Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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Awanka

Molten Core Raider
327
422
queue me facepalming...

This is why I vanish for weeks/months at a time. I just can't keep doing this forever. Seriously you could just Google this and find out you are wrong in about 1 minute.

Look the only games that you will be able to find that actually meet your standard are games released by EA, Activision, Ubisoft and CDPR...

I'm done venting. Got games to play...
I believe the salient point is that with AAA resources, 250+ employees, probably closing in on a 100 millionish now in budget, and 3+ years of development, what they've produced so far looks like a single A project, like it could have been done by 50 people in a year. And it's not just my admittedly unprofessional viewpoint here. Experienced game developers are concerned that Star Citizen is still grappling with basic issues that should have been mastered a long time ago, and that they have so little to show. This implies massive amounts of waste.

Please don't make comparisons to Witcher 3, especially Witcher 3's excellently written and expansive storyline. It's offensive. What I'm seeing is all pretty bare-bones involving minimal art assets. You're going to compare this to Witcher 3's enormous vibrant crafted world? A bunch of empty space with some ships and stations that you can walk around in? Really? Star Citizen Chapter 1 will have a story equivalent to Witcher 3? Really? You want to make this claim?
 

Thlayli

Lord Nagafen Raider
78
21
Ehhhh, I didn't back this and I'm not on board with the whole cult of Chris Roberts, but how many games before have tried to do as many things as Star Citizen, all at once, in an open world environment with high res graphics?

I think they've done fine so far given massive technical challenges and a slightly less than AAA budget. And the game is starting to look fun, so...

It's also important to keep in mind that their art asset and development pipeline is further along too; it's not like they've shown us everything they've done.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,197
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I believe the salient point is that with AAA resources, 250+ employees, probably closing in on a 100 millionish now in budget, and 3+ years of development, what they've produced so far looks like a single A project, like it could have been done by 50 people in a year.
A) That's not really true and B) we haven't even seen the single player game yet.
 

Variise

N00b
497
17
I believe the salient point is that with AAA resources, 250+ employees, probably closing in on a 100 millionish now in budget, and 3+ years of development, what they've produced so far looks like a single A project, like it could have been done by 50 people in a year. And it's not just my admittedly unprofessional viewpoint here. Experienced game developers are concerned that Star Citizen is still grappling with basic issues that should have been mastered a long time ago, and that they have so little to show. This implies massive amounts of waste.

Please don't make comparisons to Witcher 3, especially Witcher 3's excellently written and expansive storyline. It's offensive. What I'm seeing is all pretty bare-bones involving minimal art assets. You're going to compare this to Witcher 3's enormous vibrant crafted world? A bunch of empty space with some ships and stations that you can walk around in? Really? Star Citizen Chapter 1 will have a story equivalent to Witcher 3? Really? You want to make this claim?
See this is the challenge. How do you compare? Where do you compare? Depending on your viewpoint either nothing is done because you don't have access to it or they are progressing on schedule with the reality is somewhere in between.

We won't get access to SQ42 Chapter 1 until mid to late next year. The simple fact is a lot of the assets simply haven't been completed yet. People are shocked but guess what? Mass Effect Andromeda with identical release date is apparently missing a majority of its art assets (it's mostly in gray box state so a lot of things are still missing textures, lighting etc which all takes multiple passes) but does it? Nope. Internal builds are always farther along than test builds for Friends and Family which is pre-Alpha or any other Alpha build. It's just a lot of features are not at a state where it's worth testing so developers use place holders and replace those in the late stages of development. If you were in the ME:A pre-Alpha test you would be making the same arguments except most people aren't allowed in such early stages precisely because people can't stand seeing the sausage made. CIG has shown that a large section of the gaming community has been so coddled with mass market PR that hits a few months prior to release that everyone assumes games are in a "like" state many months or even a year or more prior which in reality you would be shocked in what state those games are in.

