Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Sylas · Nov 23, 2015

not sure you know what innovative or unprecedented means. Are there any other [extremely limited subset] other than the 3 we just mentioned? lol
Battlefield 3+, GTA 5, Eve Online/dust, etc all "do" the innovative/unprecedented things that you think SC is doing.

Spore, for all it's faults is far more innovative and unprecedented game than SC. SC is taking 2 genre's, flight sim/dogfighting game and marrying it to a FPS game with online play in a quasi mmo like setup. Savage was actually innovative (RTS + FPS), this is not. Oh it's got a single player tutorial at first? whoopidy shit basically every MMO tutorial/leveling game is the single player. Shit wasn't Age of Conan's tutorial an offline experience til 20th level? Wait, did it have mounted combat too? So yeah funcom beat SC to everything. Only thing change is the setting, and guess what, space is the easier of the 2 to build. add backdrop, fly around in emptiness. no need for world or level builders.

It's adding a bunch of bells/whistles which is ultra tedius "realism" to make the simulation feel more gay. It's going to be pretty, it's going to be neat. It might even be fun if there's enough people who enjoy the tedium that I can just pay them to do the boring shit while I do the fun parts. But it's not going to be innovative and it's hardly unprecedented. The only "original" concept is logistics TEDIUM and Eve beat them to that.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 23, 2015

Scale is not innovation.

SC is doing some good things at a large scale once this game is finished. They aren't bringing any insane innovation to the table though.

Mr Creed · Nov 23, 2015

Sylas_sl said:
not sure you know what innovative or unprecedented means. ... But it's not going to be innovative and it's hardly unprecedented.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Scale is not innovation.

SC is doing some good things at a large scale o?n?c?e? IF this game is finished. They aren't bringing any insane innovation to the table though.

I would consider taking those aspects of different genres and implementing them all into one game innovative. I also think the definition of the word backs me up on that. But I guess we are arguing semantics then, and I don't care enough about SC to keep that up. Especially since it would be a discussion based on the full scope of SC, and I doubt that will come to fruition. I do agree that current and near-future SC is just iteration on existing games (hell, people argue that it even counts as a game yet).

Sylas · Nov 23, 2015

Look i don't want you to think i'm up in here hating on the game. I want it to come out. I want to play it.

But you guys are up in here Convo'ing this shit and you need to be called out. You need a dose of reality. The cult like fanaticism for this, or pantheon, or any game is uncalled for. Call a spade a spade bro.

When brad finally got some kind of funding and was able to hire at least a handful of non-volunteers to work on Pantheon Convo and company hinted for months about how great that was going to rock and etc. 8-9 months we all waited on this "huge update" to show their progress and finally the day came and those motherfuckers rolled out a new website. 9 months and maybe 10 dudes, you ain't expecting much, but certainly a realistic expectation is more than a few more paragraphs fleshing out the lore and an FAQ. People treating that "update" like world was built and half finished and beta 2 invites coming next week. Nah bro, the proper response to that update was "whoopidishit"

You guys doing the same shit here. going on 4 years, almost 100 mil and now they're up to what, almost 300 fucking dudes? You roll out a newbie zone, like 8 quests, 3 POIs and tack on the fps mod that we've already seen. The proper response is "whoopidishit"

What they've done so far doesn't justify the manhours money or time spent. That's reality. No need to defend it, they messed up or were unprepared or didn't plan well or whatever. no big deal. Begrudgingly optimistic is the best case scenario, and you up in here all hyped up like this alpha 2 going to pay your mortgage and power bills. Stop Convo'ing this shit man, that's all i'm saying.

Look at crowfall. full disclosure I backed that game's kickstarter. Clear concise communication on what they are doing, what they are building, what each version is adding and what each test is about. And then they deliver on what they said they were going to, when they said they were going to do it. continuous post KS funding via website just like SC but they aren't adding ridiculous un-achievable scale or feature creep every tier. It's almost like the dudes in charge know how to manage money and build video games, like they've done it a few times before.

That's basically what I expect. Own that shit. manage the projects and development professionally or hire someone else to if you can't. Manage expectations. but with their pay2whateveryouwannacallit business model they almost have to not be honest. it's all built on hopium to keep them virtual ship sales flowing so they kinda gotta mislead or the house of cards falls down. That's where all the "longcon" jokes come from. Is it really a conjob? no. it may end up as one if people stop buying virtual ship concepts though.

