Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
If they didn't announce several times about allowing you to get a refund I would be on his side.

He didn't take advantage of those multiple opportunities though so this is on him.

The original TOS had this:

"You agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you within eighteen (18) months after the estimated delivery date." The original estimated delivery date given on the Star Citizen Kickstarter was November 2014.

18 months was May/June which was also when he started trying to get a refund. Until that point it was up to RSI to decide if they wanted to issue a refund or not. This guy played by the rules laid out in the original TOS, the one RSI has rewritten twice now in attempts to limit consumer rights.

Abefroman · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda_sl said:
I disagree to a point. This guy sounds like an OG kickstarter backer and not one of the late comers. If so then he signed on before all theadditionsstretch goals shot development time into the stratosphere. He would have also been subject to at least two rewrites of the TOS, both of which have attempted to limit refunds and take away consumer rights. I won't defend the stupidity of spending 3k on screenshots and promises but it should ALWAYS be your right as a consumer to get a refund if something is flawed with the product, in this case the constant changing of the TOS and moving of promised release dates.

You are letting your hate for this game affect your judgement. That would destroy the fucking game industry.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Eidal_sl said:
No, you can't define the product as "the game the guy who spent $3k on pictures wanted." These people want a pipedream that isn't going to happen; 95 percent of them are going to be unsatisfied and wish for a refund. What about the backers who also end up unsatisfied, but they waited too long and between the companies good-will attempt to deliver depleting the cash reserves and panicked other backers, no more money remains?

It doesn't matter what we wanted, it matters what was delivered, and that has been a big fat nothing much. He "donated" on the understanding that he would have a finished product by June of this year at the very latest. RSI failed to deliver that product to him and he has every right to expect a refund because of it.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Abefroman_sl said:
You are letting your hate for this game affect your judgement. That would destroy the fucking game industry.

It would do no such thing. It would stop Kickstarter companies from overpromising and then eternally delaying and stringing their consumers along.

Abefroman · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda_sl said:
It would do no such thing. It would stop Kickstarter companies from overpromising and then eternally delaying and stringing their consumers along.

Under your belief everyone would have been able to get a refund at almost any time under every expansion in a MMO. GTA5 would have gotten destroyed also.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

You are completely missing my argument. My belief is not that you should be able to request a refund at any time. RSI has failed at delivering a finished product they promised to deliver in the original TOS timeframe. This gives this guy the right to request a refund and they 100% should have to honor it. Once the product has been delivered then all right to a refund go away because RSI delivered on what they promised.

Abefroman · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda_sl said:
it should ALWAYS be your right as a consumer to get a refund if something is flawed with the product, in this case the constant changing of the TOS and moving of promised release dates.

Right there destroys the game industry.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

How? If you're focusing on the word 'flawed' that applies more to a physical product. The 'flaw' in RSI's case would be failing to deliver a product when they said they would.

Tuco · Jul 14, 2016

Eidal_sl said:
I love to mock this hopium dream as much as any grounded cynic, but frankly, I don't think these people are entitled to refunds. There is no conceivable way the crowdfunding model will work if the company, at any time, is vulnerable to essentially a bank run. I'd rather see adults held accountable for their actions: if someone on the internet convinces you to give them $ and they'll make something cool, and they fail to make something you think is cool, you aren't likely to get your $ back. Perhaps more importantly, I don't think you're entitled to itif a valid attempt was made to see the project through.

Regardless of SCO's ultimate fate, I don't think anyone would deny that they're trying.

agree 100%

Abefroman · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda_sl said:
How? If you're focusing on the word 'flawed' that applies more to a physical product. The 'flaw' in RSI's case would be failing to deliver a product when they said they would.

Every game released is flawed and usually takes multiple patches to fix. Refund. GTA5 delayed its online mode. Refund. Every MMO promises this or that in XPACS and doesn't deliver. Refund. TOS change all the fucking time for every online service and game. Play a game 10 years don't like the new TOS, refund!

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Now you're just misconstruing willfully.

Abefroman · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda_sl said:
Now you're just misconstruing willfully.

