Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
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I think it's weird that you (or whoever) assumes "they probably didn't think about (that) for the budget". Do you have a cause to think when putting together their work spaces or budgeting as things grew that they never considered normal business expenses?
I am telling you what some people think. We don't know if they thought of that.

Q: Is it because it's not done by a studio? A: Yes a 'real' studio would have a lot of the basic business stuff worked out and would most likely hemorrhage less money doing extra things that aren't worth it. It is a concern.

That was the original question you had and the answer. Part of the flaw is that gamers don't understand what the money is spent on. You raise $1M well then every dime of that is going to coding. Not the case. So you have a lot of discussion and concern from those that don't understand all the business expenses involved and think that CIG didn't plan for them and then you have the same from people that do know how much it costs to run a business and don't think they have enough money or that their burn rate must be astronomical. It's a valid point for discussion.

EDIT: We know for a fact that they didn't budget for everything because the scope creep changed the footprint of their company from something small to an international conglomeration now. Just the legal fees alone to set all that up ...
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Anyone who thinks they didn't budget for normal business operational costs is an idiot. It's a waste of time to bring it up.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Of course they didn't budget for it day 1. The fact that these offices have been open for a year or so shows that they planned and budgeted as they grew.
 

a_skeleton_03

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Of course they didn't budget for it day 1. The fact that these offices have been open for a year or so shows that they planned and budgeted as they grew.
No it shows only that they grew and might have spent way more money than they could afford to take away from actual development. They might not have needed to grow and they could have slowed down the creep and had a lot more to burn.

The expansion of the team at great expense was one of the biggest downfalls for 38 Studios.

Just because you grow does not mean you have money left to actually do what you grew to do.

Like I said it's a discussion and one worth having. I don't think this one thing alone makes them wrong or that they will fail but it's a discussion.
 

Blackwulf

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It seems like some people are operating under the assumption that Chris Roberts hasn't done shit since he coded Wing Commander 1 by himself in the late 80s. He's produced some pretty profitable films. He has lots of industry friends that run big operations. He went into the kickstarter with some highly successful people, includingOrtwyn Freyermuthas his partner. I really don't think budgeting for business expenses as things ramped up was beyond their capabilities.

Some of the people in here that are naysayers sound like the sad little subgroup of Goons that label themselves "Derek's Smarties" - I mean the level of assumption about CIG's ineptitude is laughable. Ironically, the denial that persists about how anything they're doing is remotely groundbreaking verges on cult behavior in itself.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Sounds like a normal business to me, any time there is a growing business you have pluses and minuses with expansion. It's just odd that you or anyone is scrutinizing it so much. No one can even remotely judge if they did it well or not because A) They are currently still operating which means they are doing something right. B) Have no released a product yet to judge quality of work and time spent. C) Have not completely failed and closed up shop thus proving they are shit with their money.

Speculating either way with any great effort is just a waste of time.
 

Faith

Useless lazy bastard.
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I just don't understand the level of scrutiny this game is getting. Is it because it raised so much money? Is it because it's not done by a studio? Do you not like the guy in charge? It's just strange. And to compare this game to Pantheon is just dumb. While there are a lot of Convo's for this game because it does have some weirdo cult thing going on. I don't think we really have any of those people here.
I think it might be because people are hungry for a good space sim and our meager selection is between this and Elite. Elite, in my opinion, does its stuff well, but it adds stuff slowly and step by step. SC promised the moon, with everything from stealth bombers to EVA spacewalk repairs, and people (like me) are getting annoyed at the sloooooow pace they are keeping. This leads to frustration and arguments it seems..... and then we ofc have the one who must not be named who has created a huge drama since summer and is quite fun to watch in action (as entertainment, god knows you cant take much he says seriously... like him going to sue everyone and everything). Its good popcorn material while we wait thou!

Edit: Oh and the feature creep + promised delivery (originaly) in 2014. That stings, but I understand why it must be so if they are going to implement even half the BS they added as funding goals.
 

Faith

Useless lazy bastard.
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857
It seems like some people are operating under the assumption that Chris Roberts hasn't done shit since he coded Wing Commander 1 by himself in the late 80s. He's produced some pretty profitable films. He has lots of industry friends that run big operations. He went into the kickstarter with some highly successful people, includingOrtwyn Freyermuthas his partner. I really don't think budgeting for business expenses as things ramped up was beyond their capabilities.

