with this you are pretty much implying that until Capitalism existed, we were no better than chimpanzees. Which means that capitalism is required for humans to be humans. You've basically contradicted yourself. We need capitalism to be human, but capitalism strips our humanity away by consumption of commodities.

Humans have existed for 200,000 years, and homo erectus before us also had culture and tribes and real lives that contributed to the development of modern culture. Most of our tool making techniques were learned from them. We wouldn't exist without their influence. You aren't concerned with anything that doesn't justify your world view. By looking exclusively at Capitalism, you can ignore your own flaws, and ignore all the flaws and mistakes of humans in the past. That fits perfectly, of course, with the Zinn style narrative that Western culture is UNIQUELY immoral, UNIQUELY flawed and UNIQUELY bad because we're racist oppressors who conquered the planet to suck up all the resources for ourselves.

Its a bigoted, and completely self loathing point of view. And its also the view of a radical ideologue who cannot think for himself and must regurgitate the thoughts of others to have any opinions whatsoever. Its very sad.
 

Famm

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Well Dumar from reading hodj's posts I've concluded that you are in fact a white supremacist and should be rickshawed.
 

hodj

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Eurocentric world historical views are pretty racist, and to try and separate Marx from the facts of 18th century European world views is pointless because you can't. He saw history as defined by Eurocentric contexts, as did pretty much everyone in Europe back then (and America).

The classical definition of civilization and history defined from a Eurocentric point of view is in fact racist. It states that any culture that did not develop writing and other signs of European social culture such as the fine arts, etc. weren't really civilizations. This was then utilized by Europeans to justify the entirety of the colonialist era. They were "bringing civilization to the barbarians" and whatnot.

The Chinese and Romans of course viewed the world this way as well, that if you didn't exist by their exact standards then you were barbarians, not a civilized society. In fact to the ancient Chinese, they were the only civilized culture and they were surrounded by barbarians.

The contemporary definition is much more lenient and doesn't imply that any culture lacking writing is barbaric and not worthy of note.

Check out these books for more detail on how African society (along with all Native American societies) were written off by Eurocentric definitions of what constitutes history and civilization

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/025...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

Dumar_sl

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Eurocentric world historical views are pretty racist, and to try and separate Marx from the facts of 18th century European world views is pointless because you can't. He saw history as defined by Eurocentric contexts, as did pretty much everyone in Europe back then (and America).

The classical definition of civilization and history defined from a Eurocentric point of view is in fact racist. It states that any culture that did not develop writing and other signs of European social culture such as the fine arts, etc. weren't really civilizations. This was then utilized by Europeans to justify the entirety of the colonialist era. They were "bringing civilization to the barbarians" and whatnot.

The Chinese and Romans of course viewed the world this way as well, that if you didn't exist by their exact standards then you were barbarians, not a civilized society. In fact to the ancient Chinese, they were the only civilized culture and they were surrounded by barbarians.

The contemporary definition is much more lenient and doesn't imply that any culture lacking writing is barbaric and not worthy of note.

Check out these books for more detail on how African society (along with all Native American societies) were written off by Eurocentric definitions of what constitutes history and civilization

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/025...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
What's the point of this post?
 

Famm

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Eurocentric world historical views are pretty racist, and to try and separate Marx from the facts of 18th century European world views is pointless because you can't. He saw history as defined by Eurocentric contexts,as did pretty much everyone in Europe back then (and America).
I'm aware of the Eurocentrism and cultural centrism in general that has been seen to plague history. I actually haven't read a lick of Marx myself I'll admit, unless it was snippets from Dumar probably. But you admit in bold there that it was the entirety of western thought at the time. I don't think you can wholesale discard the body of work of every thinker of that era because of the prevailing mindset towards other cultures.

Its possible that for the purposes of what Marx was writing about, any society without writing WAS irrelevant. Not irrelevant anthropologically or historically, but in terms of framing modern socioeconomic conditions for Marx? Possibly not an important group to consider.
 

iannis

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I'm aware of the Eurocentrism and cultural centrism in general that has been seen to plague history. I actually haven't read a lick of Marx myself I'll admit, unless it was snippets from Dumar probably. But you admit in bold there that it was the entirety of western thought at the time. I don't think you can wholesale discard the body of work of every thinker of that era because of the prevailing mindset towards other cultures.