No I am not. Those were your words and that would be the outcome for what you wanted. Mighty NO 9 is a legitimate game to gripe about for backers wanting a refund. Nobody at this point in time doesn't know what the fuck is going on in Star Citizen. ESPECIALLY if you drop 3 fucking K on it.

Eidal · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda, your concept on how thingsoughtto work simplycan not work. Once the project launches, the company is no longer capable of making all backers whole again should they seek a refund. Do we need to examine the line graph of a typical company's cash reserves as they work towards launching their first project, or are we on the same page here? They certainly aren't capable of this once they pass their estimated launch date. Do you propose that the company be required to maintain cash reserves on hand to cover 100 percent of people seeking refunds? Or are you proposing that the company just do "first come, first serve" on refunds until they have no more money and tough fucking shit to the group of backers who didn't want a refund OR the group of backers that wanted a refund but they ran out of money. Do you see how laughably stupid this is?

The only scenario in which a company is actually capable of refunding 100 percent of people seeking refunds is if they get to a successful launch and recoup all the losses incurred during development.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Once again, it doesn't matter what this guy did or didn't know. The TOS he agreed to REQUIRED a finished product to be delivered by June of this year at the very latest. RSI failed, RSI broke the TOS, guy deserves an out from the contract. Your other examples just trying to strawman my argument into The Sky is Falling territory.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Eidal_sl said:
Skanda, your concept on how thingsoughtto work simplycan not work. Once the project launches, the company is no longer capable of making all backers whole again should they seek a refund. Do we need to examine the line graph of a typical company's cash reserves as they work towards launching their first project, or are we on the same page here? They certainly aren't capable of this once they pass their estimated launch date. Do you propose that the company be required to maintain cash reserves on hand to cover 100 percent of people seeking refunds? Or are you proposing that the company just do "first come, first serve" on refunds until they have no more money and tough fucking shit to the group of backers who didn't want a refund OR the group of backers that wanted a refund but they ran out of money. Do you see how laughably stupid this is?

The only scenario in which a company is actually capable of refunding 100 percent of people seeking refunds is if they get to a successful launch and recoup all the losses incurred during development.

Doesn't matter, your company makes a promise to a consumer and willfully breaks it then your company absolutely should get fucked into the ground.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Washingtonhas already gone after one company that failed to deliver on their Kickstarter promises. Now Consumer rights are a state to state thing but that is precedence that Kickstarter backers have all the same protections as regular consumers.

a_skeleton_03 · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda_sl said:
Once again, it doesn't matter what this guy did or didn't know. The TOS he agreed to REQUIRED a finished product to be delivered by June of this year at the very latest. RSI failed, RSI broke the TOS, guy deserves an out from the contract. Your other examples just trying to strawman my argument into The Sky is Falling territory.

You are missing that they announced multiple times that the June date was broken and said to ask for refunds then. He was told that the contract was breached and was given a timeframe to ask for that money back. He instead opted to wait longer. In doing so he accepted a new contract that said no refunds.

Abefroman · Jul 14, 2016

Skanda, you're a really good poster. I think you need a snickers bro.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
You are missing that they announced multiple times that the June date was broken and said to ask for refunds then. He was told that the contract was breached and was given a timeframe to ask for that money back. He instead opted to wait longer. In doing so he accepted a new contract that said no refunds.

http://www.mmogames.com/gamenews/tos...und-difficult/

The somewhat good news here is for players who have already backed Star Citizen, as they continue to be affected by the old ToS clause, which stated that backers were able to request a refund if Star Citizen wasn't released within 18 months of the game's estimated release date.

http://www.pcgamesn.com/star-citizen...itizen-refunds

Anyone who pledged before June 10 is still bound by the old TOS, fortunately. However, there's another clause in there that also means you're still not guaranteed to see your money back. If your money has been spent during development, which it probably has, it's gone, say the terms.

Legally that last bit probably means fuck all to a court.

Skanda · Jul 14, 2016

Abefroman_sl said:
I think you need a snickers bro.

Mars bars 4 life!

Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

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