Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Isnt SQ42 just an updated Wing Commander? I think the Freelancer expectations point more towards the PU part of the game. I'm not seeing many box sales for SQ42 either, since most backers have it already. Anyway, IF they actually deliver the PU it shouldnt be hard to stay profitable with DLC and cosmetics, since pretty much every mediocre MMO these days manages that. That's the point though: IF. I'm curious how soon they start selling monocles for $80 though, gonna be a nice drama spike at that point.

I'm not saying they will or won't sell millions but this would have to tickle the fancy of a lot of people. They are trying to do that with so many gameplay elements all in one game which could still sink them. But not being on the console hurts them and hurts them bad. but if this was a game like others I don't think it would have been made.

The reason why so many games today are complete garbage with stagnant story telling and content is because of hardware limitations on the console. It's not that you can't tell a great story with less hardware, look at past generation games, but good luck selling it to a publisher or a public that wants fancy/sexy things. The thing is there are enough people on the console to justify it regardless. Fuck gameplay and fuck your own game if you can milk a tastey IP into the ground in 3-4 games before it's put out to pasture (looking at you EA). Games with a wide release that take in 5+ million in sales are multi platform releases or they simply don't get made. I can't even think of an exception to that outside of maybe an MMO or two but I'm sure someone will dig one up to show how wrong I am. However I'm speaking in general and not in absolute terms. Most big AAA games are console games that happen to get a PC port. The slowest hardware (XBone) dictates what everyone gets to experience. Ironically DX12 won't do dick for the XBone due to how it's architecture works.

There is no fucking way SC can make it to the console without a publisher paying for the conversion so PC sales have to be it. You have another problem. It's Sci-Fi. This turns a lot of people off right off the bat. It won't even matter if Star Marine is the new benchmark that all other FPS are measured by. A lot of people like contemporary games like BF and CoD and to them that is their god. Those are the same people that if they did try the game they would be bored and quit in a day or two. Because you won't be able to run around like a psyco spraying grenades and bullets everywhere.

You might get the Destiny crowd. They are ripe for the taking since so many are fed up with Bungie so that's probably their best chance. The problem is all of those people are on the console for a reason granted some only got a console for Destiny at first but you can best those people have since largely justified that investment. They got the console for a number of reasons. It's relatively cheap. It's easy to get into. They even get games custom tailored for them. =p

Now try and convince this crowd they need at least a half decent computer to play SC on medium and they can forget about ever actually playing it in 4k or 8k without shelling out a couple of thousand dollars. A lot of these people still think they are getting 4k image quality from their 4k TV when they play a PS4 game on it. It's also the same people that think Destiny has this amazing story just wait... Maybe Bungie's plan is to release the supposed novel sized story in flash cards one paragraph at a time. Should be all out in 10 to 15 years but at the current pace it's more like 30. Maybe we will find out the ending when I retire!

So yeah CIG has a lot working against them. They will have no choice but to do the DLC Mission Disks and have a micro transaction store. Although they repeatedly said they wouldn't do it I wouldn't put it past them to put ships in there too. IMO as long as the ships they sell are at or lower than the cost of the maximum amount of cash you can spend per week (which they still plan to implement) it would be fine. Their problem is those ships cost more than $20 already by release that cost is expected to increase by at least 50% putting every single ship outside of the $20-25 limit they plan to introduce.

So many issues to address and we aren't going to get an answer anytime soon.

I don't get how anyone on this forum, who follow or have followed multiple MMOs through development, could be even remotely concerned about the amount of time this game seems to be taking. Anyone who could be assed to do it can find reams of data about the progress being made, more so than any other MMO in development I've ever seen. More than that, you can play elements of the game as they're completed; Arena Commander is more fun with more options as each patch releases - currently 25 flyable ships with the ability to customize their loadouts. The new matchmaker in the current alpha allows you to team up with friends for squadron battles, you can do races, you can play against AI or players.