I'm not singling you guys or this game out. If some motherfucker played a pre-alpha CF hungerdome and started talking all this shit about how the game ready for beta why aren't they rolling it out yet i'd be all over them too with a dose of reality.

Sylas · Nov 23, 2015

in?no?vate
'in??vat/Submit
verb
make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.
"the company's failure to diversify and innovate competitively"
introduce (something new, especially a product).

I would consider taking those aspects of different genres and implementing them all into one game innovative.

I listed out half a dozen examples of games just off the top of my head that already took those exact aspects of different genre's and implemented them all into one game.

i'll let you cede your argument, but what you just said means that you don't know what semantics means either.

Draegan_sl · Nov 23, 2015

Sylas_sl said:
Look i don't want you to think i'm up in here hating on the game. I want it to come out. I want to play it.

But you guys are up in here Convo'ing this shit and you need to be called out. You need a dose of reality. The cult like fanaticism for this, or pantheon, or any game is uncalled for. Call a spade a spade bro.

When brad finally got some kind of funding and was able to hire at least a handful of non-volunteers to work on Pantheon Convo and company hinted for months about how great that was going to rock and etc. 8-9 months we all waited on this "huge update" to show their progress and finally the day came and those motherfuckers rolled out a new website. 9 months and maybe 10 dudes, you ain't expecting much, but certainly a realistic expectation is more than a few more paragraphs fleshing out the lore and an FAQ. People treating that "update" like world was built and half finished and beta 2 invites coming next week. Nah bro, the proper response to that update was "whoopidishit"

You guys doing the same shit here. going on 4 years, almost 100 mil and now they're up to what, almost 300 fucking dudes? You roll out a newbie zone, like 8 quests, 3 POIs and tack on the fps mod that we've already seen. The proper response is "whoopidishit"

What they've done so far doesn't justify the manhours money or time spent. That's reality. No need to defend it, they messed up or were unprepared or didn't plan well or whatever. no big deal. Begrudgingly optimistic is the best case scenario, and you up in here all hyped up like this alpha 2 going to pay your mortgage and power bills. Stop Convo'ing this shit man, that's all i'm saying.

Look at crowfall. full disclosure I backed that game's kickstarter. Clear concise communication on what they are doing, what they are building, what each version is adding and what each test is about. And then they deliver on what they said they were going to, when they said they were going to do it. continuous post KS funding via website just like SC but they aren't adding ridiculous un-achievable scale or feature creep every tier. It's almost like the dudes in charge know how to manage money and build video games, like they've done it a few times before.

That's basically what I expect. Own that shit. manage the projects and development professionally or hire someone else to if you can't. Manage expectations. but with their pay2whateveryouwannacallit business model they almost have to not be honest. it's all built on hopium to keep them virtual ship sales flowing so they kinda gotta mislead or the house of cards falls down. That's where all the "longcon" jokes come from. Is it really a conjob? no. it may end up as one if people stop buying virtual ship concepts though.

I'm not singling you guys or this game out. If some motherfucker played a pre-alpha CF hungerdome and started talking all this shit about how the game ready for beta why aren't they rolling it out yet i'd be all over them too with a dose of reality.

If you want to see how a skeptic acts reasonably to a game like this, look to Tuco's posts. You just come off as someone who thinks he knows more than he actually does when it comes to creating a game.

I just don't understand the level of scrutiny this game is getting. Is it because it raised so much money? Is it because it's not done by a studio? Do you not like the guy in charge? It's just strange. And to compare this game to Pantheon is just dumb. While there are a lot of Convo's for this game because it does have some weirdo cult thing going on. I don't think we really have any of those people here.

Even Variise has admitted several times where he is skeptical about certain things and things other places there have been mistakes. I think you can easily label him as an optimist.

In the end, we just haven't seen much and all we have is that it's been X years so therefore we should have Y!! But you're also ignoring the difficulties of ramping up production, building a large team, and scope of the project has changed. Maybe you are angry about scope creep?

People getting really batty about this game and those people are more entertaining to watch get frothy than anything that this game may provide in the near future.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 23, 2015

Draegan_sl said:
If you want to see how a skeptic acts reasonably to a game like this, look to Tuco's posts. You just come off as someone who thinks he knows more than he actually does when it comes to creating a game.