Those experts you mentioned that are worried is a couple of people with very limited experience in games with very tiny scopes and feature sets in comparison. There isn't even a game to compare it to due to what consoles have done to gaming in general. Features are cut because consoles just can't handle them and the PC has to make do with the same shit except maybe upgraded graphics. Lipstick on a pig comes to mind.

As for Witcher 3 yeah I'll make that comparison. In terms of character depth and interaction Witcher 3 is the best of the old style games we currently have but SC is aiming higher. Since you aren't really interested in how SC will handle it I will keep quiet and let you experience it first hand. It should be quite a sight. As for length the Witcher 3's main story can be completed in about 25 hours. SQ42 Chapter 1 is apparently 7-10 hours of rapidly clicking through conversations and cut scenes without reading or thinking about anything according to the vertical slice tests they did early on. Actual gameplay should be about 15-20 hours and much longer if you take your time and walk off to speak to other people and do your own thing.

The closest comparison I found to how they plan to implement it is SWTOR The Fallen Empire if you make a Lv60 character. You can skip the whole thing and exit out to the SWTOR world to do your own thing out of base and can hit "Play" anytime to play through the chapters of the story. The logic behind this is SQ42 is your backstory and it has missions/NPCs etc locked until you play through a part of the story and unlock that by making certain choices. They will keep that up throughout the early Chapters but you can keep exiting out into the PU and play there. The biggest concern people have is will the PU get anywhere near the love that SQ42 will get. Honestly I don't know. I kind of doubt it but the writers and Tony insist they plan to make it as deep as you are willing to go down the rabbit hole instead of giving you to same boring missions over and over. A very rough version of this exists in SC 2.0 where one mission unlocks another but it's completely bare bones and has zero depth. Tony has suggested they will be building on top of this in the early and mid parts of next year so that's at least a number of months out. But yeah the mission system will be one of the core parts of the game.

As for the length again that's just Chapter 1. You get at least 3 Chapters to complete the entire SQ42 Campaign as part of the game you buy and the next two are roughly 10 hours each to complete. So at a bare minimum if you rapidly clicked through everything you should get about 15 hours of clicking content or 30-50 hours of actual gameplay. Having said this they did mention that you may get up to 5 chapters in the Campaign but some are smaller and closer to 5 hours to complete. All of that is meaningless until we see the quality of the worlds and interactions. We got a very tiny taste of that during their last major event prior to the livestream and still have a year to complete it. It looked rough but interesting. Pretty sure Witcher 3 looked rough a year prior to release.

I also find it funny you mention that Witcher is a vibrant world. Yes it is I would use those words to describe it. SC is not supposed to be vibrant. Would you describe Alien: Isolation as a vibrant environment? You are setting SC up to fail before you even install it if that is your expectation. Now if you mean colorful characters, complex stories and choices that leave you shaken to your core... that kind of vibrant I can't say. I know that I watched every single interview with the writers and commentary from the actors and that's the plan. Will they succeed? I don't know. Lets put our heads together this time next year and see if they succeeded or failed. With what I have seen so far I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

Funny how this game gets so much hate when other developers that have a franchise that sells in the billion dollar range have shit on-rails scripted stories with zero choices that's supposed to be the Gold Standard. Witcher series being the exception to that rule. I dunno why people hold those turds on a pedestal.

Anyway will see. Won't we.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I dont understand the hate myself. They either make a shitty game and I laugh at them and the people who were dumb enough to out a shitload of money. Or they make an OK or better game and i have fun.

Hate is mostly either jealoucy or just beight a retard white knight.
 

Variise

N00b
497
17
Ehhhh, I didn't back this and I'm not on board with the whole cult of Chris Roberts, but how many games before have tried to do as many things as Star Citizen, all at once, in an open world environment with high res graphics?

I think they've done fine so far given massive technical challenges and a slightly less than AAA budget. And the game is starting to look fun, so...