Some of the people in here that are naysayers sound like the sad little subgroup of Goons that label themselves "Derek's Smarties" - I mean the level of assumption about CIG's ineptitude is laughable. Ironically, the denial that persists about how anything they're doing is remotely groundbreaking verges on cult behavior in itself.
Lets not forget that CR has never succesfully managed a project so far as I can tell. Wing Commande was what, 400% over budget when it finaly released and only made a profit due to the DLCs/addon packs? While I do not doubt he has a vision, I do not trust his management skills (his film company went under, no?). Ortwyn is a skilled lawyer , no doubt, but he is not a manager over at SC so how his know-how about the law will help planning budgets is sort of a mystery to me? They are both talanted in their field, just neithers field has to do with a successful handling of a multi-million dollar company, quite the opposit.

I hope they have hired some person with great management skills tho, its just that I have been unable to track such an individual down in their staff.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
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It seems like some people are operating under the assumption that Chris Roberts hasn't done shit since he coded Wing Commander 1 by himself in the late 80s. He's produced some pretty profitable films.
Chris Roberts got run out of Hollywood on a rail after he fucked over Kevin Costner by being inept with other people's money.
 

Blackwulf

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Lets not forget that CR has never succesfully managed a project so far as I can tell.Wing Commande was what, 400% over budget when it finaly released and only made a profit due to the DLCs/addon packs? While I do not doubt he has a vision, I do not trust his management skills (his film company went under, no?). Ortwyn is a skilled lawyer , no doubt, but he is not a manager over at SC so how his know-how about the law will help planning budgets is sort of a mystery to me? They are both talanted in their field, just neithers field has to do with a successful handling of a multi-million dollar company, quite the opposit.

I hope they have hired some person with great management skills tho, its just that I have been unable to track such an individual down in their staff.
LOL what? Wing Commander and Ultima built Origin. Maybe you are thinking of Privateer or something?

Chris Roberts got run out of Hollywood on a rail after he fucked over Kevin Costner by being inept with other people's money.
Source? Everything I've read says that all of his movies were very profitable long term.
 

Blackwulf

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That's your source on him "being run out of Hollywood"? Did you read it? He's not even mentioned by name in that article, nor does it say anything about him losing the suit - Kostner settled. Not that it really applies to my point - that he was a producer for a lot of money-making movies like:

Black Water Transit (executive producer)
Outlander (producer)
Who's Your Caddy? (executive producer)
Lucky Number Slevin (producer)
Ask the Dust (executive producer)
Lord of War (producer)
The Big White (producer)
The Jacket (executive producer)
The Punisher (executive producer)
 

Awanka

Molten Core Raider
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That's your source on him "being run out of Hollywood"? Did you read it? He's not even mentioned by name in that article, nor does it say anything about him losing the suit - Kostner settled. Not that it really applies to my point - that he was a producer for a lot of money-making movies like:

Black Water Transit (executive producer)
Outlander (producer)
Who's Your Caddy? (executive producer)
Lucky Number Slevin (producer)
Ask the Dust (executive producer)
Lord of War (producer)
The Big White (producer)
The Jacket (executive producer)
The Punisher (executive producer)
Uh, what? Almost all those movies bombed you retard. Do you even read your own sources?

And you're forgetting one little gem: Wing Commander the movie. He did that. So yeah...

Brb. Going to post a source that proves my opponent's argument. Lol.
 

Variise

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Certainly hope the game they promised comes out i'd love to fucking play that. No doubt.

But the excuses they have aren't all that legitimate. Some of the challenges on the technical side are serious but they knew them going in. The scope of the game, while large, isn't unique. There are many games that incorporate as many or more into a single entity as they are trying to do.

They are building a smaller, heavily instanced version of Eve Online that sacrifices size and scale for combat and realism. Trading epic space battles between thousands of players in a single uninstanced universe for gritty, realistic dogfighting between a small number of players. The feature lists are basically identical, they just focus on different aspects. But really it comes down to Epic space battles vs small scale dogfighting because the rest of the feature list is just tedium. Both games offer excessive tedium. Eve is right click context menu excel tedium while SC is walking around repairing your ship stacking stuff into crates so you can stack crates and don't forget to fuel up your ship tedium. You will be bored to tears either way but SC will look prettier while doing it.

Variise didn't jizz all over the announcement because he knows this isn't all that much really. It's basically the same as pantheon releasing a playable pre-alpha of what they have now, both teams are about at the same point in the development cycle. SC will probably get their first because they have more talent and can leverage that more efficiently (assuming pantheon doesn't run out of money and release what they have unfinished) but they are at the same place. Yeah SC had to build a lot of their stuff while pantheon went middleware and asset store, but again compare the resources of the two.