I just don't understand the level of scrutiny this game is getting. Is it because it raised so much money? Is it because it's not done by a studio? Do you not like the guy in charge? It's just strange. And to compare this game to Pantheon is just dumb. While there are a lot of Convo's for this game because it does have some weirdo cult thing going on. I don't think we really have any of those people here.

Even Variise has admitted several times where he is skeptical about certain things and things other places there have been mistakes. I think you can easily label him as an optimist.

In the end, we just haven't seen much and all we have is that it's been X years so therefore we should have Y!! But you're also ignoring the difficulties of ramping up production, building a large team, and scope of the project has changed. Maybe you are angry about scope creep?

People getting really batty about this game and those people are more entertaining to watch get frothy than anything that this game may provide in the near future.

Q: Is it because it raised so much money? A: Yes raising this much money on Kickstarter and then afterwards brings a lot of discussion to the table, not hate, discussion and trepidation.

Q: Is it because it's not done by a studio? A: Yes a 'real' studio would have a lot of the basic business stuff worked out and would most likely hemorrhage less money doing extra things that aren't worth it. It is a concern.

Q: Do you not like the guy in charge? A: I think some people do not because he feels he can do no wrong or at least that's how he comes across to everyone I know that is worried about the game (backers and non).

We do have people caught up in the cult here, Variise is for sure one. He can say he is skeptical all day long but he is not really demonstrating that all just stating it as a bullet point behind all the rest of his posts that show he isn't skeptical at all.

We aren't ignoring the fact that it takes time to ramp up all these things. We get that, and we feel that Chris does not. He is making mistakes (according to what we can see) that we have seen many a new designer make. He has changed the scope and maybe for the better and maybe not but it's concerning. Nobody is "angry" about the scope creep but it's probably the main issue to discuss.

Plenty of us, like Tuco, are very rational in talking about this game. We see flaws both in the team and just the concept of the game itself. We see them bilking people and are not happy with it. They might have every intention of delivering but they don't have a track record yet and can't be trusted. If they deliver well then hallelujah both for the team, the players, and the crowdfunding meta. This winning is a win for everyone. This failing is bad for more than just the team and backers, it will put crowdfunding and game development into a spotlight that will make future developers scared of doing it which will only strengthen people like EA and hurt gamers.

Tuco · Nov 23, 2015

I generally agree with sylas but also think they are doing some innovative things. Their ship damage model, for example.

The 2.0 alpha is in press ve because it is a substantial proof that they are moving forward. Is it a justification of the time and money spent? No. But it is substantial.

Draegan_sl · Nov 23, 2015

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Q: Is it because it raised so much money? A: Yes raising this much money on Kickstarter and then afterwards brings a lot of discussion to the table, not hate, discussion and trepidation.

Q: Is it because it's not done by a studio? A: Yes a 'real' studio would have a lot of the basic business stuff worked out and would most likely hemorrhage less money doing extra things that aren't worth it. It is a concern.

Q: Do you not like the guy in charge? A: I think some people do not because he feels he can do no wrong or at least that's how he comes across to everyone I know that is worried about the game (backers and non).

We do have people caught up in the cult here, Variise is for sure one. He can say he is skeptical all day long but he is not really demonstrating that all just stating it as a bullet point behind all the rest of his posts that show he isn't skeptical at all.

We aren't ignoring the fact that it takes time to ramp up all these things. We get that, and we feel that Chris does not. He is making mistakes (according to what we can see) that we have seen many a new designer make. He has changed the scope and maybe for the better and maybe not but it's concerning. Nobody is "angry" about the scope creep but it's probably the main issue to discuss.

Plenty of us, like Tuco, are very rational in talking about this game. We see flaws both in the team and just the concept of the game itself. We see them bilking people and are not happy with it. They might have every intention of delivering but they don't have a track record yet and can't be trusted. If they deliver well then hallelujah both for the team, the players, and the crowdfunding meta. This winning is a win for everyone. This failing is bad for more than just the team and backers, it will put crowdfunding and game development into a spotlight that will make future developers scared of doing it which will only strengthen people like EA and hurt gamers.

1) The only questions and concerns I would have about the way they raised money is if they are being open and transparent about their progress and how they are spending their money. Personally I think they've been very very open in those regards. Their updates are crazy detailed. I also don't expect them to open their books and show line items either to the public. Other people may have other expectations but I think those expectations are faulty. If you're giving them money, you should not expect to be able to get the same data their executives get.

To have any trepidation just based on how they are fund raising is silly in my opinion. Who cares how they got their money (assuming it's not criminal)?