It's also important to keep in mind that their art asset and development pipeline is further along too; it's not like they've shown us everything they've done.
Yup. We now know they spent about 1.5 years working on the Shubin Mining Station which was the first space station. If that's all you knew it would be understandable that it would be considered a massive waste of time and money and totally mismanaging the project.

Except that was built in modules and now that those modules are done 1.5 years later they built the station you start in SC 2.0 in a few hours. That takes an insane amount of project management skill to pull off and not fuck it up. Well they didn't fuck it up. I know a lot of people aren't happy about running through corridors and think it's a waste of time but go through at least once. It's fucking creepy and they haven't even implemented the crawl space yet. The abandoned space station is insanely creepy.

So yeah I'm no longer worried about them making good space stations for the PU. IMO they proved they could do it. We just haven't seen those module assets completed yet for the planetary landing zones. Once the first set is complete sometime early next year they should be able to rapidly spit those out. There are supposed to be 3 major types but as far as I know none of those 3 planetary asset sets are done. High Tech is Terra which is possibly done but the info on it is kind of vague. Industrial is mostly done which is what we have access to right now and I think that's the first set of building blocks they will complete for SC early next year. No idea how far they are with the 3rd set. I forget it's name atm but I'm pretty sure they also worked on it a bit but I think that one is the furthest out from being complete.

Now ready to get blown away? What we see now as the Industrial asset set is getting revamped sometime next year. I don't know to what degree but I think it has to do with the modular sets being done and apparently some of what we see now aren't that so it will get replaced. Apparently those asset sets are even nicer. This is something Ben mentioned some weeks after the Social Module was released. Will see how that goes. Apparently Nyx was the first planetary landing zone where those asset sets were used to its fullest and we might get to see Nyx next sometime soon. So what we see in Nix should be what ArcCorp will ultimately look like in terms of quality/polish.

I think this is the only Preview we have of Nyx atm and this is from the end of August.https://vimeo.com/137655209
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
29,948
29,763
There is a huge difference between SCO and most other games.

You don't have "land" right now. You just have ships in a black expanse with white dots in the distance.
 

Variise

N00b
497
17
Hahaha. It's like talking to a born again Christian.
If you think anything I wrote is unreasonable you have precious little experience on the Internet in general.

I find that most of the most viscous people on this board are some of the biggest trolls and shit posters I have had the displeasure to meet. You don't come anywhere near them. Take that as the compliment it is. At least you can put together an argument even if it's based on nothing more than "feelings". It's still valid in a sense that you have an opinion and are willing to stand up for it.

However when presented with other evidence you either look into it, but that's hard, or you ignore it and push on. So it's funny you mention arguing with born again Christians because you nearly fit that. Doesn't matter what I say or link at this point it's irrelevant because it doesn't conform to what is expected. At least some here are willing to see things differently at SC 2.0 hit PTU warts and all. Others never will and others still will remain guarded and rightly so right up to release. The gaming community as a whole has been fucked in the ass without lube for so long I just can't blame people for being so guarded about such things. It's totally understandable. However some things are still facts no matter what and ignoring them for the sake of arguing doesn't move the conversation forward. It's why I tend to leave for long stretches and see how people respond to news when there is something worth talking about like now.

Anyway all of this is just shooting shit. I'm more interested in Chris actually sticking to the peace meal updates he promised during the live stream. That will either prove they are getting things done or won't. That will either reinforce people's views of how horrible it all is or show that they are making progress and getting things done.

The next 12 months should be interesting.

I'm out.
 

Awanka

Molten Core Raider
327
422
Never mind. I see I've been coming across as negative about Star Citizen lately, and I don't mean to. I'm certainly not hoping that the project will fail. I think the whole thing is very tenuous, but that's different.

We'll see how it plays out.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,367
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Nobody is trolling here.

Arguing about it won't do much good. SC doesn't have much to show right now, but they have a lot of legitimate excuses for why not. They are taking a very ambitious approach toward a lot of their game mechanics, which I think is a mistake but is still a legitimate excuse.
 