Its possible that for the purposes of what Marx was writing about, any society without writing WAS irrelevant. Not irrelevant anthropologically or historically, but in terms of framing modern socioeconomic conditions for Marx? Possibly not an important group to consider.
I don't know how Hodj will answer, but that strikes me as an honest question. My honest answering question is at what point does an -ology degenerate into pure abstract bullshit?

I know it's bad form to answer a question with a question. Sorry about that, I am not good at computar. It seems when you start mincing it that much you're bordering on Philosophy more than sociology. That would seem to be the core of the basic argument with appeals to authority and a semi-religious dogma.

Which is not to say those philosophical arguments are without merit. I don't think that's the assertion at all. The assertion is that those are not the only arguments that do hold any merit, that they surely shouldn't even be the primary argument much less the solitary one, and that some people have occasional trouble seeing past their own eyelashes.
 

hodj

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I'm aware of the Eurocentrism and cultural centrism in general that has been seen to plague history. I actually haven't read a lick of Marx myself I'll admit, unless it was snippets from Dumar probably. But you admit in bold there that it was the entirety of western thought at the time. I don't think you can wholesale discard the body of work of every thinker of that era because of the prevailing mindset towards other cultures.

Its possible that for the purposes of what Marx was writing about, any society without writing WAS irrelevant. Not irrelevant anthropologically or historically, but in terms of framing modern socioeconomic conditions for Marx? Possibly not an important group to consider.
I'm not disregarding the entire body of Marx's work. I'm disregarding Dumar's obsesssion with Marx's body of work as the solution to all life's ills.

What was said is that Dumar is so tone deaf and blind he can't even see how his insistence that the only history that matters is modern written history is the exact sort of white supremacist racist bullshit that the Frankfurt Schoolers supposedly fight against.

Its possible that for the purposes of what Marx was writing about, any society without writing WAS irrelevant.
No, its really not. Marx was attempting to write about fundamental issues of the human condition. That shit is either applicable to all humans at all points in time, or its not. If its not, then its not the solution to all life's ills because it isn't addressing the fundamental issues of the human condition that it claims to be addressing. Fundamental has a specific meaning in this context. If something is fundamental to human existence, then it is seen in all human societies and cultures.

Dumar wants to chop out this tiny little fraction of human existence, this tiny thimble, this tiny little drop of water in the ocean of humanity's history, and then say that that is the only part of human history that is relevant. The reason he wants to do that is because that's the only part of human existence that might justify his worldview.

If your world view is that the history of all human history is class struggle, then it pretty well undermines that view to accept that actually, the history of human history is mostly little tribal groups finding ways to function in isolation without going extinct, and that only a tiny fraction of modern human history actually incorporates some fraction of the class struggle motif.

Let me put this into different terms.

Say we were talking about the Bible, and Christian/Jewish/Islamic fundamentalists. These people all have a similar viewpoint to the Marxists, that human history really only incorporates about the last 6000 years of human history. Once you begin undermining that position, that human history began 6000 years ago, the rest of the dogma starts to fall apart. First you show that the Earth is over 6000 years old, then you show that humans didn't just pop out of thin air complete in form and function to modern humans at the finger snap of a higher power. Now the entire premise that there is a God who created Man for a purpose starts falling apart. Once you begin to show that the Jews were never captives of Egypt, that in fact the entire Exodus and invasion of Canaan never occurred, and that the home city for Jesus never existed, well, the entire religion begins to lose purpose for existence.

Same thing goes for Marx in regards to how his FOLLOWERS (not Marx himself) have turned his works into religious dogma.

I'm pretty sure if Marx was alive today, having seen the history of the past 150 years, that he would have to admit that large portions of his treatise simply did not or were not accurate and did not come to pass, and that much of the way his followers intepreted his work actually ended up hurting the very people his treatise was supposed to help. Which they did. That's a fact that is undeniable by history. When rabid Marxists start ignoring facts counter to their worldview, you end up with tragedies like 25 million people starving to death in China while sitting out front of the grain barns praying to Mao and Marx to give them food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

The great Chinese famine was caused by social pressure, economic mismanagement, and radical changes in agriculture. Mao Zedong, chairman of the Chinese communist party, introduced drastic changes in farming which prohibited farm ownership. Failure to abide by the policies lead to persecution. The social pressure imposed on the citizens in terms of farming and business, which the government controlled, lead to state instability. Due to the laws passed during the period and Great Leap Forward during 1958-1962, according to government statistics, about 36 million people died in this period.[7] Until the early 1980s, the Chinese government's stance, reflected by the name "Three Years of Natural Disasters", was that the famine was largely a result of a series of natural disasters compounded by several planning errors. Researchers outside China argued that massive institutional and policy changes which accompanied the Great Leap Forward were the key factors in the famine, or at least worsened nature-induced disasters.[8][9] Since the 1980s there has been greater official Chinese recognition of the importance of policy mistakes in causing the disaster, claiming that the disaster was 30% due to natural causes and 70% by mismanagement.[citation needed]