2) Why are you defining what is and what isn't a studio? This whole premise is odd. They're making a game, it has professional developers working for them. It's also being run by someone who has made games before. Looks like a real studio to me. How efficient are they? I have no idea and I have no evidence right now either way. I don't really care either right now. If it ends up failing and not releasing a game like 38 Studios I'll pile on with the rest of the internet and get a chuckle.

3) I don't care about the personalities that make these games. They are all ego maniacs. For some reason gamers make celebrities out of game devs. It's strange. I've seen kids ask devs for autographs. He has a track record of releasing games. Shrug, good enough to me right now. I'll wait until they release a shitty product or don't release at all to mock him.

Variise is not part of that cult at all. If you think that, you really need to read their reddit or forums. Those fucking people are nuts. Variise would probably get banned if he wrote what he wrote on this page on their reddit. I'm sorry you can't parse his writing and take out the positives and negatives of what he's writing. Thats your problem not mine.

Nobody is angry? Heh, I've seen plenty of vitriol on the internet against this game. It's quite amazing.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 23, 2015

How they raised their money is interesting on a lot of different levels, like I said it's a discussion and trepidation not because if they fail they wasted our money but because if they fail it will bring crowdfunding to the spotlight and that can hurt the game industry, a lot. I don't care how THEY raised their money but they just happened to be the biggest crowdfunded game so far and the method is important.

I am not defining what is and isn't a studio. I am defining at what point you become 'real' because you need a footprint. You need printers. You need facilities. You need contracts for cleaning staff to take care of the toilets. You need to order printer paper in bulk. You need an HR team. You need medical benefits. You need everything that goes into a business that isn't directly related to the product you are trying to make. They raised money specifically to pay developers and build a game without a good handle on being a 'real' (which basically just means established) studio. They have to take some of that money and use it on very necessary things that might not be in that initial budget. It's a concern because you have things like Curt Schilling and his non-established studio buying fancy laptops for all the people and stuff like that. It's a valid concern that they might not know how to do all of that.

I could care less about the personality other than their decisions mold the process. Some people care though.

Variise might not be as bad as the reddit guys but doesn't mean he isn't a firm believer in the cult. We can parse it but look at most of the negatives he puts in. They are velvet covered knives and padded hammers. They are negatives designed to really look like positives. Think about preachers and "humble bragging".

Nobody is angry, here. Right here, on this forum. Here we are discussing things and doing it quite civil compared to even half of the threads with unfinished games. There is some minor hyperbole here and there but that is as nasty as it gets.

Soygen · Nov 23, 2015

So as someone with only the free AMD ship I got with my video card, if I reinstall this today, what am I able to do? The last time I played, I could only walk around in my hangar and look at my ship.

Itzena_sl · Nov 23, 2015

Draegan_sl said:
If you want to see how a skeptic acts reasonably to a game like this, look to Tuco's posts. You just come off as someone who thinks he knows more than he actually does when it comes to creating a game.

I just don't understand the level of scrutiny this game is getting. Is it because it raised so much money? Is it because it's not done by a studio? Do you not like the guy in charge? It's just strange. And to compare this game to Pantheon is just dumb. While there are a lot of Convo's for this game because it does have some weirdo cult thing going on. I don't think we really have any of those people here.

Even Variise has admitted several times where he is skeptical about certain things and things other places there have been mistakes. I think you can easily label him as an optimist.

In the end, we just haven't seen much and all we have is that it's been X years so therefore we should have Y!! But you're also ignoring the difficulties of ramping up production, building a large team, and scope of the project has changed. Maybe you are angry about scope creep?

People getting really batty about this game and those people are more entertaining to watch get frothy than anything that this game may provide in the near future.

So...you disagreed with the kicking Vanguard got for being pretty much in the same situation as Star Citizen?

Draegan_sl · Nov 23, 2015

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
How they raised their money is interesting on a lot of different levels, like I said it's a discussion and trepidation not because if they fail they wasted our money but because if they fail it will bring crowdfunding to the spotlight and that can hurt the game industry, a lot. I don't care how THEY raised their money but they just happened to be the biggest crowdfunded game so far and the method is important.

