Star Citizen Online - The search for more money

Sylas_sl said:

Um yeah, while I agree dude's a faggot, and also RSI are faggots, Skanda has the right of it and you guys are kinda being little bitches right now trying to twist this into something it's not.

The argument is basically one of pre-orders.

If you pre-order a game that's coming out next month, and the game doesn't come out, you should be entitled to a refund, if said company issued and you agreed to a TOS that, entitled you to a refund. It's pretty fucking cut and dry.

of course it's not really a pre-order, its money to develop said game, but it's basically the same shit.

That's what happened in this particular case. He agreed to a TOS that promised a release date by X. Company can't keep changing the TOS to fuck him over, they missed the deadline. He's owed a refund. Good for him. Still a faggot though, 3k on concept art is lol.

this has nothing to do with MMOs or any other game that falls short of expectations, unless said company sells pre-orders of latest expansion promising X, and promising a refund if X isn't in it, and X ends up getting cut. Then yeah, they'll need to refund too, and expect to get sued/class action if they refuse.

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Agree, mostly, but a few points.

It doesn't always matter what TOS you agree to. A terms of service is often a pretty weak contract and usually can't supersede actual consumer protection laws. I say often and usually because some of the big players like Microsoft have had luck because they have an endless pool of attorney funding, which helps. It's the same way old people who get bilked into buying some dumb thing aren't immune to protection by the law just because they signed some shit they didn't understand. Or even when people do understand something, agree to it, and then later in court the law says the contract was fraudulent or not in good faith in the first place. Especially when/if they keep trying to change your contract on you with the threat you won't ever see the final product or service if you don't continue to agree to the new contracts.

And what about the people who never clicked 'agree' on a new Terms of Service? If we want to get particular, anyone who pledged and then never returned to the game/site to re-click the TOS should be getting issued automatic refunds, as the company is the one in breach of the contract.

I also disagree with the expectation of a lawsuit. Again, these are gamers, and the best groups of people to take advantage of are those who are so self-hating they'll attack their peers for trying to stand up for themselves and others. Only chance a lawsuit happens is if an actual state or agency gets involved, and I don't think RSI has done anything quite so nefarious as to warrant that, aside from having a dumb name, as it's not like the blatant ripping off of people that Brad undertook with Pantheon.

Which reminds me, we even saw this backlash when Pantheon was shitting the bed with their Kickstarter and people otherwise of sound judgment and reasonable respect calling people faggots for pulling their implied-but-not-close-to-even-promised pledge. Duuuuude, you made a pre-promise to pledge a certain amount at a future date if you're still interested in the project, how dare you try to pull that pledge before that certain date when your pre-promised pledge would be charged just because you're losing interest in the project?! You could hurt the game, maaan!! It's only a couple trips to the movies, what you can't afford to stay pledged cuz u poor?!

If anyone should have ever been sued it's Brad over Pantheon... err and Vanguard as I recall people trying to get refunds and being told to fuck off. At least EQN with Landmark are smart enough to at least try to push out some stillborn shitfest just so they can deny refunds.

In short, gamers are doormats and if a company is smart they just issue the minor amount of refunds knowing most gamers may even bitch a little but won't stand up for themselves so, no, you aren't going to be bankrupted by a few gamers who actual have a spine. They should have just issued the dude his money knowing there was plenty more and to avoid any additional backlash and scrutiny, because at this point more scrutiny is the last thing they need when there has already been jokes about your cultish behavior and doubts about your funding.

Pretty good episode (actually the last few AtV episodes have been good) - the interview with Tony Zurovich is worth watching (starts around 18:40):

Blackwulf_sl said:

Pretty good episode (actually the last few AtV episodes have been good) - the interview with Tony Zurovich is worth watching (starts around 18:40):

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AtV is usually a good viewing even though I have a personal loathing for Ben Lesnick. 10ftC is also typically pretty good. RtV otoh is nigh unwatchable.

Axamander_sl said:

AtV is usually a good viewing even though I have a personal loathing for Ben Lesnick. 10ftC is also typically pretty good. RtV otoh is nigh unwatchable.

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I never watch RtV - just read summary on reddit.