During the Great Leap Forward, farming was organized into communes and the cultivation of private plots forbidden. Iron and steel production was identified as a key requirement for economic advancement. Millions of peasants were ordered away from agricultural work to join the iron and steel production workforce.
Yang Jisheng would summarize the effect of the focus on production targets in 2008:

In Xinyang, people starved at the doors of the grain warehouses. As they died, they shouted, "Communist Party, Chairman Mao, save us". If the granaries of Henan and Hebei had been opened, no one need have died. As people were dying in large numbers around them, officials did not think to save them. Their only concern was how to fulfill the delivery of grain.[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

In agriculture[edit source | editbeta]

In 1928, Trofim Lysenko, a previously unknown agronomist, claimed to have developed an agricultural technique, termed vernalization, which tripled or quadrupled crop yield by exposing wheat seed to high humidity and low temperature. While cold and moisture exposure are a normal part of the life cycle of fall-seeded winter cereals, the vernalization technique claimed to increase yields by increasing the intensity of exposure, in some cases planting soaked seeds directly into the snow cover of frozen fields. In reality, the technique was neither new (it had been known since 1854, and was extensively studied during the previous twenty years), nor did it produce the yields he promised, although some increase in production did occur.

When Lysenko began his fieldwork in the Soviet Union of the 1930s, the agriculture of the Soviet Union was in a massive crisis due to rapid changes in switching from an agrarian-based economy towards an industrial economy leading to mismanagement of collective farms. The resulting famine provoked the people and the government alike to search for any possible solution to the critical lack of food. Lysenko's vernalization practices yielded marginally greater food production on the farms, and he was quickly accepted as the hero of Soviet agriculture.

Many agronomists were educated before the revolution, and even many of those educated afterwards did not agree with the forced collectivization policies. Furthermore, among biologists of the day, the most popular topic was not agriculture at all, but the new genetics that was emerging out of studies of Drosophila melanogaster, commonly known as fruit flies. Drosophilid flies made experimental verification of genetics theories, such as Mendelian ratios and heritability, much easier.

Isaak Izrailevich Prezent, a main Lysenko theorist, presented Lysenko in Soviet mass-media as a genius who had developed a new, revolutionary agricultural technique. In this period, Soviet propaganda often focused on inspirational stories of peasants who, through their own canny ability and intelligence, came up with solutions to practical problems. Lysenko's widespread popularity provided him a platform to denounce theoretical genetics and to promote his own agricultural practices. He was, in turn, supported by the Soviet propaganda machine, which overstated his successes and omitted mention of his failures. This was accompanied by fake experimental data supporting Lysenkoism from scientists seeking favor and the destruction of counter-evidence to Lysenko's theories. Instead of performing controlled experiments, Lysenko claimed that vernalization increased wheat yields by 15%, solely based upon questionnaires taken of farmers.
The problem is not, and has never been Marx.

The problem is and always has been his rabid, braindead followers who read him and cite him rote chapter and verse as a replacement for actually thinking about these issues themselves.

What I want people to see is that putting any person or philosophy on a pedestal leads to ideological thinking that disrupts the capacity for reason. That's why when the Soviets and the Chinese and the North Koreans and the Cambodians are so convinced that the revolution of the proletariat must be the end point of human history, they become willing to do just about anything to "protect the revolution." Including mass starvation, driving the city dwelling populations into the killing fields to machete massacre them to death by the millions, locking 250,000 of your citizens up in concentration style camps where their every movement is dictated to by guards who beat them relentlessly and force them to work under horrible conditions (North Korea) and so forth and so on. Actually undermining and engaging in the types of activities Marx was decrying and hurting the very proletariat that Marx wanted to help the most. Its kinda like how the only real Christian was Jesus, the only real Marxist was Marx.

These are real tragedies of ideological Marxism that have occurred and continue to occur in this world today. Real true crimes against humanity justified by the types of absolute dogmatic thinking that shares more than a passing resemblence to Dumar's obsession with this one body of work as the solution to all the problems he perceives with human existence.