The excuses Variise does offer boil down to "SC mismanaged their finances" which seems like a fair assessment. Otherwise the excuse boils down to "we overestimated our talent and abilities" or "we bit off more than we can chew" which is a lot worse. No one is saying they are a bunch of talentless hacks. They seem to be putting out a high quality product. But given their manpower, money and time they are well behind where anyone else would of been. It's not like they are reinventing the wheel here. Nothing they are doing is super innovative or hasn't been done before. They are just adding a fuck ton of realistic tedium to a space game and making the multiplayer quasi-mmo-light.
I want to correct something here on the "tedium".

So their plan is to let you do basic transactions without having to leave your ship. Things like repair, fuel, sell your cargo or buy the resources available at the port. If I understand it correctly you will be able to do this via your MobiGlas. The arm gadget that just got implemented in SC 2.0 It's bare bones right now but you can see the early UI for it. So at most you may have to get out of your chair and engage it or they might create an animation to let you uses it right from the chair which IMO they should let you do. Basic missions available at that port may also be made available in this way but I'm not sure.

Here are things they said you won't be able to do from your ship and you will have to get out of your seat for:

Smuggling illegal cargo through port security.
Speaking to shady contacts for illegal missions.
Speaking to a bartender to get "rumors" which can lead to Points of Interest (can be anything from a wreck, broken down merchant seeking help, pirate/alien attack on a friendly ship/NPC, abandoned ship/station to explore etc. with any of these possibly leading to a randomized mission arc just like any other mission. If you don't know what a mission arc is see below.
Assassination missions or pirate missions requiring you to bypass port security with your false ID and scanner proof cargo containers etc.

As for the tedium of walking around well there is no safety anywhere from NPCs. So even in "Green" zones where there is no PvP allowed it does not apply to NPCs. A gang might jump you in an alley as you head to your contact or wait for you until you have something on the way back. You might run into pick pockets or even assassins or bounty hunters if you pissed off the wrong NPC in your travels.

The idea is to not ever allow any area outside of your own personal hangar to be 100% safe. Why? Tension. Love the idea or hate it that is the current plan. I personally love the idea that anything can happen.

Plus missions might be generated from just about anything.

Ok so they haven't given us a deep dive yet on how missions will work but they did talk about it at length during previous major events even as far back as a year ago. So in the above I gave some examples of how some missions might be generated. The idea is you can complete that in the first stage and call it a day and move on to the next one. Having said that it's possible that if you pay attention you might unlock a second stage to a mission. You are not required to do it and in fact you may not be able to do it alone. At any time any stage might be so difficult that you will need friends to complete it. An example goes something like this:

You go to a bar and talk to the bartender and he tells you a rumor about some wet nosed pilot trying to make an illegal run through UEE space and dumping his cargo at the first sign of a UEE patrol. You get the POI location and go to it. You find a floating crate and get it into your cargo hold. Inside you find illegal loot you can choose to smuggle into a port if you have a scanner proof crate to move the items into it and potentially make a killing on it. There is a data chip stashed inside the crate. If you open it you find that it's locked. You can hack it and if you do you find out who the loot came from and it turns out to be some scary pirate port. At this point you can hand over the illegal goods to the UEE or sell it. You can choose to go to the pirate port and track down the NPC that gave that NPC the illegal mission. You find them and you can choose to become a drug mule since it's a mission contact. You might uncover a way to locate a pirate base where they make the drug. At this point you may need friends to raid the pirate base.

So that's one variation. Each stage of that is supposed to be modular and can attach to other mission modules creating a unique mission arc each time. You can quit at any stage and not purpose the mission further. Some can be returned to anytime and others might be limited in availability.

Based on what we heard so far this is way way out there in terms of timeline to complete. They want this up and running by end of 2016 but we should get chunks of it patched in here and there over the next 12 months. So it's not like the above is going to be reality in 3 months. It's more like one aspect of it will be a reality in a month or two and then maybe another feature of it gets patched in a few months later and on and on it goes until the whole thing is up and running in the next 12-13 months.
 