Awanka

Molten Core Raider
327
422
The walls of text. The horrible grammar and spelling. It reminded me a lot of Goliath. It was an honest question. A lot of people have changed their names here.
 

Sylas

<Gold Donor>
3,666
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Certainly hope the game they promised comes out i'd love to fucking play that. No doubt.

But the excuses they have aren't all that legitimate. Some of the challenges on the technical side are serious but they knew them going in. The scope of the game, while large, isn't unique. There are many games that incorporate as many or more into a single entity as they are trying to do.

They are building a smaller, heavily instanced version of Eve Online that sacrifices size and scale for combat and realism. Trading epic space battles between thousands of players in a single uninstanced universe for gritty, realistic dogfighting between a small number of players. The feature lists are basically identical, they just focus on different aspects. But really it comes down to Epic space battles vs small scale dogfighting because the rest of the feature list is just tedium. Both games offer excessive tedium. Eve is right click context menu excel tedium while SC is walking around repairing your ship stacking stuff into crates so you can stack crates and don't forget to fuel up your ship tedium. You will be bored to tears either way but SC will look prettier while doing it.

Variise didn't jizz all over the announcement because he knows this isn't all that much really. It's basically the same as pantheon releasing a playable pre-alpha of what they have now, both teams are about at the same point in the development cycle. SC will probably get their first because they have more talent and can leverage that more efficiently (assuming pantheon doesn't run out of money and release what they have unfinished) but they are at the same place. Yeah SC had to build a lot of their stuff while pantheon went middleware and asset store, but again compare the resources of the two.

The excuses Variise does offer boil down to "SC mismanaged their finances" which seems like a fair assessment. Otherwise the excuse boils down to "we overestimated our talent and abilities" or "we bit off more than we can chew" which is a lot worse. No one is saying they are a bunch of talentless hacks. They seem to be putting out a high quality product. But given their manpower, money and time they are well behind where anyone else would of been. It's not like they are reinventing the wheel here. Nothing they are doing is super innovative or hasn't been done before. They are just adding a fuck ton of realistic tedium to a space game and making the multiplayer quasi-mmo-light.
 

Faith

Useless lazy bastard.
1,178
857
Sylas beat me to it. The truth points to itself.

Some highlights though:
Chris and his intern-wife turned executive paying themselves millions of dollars.
Chris paying millions more to actors in a transparent attempt to relive his failed Hollywood aspirations.
$20,000 cappuccino machine.
And we know this how? As far as executive compensation for Mr and Mrs Roberts, I was not aware any proof has been produced as to how much they have been paying themselves? The coffee maker seems odd, is there any proof they actually have paid that much for it, or that it is even in the office? Enlighten me if you can, I am genuinly curious.

Now, I have been (and continue to be) rather sceptical to this project, but a LOT of the posts on SA and other places seem to just reek with hatred and nerd rage. There are tons of accusations flying around, but if studied they provide a lot of words and are very very light on evidence.

As a backer of both this and Elite, my thoughts are that SC has produced very little for the time and money they have been spending, while Elite has another development process that has actually delivered a playable game with more (to me) realistic expansionplans instead of trying to force in every aspect of the game at once. It should be noted that I know fuck all about development of games so my perspective might be all wrong. All I want SC to be is a place where me and some buddys can group up and fly around blasting things /shrugs.

Edit: I am also pissed off at the feature creep and broken delivery date. When I backed the KS it was nov 2014 for release, now $95+mil later and a year late they have seemingly dropped the co-op SQ42 idea and we get a pre-alpha/techdemo of a semi-mmo instead....wtf? Would have been better to make the promised game FIRST then plan expansions....
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
Nothing they are doing is super innovative or hasn't been done before.
I don't think you can claim that about the entire project. Maybe if you are talking about the current or near-future state, but the entire scope is unprecendented. Are there even any other multiplayer spaceship games besides Elite
biggrin.png
angerous (where you actually fly a ship simulator-style, not EVE)?