Marx is a great tool for the critical thinker. He's also a terrible opiate for the non critical thinker.
 

fanaskin

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The reason I think this occurs is the moment Marxists convince themselves that Marxism is "the perfect solution"(as Hodj points out stop thinking critically and willing to admit it's wrong about things vs following marxism as dogma) and thus if the solution is "perfect" almost any action can be justified in it's name (which you can see everywhere where Marxism was tried) this allows the worst aspects of positive(positive liberty here roughly thought as social change, vs negative liberty which is protection of individual freedom) liberty to occur.

The Paradox of Positive Liberty

Many liberals, including Berlin, have suggested that the positive concept of liberty carries with it a danger of authoritarianism. Consider the fate of a permanent and oppressed minority. Because the members of this minority participate in a democratic process characterized by majority rule, they might be said to be free on the grounds that they are members of a society exercising self-control over its own affairs. But they are oppressed, and so are surely unfree. Moreover, it is not necessary to see a society as democratic in order to see it as self-controlled; one might instead adopt an organic conception of society, according to which the collectivity is to be thought of as a living organism, and one might believe that this organism will only act rationally, will only be in control of itself, when its various parts are brought into line with some rational plan devised by its wise governors (who, to extend the metaphor, might be thought of as the organism's brain). In this case, even the majority might be oppressed in the name of liberty.

Such justifications of oppression in the name of liberty are no mere products of the liberal imagination, for there are notorious historical examples of their endorsement by authoritarian political leaders. Berlin, himself a liberal and writing during the cold war, was clearly moved by the way in which the apparently noble ideal of freedom as self-mastery or self-realization had been twisted and distorted by the totalitarian dictators of the twentieth century - most notably those of the Soviet Union - so as to claim that they, rather than the liberal West, were the true champions of freedom.The slippery slope towards this paradoxical conclusion begins, according to Berlin, with the idea of a divided self.To illustrate: the smoker in our story provides a clear example of a divided self, for she is both a self that desires to get to an appointment and a self that desires to get to the tobacconists, and these two desires are in conflict. We can now enrich this story in a plausible way by adding that one of these selves - the keeper of appointments - is superior to the other: the self that is a keeper of appointments is thus a 'higher' self, and the self that is a smoker is a 'lower' self. The higher self is the rational, reflecting self, the self that is capable of moral action and of taking responsibility for what she does. This is the true self, for rational reflection and moral responsibility are the features of humans that mark them off from other animals. The lower self, on the other hand, is the self of the passions, of unreflecting desires and irrational impulses. One is free, then, when one's higher, rational self is in control and one is not a slave to one's passions or to one's merely empirical self.The next step down the slippery slope consists in pointing out that some individuals are more rational than others, and can therefore know best what is in their and others' rational interests. This allows them to say that by forcing people less rational than themselves to do the rational thing and thus to realize their true selves, they are in fact liberating them from their merely empirical desires. Occasionally, Berlin says, the defender of positive freedom will take an additional step that consists in conceiving of the self as wider than the individual and as represented by an organic social whole - "a tribe, a race, a church, a state, the great society of the living and the dead and the yet unborn". The true interests of the individual are to be identified with the interests of this whole, and individuals can and should be coerced into fulfilling these interests, for they would not resist coercion if they were as rational and wise as their coercers."Once I take this view", Berlin says, "I am in a position to ignore the actual wishes of men or societies, to bully, oppress, torture in the name, and on behalf, of their 'real' selves, in the secure knowledge that whatever is the true goal of man ... must be identical with his freedom"(Berlin 1969, pp. 132-33).

Those in the negative camp try to cut off this line of reasoning at the first step, by denying that there is any necessary relation between one's freedom and one's desires. Since one is free to the extent that one is externally unprevented from doing things, they say, one can be free to do what one does not desire to do. If being free meant being unprevented from realizing one's desires, then one could, again paradoxically, reduce one's unfreedom by coming to desire fewer of the things one is unfree to do. One could become free simply by contenting oneself with one's situation. A perfectly contented slave is perfectly free to realize all of her desires. Nevertheless, we tend to think of slavery as the opposite of freedom. More generally, freedom is not to be confused with happiness, for in logical terms there is nothing to stop a free person from being unhappy or an unfree person from being happy. The happy person might feel free, but whether they are free is another matter (Day, 1970). Negative theorists of freedom therefore tend to say not that having freedom means being unprevented from doing as one desires, but that it means being unprevented from doing whatever one might desire to do.