I am not defining what is and isn't a studio. I am defining at what point you become 'real' because you need a footprint. You need printers. You need facilities. You need contracts for cleaning staff to take care of the toilets. You need to order printer paper in bulk. You need an HR team. You need medical benefits. You need everything that goes into a business that isn't directly related to the product you are trying to make. They raised money specifically to pay developers and build a game without a good handle on being a 'real' (which basically just means established) studio. They have to take some of that money and use it on very necessary things that might not be in that initial budget. It's a concern because you have things like Curt Schilling and his non-established studio buying fancy laptops for all the people and stuff like that. It's a valid concern that they might not know how to do all of that.

I could care less about the personality other than their decisions mold the process. Some people care though.

Variise might not be as bad as the reddit guys but doesn't mean he isn't a firm believer in the cult. We can parse it but look at most of the negatives he puts in. They are velvet covered knives and padded hammers. They are negatives designed to really look like positives. Think about preachers and "humble bragging".

Nobody is angry, here. Right here, on this forum. Here we are discussing things and doing it quite civil compared to even half of the threads with unfinished games. There is some minor hyperbole here and there but that is as nasty as it gets.

How the raised their money is interesting, but only from a marketing point of view I think. In my opinion anyway. This will also have no effect on crowdfunding at all because gamers are retarded and will always chase the next thing with cash. This forum and it's history should teach you that. It might effect the huge whales, but they're rare. The average donation to this game is like under $100. Crowdfunding will continue just like always because there have been amazing successes too.

And are you saying the offices they use don't get cleaned or have office supplies? Such a strange statement.

Draegan_sl · Nov 23, 2015

Itzena_sl said:
So...you disagreed with the kicking Vanguard got for being pretty much in the same situation as Star Citizen?

I never bashed Vanguard when it was in development (I didn't really care at that point), sure did when it was released though.

Tuco · Nov 23, 2015

Draegan_sl said:
How the raised their money is interesting, but only from a marketing point of view I think. In my opinion anyway. This will also have no effect on crowdfunding at all because gamers are retarded and will always chase the next thing with cash. This forum and it's history should teach you that. It might effect the huge whales, but they're rare. The average donation to this game is like under $100. Crowdfunding will continue just like always because there have been amazing successes too.

And are you saying the offices they use don't get cleaned or have office supplies? Such a strange statement.

It's interesting from a financing point of view. And from a developer motivation point of view. And from a gamer's pov too.

It will have an affect on crowdfunding even if it's more minor than people think. People are saying that if it fails completely it'll kill crowdfunding games but that's an exaggeration. If it meets expectations you'll see a lot more crowdfunding. But it's most likely going to come out and be somewhat disappointing for most hopium addicts and will likely be an example for people to not crowdfund.

Draegan_sl · Nov 23, 2015

This game is so far removed from it's kickstarter that I think it'll have almost no negative effect on crowdfunding. It'll effect the big whales of the game, but there arn't many of them compared to larger gamer population out there.

Crowdfunding is such a case by case basis, I can't see how it gets effected. Just look at huge success stories like Occulus and Divinity.

a_skeleton_03 · Nov 23, 2015

Draegan_sl said:
And are you saying the offices they use don't get cleaned or have office supplies? Such a strange statement.

I am saying they needed to schedule all that and pay for that themselves out of the money they raised. Things they probably didn't think about for part of their budget when crowdfunding as a new company. All the costs of just having a building are quite extensive and are not usually discussed about in the budget by gamers and people who crowdfunded this.

Blackwulf · Nov 23, 2015

Soygen_sl said:
So as someone with only the free AMD ship I got with my video card, if I reinstall this today, what am I able to do? The last time I played, I could only walk around in my hangar and look at my ship.

Wait until 2.0 is off the PTU and released for general alpha testing. You'll have a lot more to do than walk around your hanger

Mist · Nov 23, 2015

Right now you can race, PvE against 18 waves of ships, and dogfight (8v8, 16 FFA) in the live alpha build, but the AMD ship is a racer isn't much for dogfighting, you'd have to upgrade it to a Mustang Delta for that.

It is a fucking sweet racer, though, and you can earn REC easily in races to rent other ships.

Draegan_sl · Nov 23, 2015

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
I am saying they needed to schedule all that and pay for that themselves out of the money they raised. Things they probably didn't think about for part of their budget when crowdfunding as a new company. All the costs of just having a building are quite extensive and are not usually discussed about in the budget by gamers and people who crowdfunded this.

I think it's weird that you (or whoever) assumes "they probably didn't think about (that) for the budget". Do you have a cause to think when putting together their work spaces or budgeting as things grew that they never considered normal business expenses?

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