Why do I mention this? Think about another large budget MMO that recently came out - ESO. What could you do in that game 2.5 years into development? NOTHING. You didn't even know about it, because they didn't even announce anything until it was 5+ years in development. Let's keep in mind that after 5 years of development, they were already 100 million+ in the RED. Add to that another 2 years of redoing shit, and they were really in trouble monetarily by the time they released, so much so, that much of the original vision was compromised because the guys holding the purse strings started to make the calls. SC doesn't have that problem. They are still in the black - everything they've done so far is paid for. They're still making consistent money on a month to month basis, even with fan burnout. When Star Marine launches, the funding malaise you've seen in the last month will be lifted - mark my words. Forget Star Marine, though - think about when multi-crew drops in the near future. People actually able to play on each other's ships and slug it out with other large ships? People are going to be excited and willing to spend even more. Let's not forget Squadron 42 coming out. This game isn't just an updated Wing Commander; it's more like a cross between Wing Commander and Mass Effect and Unreal. A lot of the people who want that game already have it - this is true, but I think there will be a larger audience that will want to play it and will based on reviews, footage, etc. Let's keep in mind that EVERY additional sale is almost pure profit - The game is paid for already. There's no publisher to take a cut of sales.

So, if you're worried about the time frame, you shouldn't be, for two reasons - (1) MMO's take a while, and (2) the funding is NOT drying up anytime soon, with one caveat - progress needs to continue to be made and displayed.

If we're still at this point of development (no major releases, bunch of alpha modules still going on etc.) at the 5 or 6 year mark then I'm concerned it's taking a lot of time. We'll hit 3 years this novemeber right? Not worried at all at this point. I wouldn't be worried at 5 years either because the game either comes out or it doesn't. I'll judge it then.

Blackwulf_sl said:

I don't get how anyone on this forum, who follow or have followed multiple MMOs through development, could be even remotely concerned about the amount of time this game seems to be taking. Anyone who could be assed to do it can find reams of data about the progress being made, more so than any other MMO in development I've ever seen. More than that, you can play elements of the game as they're completed; Arena Commander is more fun with more options as each patch releases - currently 25 flyable ships with the ability to customize their loadouts. The new matchmaker in the current alpha allows you to team up with friends for squadron battles, you can do races, you can play against AI or players.

Why do I mention this? Think about another large budget MMO that recently came out - ESO. What could you do in that game 2.5 years into development? NOTHING. You didn't even know about it, because they didn't even announce anything until it was 5+ years in development. Let's keep in mind that after 5 years of development, they were already 100 million+ in the RED. Add to that another 2 years of redoing shit, and they were really in trouble monetarily by the time they released, so much so, that much of the original vision was compromised because the guys holding the purse strings started to make the calls. SC doesn't have that problem. They are still in the black - everything they've done so far is paid for. They're still making consistent money on a month to month basis, even with fan burnout. When Star Marine launches, the funding malaise you've seen in the last month will be lifted - mark my words. Forget Star Marine, though - think about when multi-crew drops in the near future. People actually able to play on each other's ships and slug it out with other large ships? People are going to be excited and willing to spend even more. Let's not forget Squadron 42 coming out. This game isn't just an updated Wing Commander; it's more like a cross between Wing Commander and Mass Effect and Unreal. A lot of the people who want that game already have it - this is true, but I think there will be a larger audience that will want to play it and will based on reviews, footage, etc. Let's keep in mind that EVERY additional sale is almost pure profit - The game is paid for already. There's no publisher to take a cut of sales.

So, if you're worried about the time frame, you shouldn't be, for two reasons - (1) MMO's take a while, and (2) the funding is NOT drying up anytime soon, with one caveat - progress needs to continue to be made and displayed.

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Just one thing. As I said before Chris has a budget currently that spends according to what they "expect" to take in trough pledges not what the funding currently stands at. That means in their budget they have already spent past at least 65 million. Remember he said he is keeping about 20 million in an emergency fund. It's not that they spent the entire amount and they are taking out loans. That would be shockingly bad. No. What they are doing is front loading more of the development now (3D art for planetside and ships) instead of doing it later. Lots of money earmarked for the PU. At least that is what they have been talking about. Some of that progress is what we should see come Gamescom in 3 weeks. But realistically Chris said we won't see major content for the PU until late fall/winter at the earliest and I would say that's being optimistic. They are still working on the first 3 planetside locations but are almost 100% done. They just started to discuss what other planetside locations they are are doing next (about 2 weeks ago) and then it's onto the modeling phase. They have already done multiple planetside locations up to the Design/Concept stage so I'm guessing they will pick from that pool so they can start Grayboxing.