Some theorists of positive freedom bite the bullet and say that the contented slave is indeed free - that in order to be free the individual must learn, not so much to dominate certain merely empirical desires, but to rid herself of them. She must, in other words, remove as many of her desires as possible. As Berlin puts it, if I have a wounded leg 'there are two methods of freeing myself from pain. One is to heal the wound. But if the cure is too difficult or uncertain, there is another method. I can get rid of the wound by cutting off my leg' (1969, pp. 135-36). This is the strategy of liberation adopted by ascetics, stoics and Buddhist sages. It involves a 'retreat into an inner citadel' - a soul or a purely noumenal self - in which the individual is immune to any outside forces. But this state, even if it can be achieved, is not one that liberals would want to call one of freedom, for it again risks masking important forms of oppression. It is, after all, often in coming to terms with excessive external limitations in society that individuals retreat into themselves, pretending to themselves that they do not really desire the worldly goods or pleasures they have been denied. Moreover, the removal of desires may also be an effect of outside forces, such as brainwashing, which we should hardly want to call a realization of freedom.

Because the concept of negative freedom concentrates on the external sphere in which individuals interact, it seems to provide a better guarantee against the dangers of paternalism and authoritarianism perceived by Berlin. To promote negative freedom is to promote the existence of a sphere of action within which the individual is sovereign, and within which she can pursue her own projects subject only to the constraint that she respect the spheres of others. Humboldt and Mill, both defenders of the negative concept of freedom, compared the development of an individual to that of a plant: individuals, like plants, must be allowed to grow, in the sense of developing their own faculties to the full and according to their own inner logic. Personal growth is something that cannot be imposed from without, but must come from within the individual.
 

ZyyzYzzy

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Communism is stupid and will never work and Marx was a fgt.

Dumar please kill yourself so we can change the title of the thread to "Communist MMO aficionado kills himself".
 

Tanoomba

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I don't think anybody said anything about Marxism being a solution to anything, much less a "perfect solution". The way I understood it, Marxism is being used in this conversation to provide context and explanation for the way things have become. That is to say, Marxism explains how human experiences have become commodities. The neural pathways in our brains that used to only be activated through certain (in some cases significant) life experiences are now activated through commercially manufactured and marketed means. If one is aware that everything that apparently gives one's life meaning is essentially commercially produced, one's life may cease to have any genuine meaning. One may logically consider that he/she has been robbed of the human experience, that most of the civilized world has for that matter, and choose to opt out rather than continue to live a life that one cannot help but feel is not a genuine one.

Please note that I'm not saying anyoneshouldfeel this way. I sure don't. I can accept that most of my experiences are manufactured ones and still enjoy my life anyway. But that doesn't mean I can't see someone whodoesfeel that way as being rational. In a way, this conversation is kind of about whether or not people can be trusted with the responsibility to decide whether their own lives are worth living or not. And of course it can be argued that people make harsh decisions during rough times in their lives or that some people suffer from treatable chemical imbalances that might otherwise lead tosuicide, but none of that changes that it's also possible some people who are perfectly in their right mind can make a rational decision to take their own lives. There is no "rule" that we all must work for our own survival no matter what. We like to think there is, but there isn't.
 

fanaskin

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I don't think anybody said anything about Marxism being a solution to anything, much less a "perfect solution".
The whole point of the Marxist argument in this thread is the divided self and false consciousness, that people are conditioned through external stimuli to believe in things that harm the self, and that they don't realize it unless something forces them to dwell on their place in society which justifies theirsuicide.

It dovetails into rationales for a violent revolution that would kill millions, to form a utopia to save people from themselves and their manufactured experiences.
 

Tanoomba

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The whole point of the Marxist argument in this thread is the divided self and false consciousness, that people are conditioned through external stimuli to believe in things that harm the self, and that they don't realize it unless something forces them to dwell on their place in society which justifies theirsuicide.

This is what justifies the violent revolution that would kill millions, to form a utopia to save people from themselves and their manufactured experiences.
It's kind of a big jump from "Marxism explains howsuicidecan be a rational decision" (the point of the discussion) to "Marxism justifies violent revolution that would kill millions". Not saying the latter wouldn't make an interesting discussion, but it sure doesn't apply to the topic at hand, and it doesn't contradict a single thing I said.
 

bixxby

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What if millions commitsuicideas a form of revolution? Who has time to read all thosesuicideblogs?