Itzena_sl

shitlord
4,609
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That's your source on him "being run out of Hollywood"? Did you read it? He's not even mentioned by name in that article, nor does it say anything about him losing the suit - Kostner settled. Not that it really applies to my point - that he was a producer for a lot of money-making movies like:

Black Water Transit (executive producer)
Outlander (producer)
Who's Your Caddy? (executive producer)
Lucky Number Slevin (producer)
Ask the Dust (executive producer)
Lord of War (producer)
The Big White (producer)
The Jacket (executive producer)
The Punisher (executive producer)
Aside from the whole "By what definition are any of those other than 'Lord of War' and 'Lucky Number Slevin' successes", how many has he producedafterlosing that lawsuit, hmm?
 

Variise

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And we know this how? As far as executive compensation for Mr and Mrs Roberts, I was not aware any proof has been produced as to how much they have been paying themselves? The coffee maker seems odd, is there any proof they actually have paid that much for it, or that it is even in the office? Enlighten me if you can, I am genuinly curious.

Now, I have been (and continue to be) rather sceptical to this project, but a LOT of the posts on SA and other places seem to just reek with hatred and nerd rage. There are tons of accusations flying around, but if studied they provide a lot of words and are very very light on evidence.

As a backer of both this and Elite, my thoughts are that SC has produced very little for the time and money they have been spending, while Elite has another development process that has actually delivered a playable game with more (to me) realistic expansionplans instead of trying to force in every aspect of the game at once. It should be noted that I know fuck all about development of games so my perspective might be all wrong. All I want SC to be is a place where me and some buddys can group up and fly around blasting things /shrugs.

Edit: I am also pissed off at the feature creep and broken delivery date. When I backed the KS it was nov 2014 for release, now $95+mil later and a year late they have seemingly dropped the co-op SQ42 idea and we get a pre-alpha/techdemo of a semi-mmo instead....wtf? Would have been better to make the promised game FIRST then plan expansions....
As far as the coffee maker goes it's probably true. Those things are not unique and apparently over on Reddit some people who work in a high end corporate environment mentioned that some of them do have those. Apparently the idea is to both boost morale and keep people in the office working and not make 20min coffee runs. I dunno if it's actually true or not those things really are expensive. Like 15-30k expensive. Meh... Have people seen some of the dev studios from the inside before? Doesn't seem uncommon. In fact their new place they just moved into has a huge ass kitchen so they can cook meals for the whole staff on site. That shit is insanely expensive if they are doing what I think they are doing but the place they just moved to has like no restaurants. I dunno. I seen Valve's studio and how they feed people and it's pretty freaking awesome and by no means cheap. Seems like petty shit to complain about IMO but to each their own.

The complaint about paying actors is hilarious. What did they expect? Almost every single Chris Roberts game had Hollywood talent. The gaming community gave him millions and the SC community has spent the past 3 years circle jerking over who they want to play major roles. Yeah like this wasn't going to happen. Worth a good laugh.

I also agree with you on the original KS promise except for one thing. I honestly didn't think they would make the game that quick. Since I do know something about game development, not much but more than most, I realized from the start that it seemed unrealistic. Still I was hoping they would make it until AC 1.0 came out and at that point I realized we were still many years away and the whole scope changed.

On the flip side people can ask for their money back and a small number has so it's not like it didn't hurt them but overall the PR damage is larger than the immediate monetary damage.
 

Blackwulf

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Uh, what? Almost all those movies bombed you retard. Do you even read your own sources?

And you're forgetting one little gem: Wing Commander the movie. He did that. So yeah...

Brb. Going to post a source that proves my opponent's argument. Lol.
Everyone of those movies made money. Some of them were in the 20's of millions in the black. A big box office isn't how a lot of Hollywood productions make money day to day, bud. Now hurry over to SA and ask the other smarties what you need to say back to me. Hurry!
 

Variise

N00b
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Look i don't want you to think i'm up in here hating on the game. I want it to come out. I want to play it.

But you guys are up in here Convo'ing this shit and you need to be called out. You need a dose of reality. The cult like fanaticism for this, or pantheon, or any game is uncalled for. Call a spade a spade bro.

When brad finally got some kind of funding and was able to hire at least a handful of non-volunteers to work on Pantheon Convo and company hinted for months about how great that was going to rock and etc. 8-9 months we all waited on this "huge update" to show their progress and finally the day came and those motherfuckers rolled out a new website. 9 months and maybe 10 dudes, you ain't expecting much, but certainly a realistic expectation is more than a few more paragraphs fleshing out the lore and an FAQ. People treating that "update" like world was built and half finished and beta 2 invites coming next week. Nah bro, the proper response to that update was "whoopidishit"

You guys doing the same shit here. going on 4 years, almost 100 mil and now they're up to what, almost 300 fucking dudes? You roll out a newbie zone, like 8 quests, 3 POIs and tack on the fps mod that we've already seen. The proper response is "whoopidishit"

What they've done so far doesn't justify the manhours money or time spent. That's reality. No need to defend it, they messed up or were unprepared or didn't plan well or whatever. no big deal. Begrudgingly optimistic is the best case scenario, and you up in here all hyped up like this alpha 2 going to pay your mortgage and power bills. Stop Convo'ing this shit man, that's all i'm saying.