The point is money has been earmarked that they don't have. It's just that it's earmarked in the future (I think it's about 6 months ahead). Which means at present spending they would run out of cash in about 6 months at the earliest if funding stopped suddenly. It gives Chris time to implement his emergency budget which he said he has already worked out ahead of time to complete the core of the game including, if required, a cut down version of SQ42 (chapter 1 only and implement other chapters as funds allow).

Don't ask me to find the quote but I recall him mentioning that his budget is currently on target for about 100-125 million. Which means he would need to raise another 50million. I know the math doesn't work. It doesn't because they have to pay taxes on the pledges because it counts as income. But he is spending so much his tax write off must be fucking insane. So I could be entirely wrong in how much they still need.

Release date is maybe 2 years out. So long as major modules get released I think they have a better than fair chance to raise 25 million per year considering they are raising well over 30 million a year now. If not he will have to dip into the piggy bank. My concern is they need a boat load of money for live-ops. If they spend everything on development they will basically have no money to keep the game going. That's my personal concern.

Another 2 years in development would make it average in terms of how long it takes them to shit out a AAA title compared to any other studio but with like 3-5 times the content. Before another person says impossible look at CDPR and Witcher 3. They made that game practically for peanuts. I think it cost them about 35million but they needed to raise about 20million from outside sources (Nvidia, MS and Sony (for the console ports). The point is they made that on the cheap but at the end I think they had something like 250 people working on the game from a start of something like 30 or 40 from the original dev team? Except that was made in Poland where cost of living is a bit lower than in the US. =p

Sorry for getting off track but it's important to keep perspective.

Variise_sl said:

Just one thing. As I said before Chris has a budget currently that spends according to what they "expect" to take in trough pledges not what the funding currently stands at. That means in their budget they have already spent past at least 65 million. Remember he said he is keeping about 20 million in an emergency fund. It's not that they spent the entire amount and they are taking out loans. That would be shockingly bad. No. What they are doing is front loading more of the development now (3D art for planetside and ships) instead of doing it later. Lots of money earmarked for the PU. At least that is what they have been talking about. Some of that progress is what we should see come Gamescom in 3 weeks. But realistically Chris said we won't see major content for the PU until late fall/winter at the earliest and I would say that's being optimistic. They are still working on the first 3 planetside locations but are almost 100% done. They just started to discuss what other planetside locations they are are doing next (about 2 weeks ago) and then it's onto the modeling phase. They have already done multiple planetside locations up to the Design/Concept stage so I'm guessing they will pick from that pool so they can start Grayboxing.

The point is money has been earmarked that they don't have. It's just that it's earmarked in the future (I think it's about 6 months ahead). Which means at present spending they would run out of cash in about 6 months at the earliest if funding stopped suddenly. It gives Chris time to implement his emergency budget which he said he has already worked out ahead of time to complete the core of the game including, if required, a cut down version of SQ42 (chapter 1 only and implement other chapters as funds allow).

Don't ask me to find the quote but I recall him mentioning that his budget is currently on target for about 100-125 million. Which means he would need to raise another 50million. I know the math doesn't work. It doesn't because they have to pay taxes on the pledges because it counts as income. But he is spending so much his tax write off must be fucking insane. So I could be entirely wrong in how much they still need.

Release date is maybe 2 years out. So long as major modules get released I think they have a better than fair chance to raise 25 million per year considering they are raising well over 30 million a year now. If not he will have to dip into the piggy bank. My concern is they need a boat load of money for live-ops. If they spend everything on development they will basically have no money to keep the game going. That's my personal concern.

Another 2 years in development would make it average in terms of how long it takes them to shit out a AAA title compared to any other studio but with like 3-5 times the content. Before another person says impossible look at CDPR and Witcher 3. They made that game practically for peanuts. I think it cost them about 35million but they needed to raise about 20million from outside sources (Nvidia, MS and Sony (for the console ports). The point is they made that on the cheap but at the end I think they had something like 250 people working on the game from a start of something like 30 or 40 from the original dev team? Except that was made in Poland where cost of living is a bit lower than in the US. =p

Sorry for getting off track but it's important to keep perspective.