Look at crowfall. full disclosure I backed that game's kickstarter. Clear concise communication on what they are doing, what they are building, what each version is adding and what each test is about. And then they deliver on what they said they were going to, when they said they were going to do it. continuous post KS funding via website just like SC but they aren't adding ridiculous un-achievable scale or feature creep every tier. It's almost like the dudes in charge know how to manage money and build video games, like they've done it a few times before.

That's basically what I expect. Own that shit. manage the projects and development professionally or hire someone else to if you can't. Manage expectations. but with their pay2whateveryouwannacallit business model they almost have to not be honest. it's all built on hopium to keep them virtual ship sales flowing so they kinda gotta mislead or the house of cards falls down. That's where all the "longcon" jokes come from. Is it really a conjob? no. it may end up as one if people stop buying virtual ship concepts though.

I'm not singling you guys or this game out. If some motherfucker played a pre-alpha CF hungerdome and started talking all this shit about how the game ready for beta why aren't they rolling it out yet i'd be all over them too with a dose of reality.
I covered this ground a couple of times.

They started full production 3 years ago not 4. 4 years ago was a proof of concept tech demo made by Chris, he did a lot of the programming, combined with Sean Tracy (at the time working for CryTek) and couple of other guys at CryTek working on it on their personal time along with his wife doing the marketing side, David (writer) and Ben. A total of maybe 7 people plus with only 7 of them actually a part of CIG when development started. They spent the first year hiring up to the mid 30s in staff, then just over 100 then around 200 and nearly 300 now.

What a lot of people don't understand about game, or any project, is that just because 1 person can complete a project in 1 year it doesn't mean that 12 people can complete the same project in 1 month. That has not been true in the history of Project Management. However that concept remains lodged deep in people's minds.

They talked endlessly about this and other issues in the 10 for the Producers episodes.

So you need to get that idea out of your head.

The best explanation I have heard in terms of Project Management goes something like this; People try to compare building a game to building a house. A game is a creative process while building a house is not. How creative a game gets depends on the project. Making yet another Lego Whatever game is not terribly creative and the tools, assets and how to manuals exist to create the majority of it without much creativity required to complete that project. Therefore the time required to complete it is very predictable. The other end of the scale is SC that requires a massive amount of creativity and therefore iteration on everything from art to programming. A vast majority of the tools have to be created from scratch. Integrating everything requires core parts of the original Engine to be re-written (Use button is a good example). Therefore slipping deadlines is common in the industry for this stuff. A house on the other end comes with a blueprint, tools, manpower and know-how readily available to complete the project rapidly.

In other words you are trying to compare SC to a Lego game. Trying to compare it to AC, Battlefront, COD is pretty much the same thing. Art assets are new iterations and the engine changes on occasion but the feature sets are fundamentally unchanged and therefore predictable.

You want to understand wtf is going on? Watch the 10 for the Producers episodes. There aren't that many of them. This shit comes up a lot.
 

Variise

N00b
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Anyone who thinks they budgeted for normal business operations at this scale is an idiot.
Chris said himself that they had no plans to do half of what they are doing now including running a 300+ employee company. He was hoping to suck on some of that corporate cock which I admit surprised me when I heard him admit it. Originally the game was supposed to have a very limited scope. A couple of the early promised features easily cost them a year+ development which is incalculable in cost since it's not like they are only working on one aspect of the game. Everything had to be re-written after the money didn't stop at 27 million. Interestingly if you actually look through the first 27 million in funding and look at what is promised you can see that there was never a chance in hell they could have done the game up to that stage even if they stopped taking money immediately and would have ran out requiring corporate funding.

So if anything I'm in the camp that thinks he massively underestimated the time required to complete the project. It's my personal biggest beef. The only reason I'm not sweating is because IMO they have the funding to complete the project. People forget they never started with 300 employees. While I think their operating budget is in the tens of millions a year right now it was probably only a few million in the first year and something in between in the second.

But hey when they do file their taxes we might find out what their financial situation is assuming that stuff can be requested through a FOI. I'm personally curious.