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You should read his letter today - you might feel better.Letter from the Chairman - Roberts Space Industries


Sample:

You all know that already; you've lived that. You've seen Star Citizen evolve and start to come together. You've watched our atoms form molecules, our modules form a real, playable game (that you can boot up and play today!). There are people out there who are going to tell you that this is all a BAD THING. That it's 'feature creep' and we should make a smaller, less impressive game for the sake of having it out more quickly or in order to meet artificial deadlines. Now I'll answer those claims in one word: Bullshit!

Star Citizen matters BECAUSE it is big, because it is a bold dream. It is something everyone else is scared to try. You didn't back Star Citizen because you want what you've seen before. You're here and reading this because we are willing to go big, to do the things that terrify publishers. You've trusted us with your money so we can build a game, not line our pockets. And we sure as hell didn't run this campaign so we could put that money in the bank, guarantee ourselves a profit and turn out some flimsy replica of a game I've made before. You went all in supporting us and we've gone all in making the game. Is Star Citizen today a bigger goal than I imagined in 2012? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing? Absolutely not: it's the whole damn point.

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Is that Chris or Curt giving the dream speech? Lol

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

This is the point that Variise doesn't get.

We have heard these amazing things before from other developers.

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To be fair, Curt Schilling isn't a developer. Chris Roberts brings a lot to the table.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

Curt "raised" $120M or so though. He might not be a developer but I don't think he was making design decisions.I don't think at this point Chris is making any design decisions either.He is a CEO just running operations.

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So, you don't really follow this game's development, do you?

Edit:
Even if they were both just running operations (not true in CR's case) - how can you compare a baseball player trying to run a 100 million dollar game project to a movie producer and game developer with a proven track record and hundreds of connections in the industry?

All they gotta do is put out the FPS and sell custom armors and they'll be right on the funding track again... a nerd and his money are easily parted.

Carl_sl said:

a nerd and his money are easily parted.

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Sad but true.

Blackwulf_sl said:

Sad but true.

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Honestly though? If I can put down my 25 or whatever it was and let them, set fire to their money, and they are perfectly happy buying their digital goods, I can't think of a better situation. As long as it doesn't change to a situation where now I have to blow my dollars.


^^ formatted in shatner speech apparently.

Interesting tidbit from today's10 for the Chairman video- a guy on Reddit transcribed it, and here's something worth getting a little hyped about, imo:

01:14:11 ? Is Star Citizen impossible to finish?

• CR - Doesn?t think it's impossible at all. Very do-able; people who feel like that don?t have the technical ability or imagination to do it, they?ve got the fundamental technology pretty much cracked
• They are going to show the first large world map at GamesCom - you are orbiting a gas giant that is 182,000 km in diameter with 3 or 4 moons which will take 2.5 hours to go between the moons at top speed in the fastest ship; because of this they will have the quantum drive quick jump to get between stuff but it's all in the same area/same level so no loading screens.
• Been actively working on the large world which is bigger precision for much larger distances - moved to 64 bit for all their 3D positions, blended with the zone system which is a dynamic container system, meaning you can have a zone inside a zone inside a zone which is a great way for sorting through the data for rendering needs and updates. Helps deal with the fact that they will have huge spaces with nothing and then areas with a lot of very dense information.
• The big challenge with Star Citizen is you have incredible fidelity but you also have incredible scale; no one has ever tackled that properly so they?ve built the core to handle that and the background streaming stuff.
• Will see some of the benefits of the streaming stuff with the 1.1.5 which will include 16 players which is double than before.
• It should have hardly any glitches when people are respawning because they are dynamically streaming and caching in a new way which will allow this big seamless world.
• The Frankfurt studio have people who built this engine and they have allowed us to do stuff you haven't seen in a normal 3D engine.
• The other big technical thing they are working on is the backend moving to 32 players for FPS, looking at multiple servers slaved together in the cloud to continue to improve this.
• There is nothing that they don't have a plan for. There is nothing on the roadmap that isn't doable. Just comes down to how long it takes to get it done, sometimes it takes longer than they like.
• "What do I say [to people who think this is impossible?]" Bull shit.

Curt Greeks