New article in PC Games (German magazine) -


Some pics:SC planet procedural tech - Album on Imgur

Article summary on Reddit:

No misunderstanding, they actually played it. Chris and Erin were there as well. There's also a new screenshot of mark hamils face, looks much better now than before.
Edit:
2.6 will launch Star Marine as separate module just like Arena Commander, this was also played by staff of PC Games and they are saying it's much more polished on the FPS side and feels a lot better than current rudimentary FPS in the PTU.
2.7 will bring procedural planets and you will be able to travel the whole stanton system and all planets and moons can be directly approached down to the surface.
Edit:
They say the new lighting system as part of the procedural planets build looks much more natural
They say that approaching the planet looks and technically feels better than with Elite Dangerous.
You can land anywhere manually, automatic landing gets yout to fixed positions i.e. landing zones.
Microtech and Hurston come in follow-up patches after 2.7
They aim to have Stanton fully playable i.e. with all stations and landing zones (according to CR about 40 locations) by end of 2016
There will be more jobs and missions as well.
Trading will be in by then
Chris describing that missions might be accepted up in space stations but could lead you down to planet surfaces, not clear if this is going to be in with 2.7 but seemingly something SQ42 will benefit from.
Planets and moons are revolving around suns, with naturally simulated day and night cycles.
When flying over the ocean they were noticing that the horizon had a correctly simulated curve.
Trees and Animals seemingly are planned (edit: doesn't seem to be in with 2.7, sorry) - they have them seemingly setup in pre-made templates they call eco-systems - these can be brushed over the planet surface, some magic blends the transitions to make it look naturally and consistent.
Planetary surface details are controlled by a dynamical LOD system.
Some pop-up was visible during the planetary approach but they described it as impressive regardless.
They were also impressed with the cloud system, which wasn't just a simple texture layer but seemingly is described what I assume is volumetric, i.e. they have deepth and height and impact visibility, leading to mountain crests piercing through clouds and valleys being covered.
They are writing that there isn't any artificially restricted view range, visibility is rather a result from their volumetric calculation of the athmosphere.
Parallax-Occlusion maps with dynamic tessellation is used for the surface details.
GTX 980 was used with 100 fps on the planetary surface, so performance seems to be pretty good already, sorry that was just editor benchmaks in game it was 45fps

Some stuff about the subsumption-AI saying NPCs might have hobbies and a virtual mind, allowing them to remember the player or be influenced in his opinions by the player. To avoid performance issues, they seemingly control the update cycles based on player proximitiy i.e. update cycles go to 1hz instead of 60hz if no one is around.
They also wrote that they were positively surprised that all employees at Foundry 42 Frankfurt that they had a chance to talk with seemed to be truthfuly grateful to be able to work on the project due to the challenge it represents. They specifically point out, that the enthusiasm didn't feel faked.

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EDIT: Let me be the first to say that if they got those release timelines from Chris Roberts, then take them with a grain of salt. If he said Star Marine is in 2.6 (the current build is 2.4, with 2.5 release imminent, btw) - then it might not actually be out until 2.who knows.

I posted this a few days ago on the old Rerolled site. Not sure if anyone's still looking over there. On a side note, I guess on Friday version 2.5 went to PTU (limited testers.)

New article in PC Games (German magazine) -

Some pics: SC planet procedural tech - Album on Imgur

Article summary on Reddit:

No misunderstanding, they actually played it. Chris and Erin were there as well. There's also a new screenshot of mark hamils face, looks much better now than before.
Edit:
2.6 will launch Star Marine as separate module just like Arena Commander, this was also played by staff of PC Games and they are saying it's much more polished on the FPS side and feels a lot better than current rudimentary FPS in the PTU.
2.7 will bring procedural planets and you will be able to travel the whole stanton system and all planets and moons can be directly approached down to the surface.
Edit:
They say the new lighting system as part of the procedural planets build looks much more natural
They say that approaching the planet looks and technically feels better than with Elite Dangerous.
You can land anywhere manually, automatic landing gets yout to fixed positions i.e. landing zones.
Microtech and Hurston come in follow-up patches after 2.7
They aim to have Stanton fully playable i.e. with all stations and landing zones (according to CR about 40 locations) by end of 2016
There will be more jobs and missions as well.
Trading will be in by then
Chris describing that missions might be accepted up in space stations but could lead you down to planet surfaces, not clear if this is going to be in with 2.7 but seemingly something SQ42 will benefit from.
Planets and moons are revolving around suns, with naturally simulated day and night cycles.
When flying over the ocean they were noticing that the horizon had a correctly simulated curve.
Trees and Animals seemingly are planned (edit: doesn't seem to be in with 2.7, sorry) - they have them seemingly setup in pre-made templates they call eco-systems - these can be brushed over the planet surface, some magic blends the transitions to make it look naturally and consistent.
Planetary surface details are controlled by a dynamical LOD system.
Some pop-up was visible during the planetary approach but they described it as impressive regardless.
They were also impressed with the cloud system, which wasn't just a simple texture layer but seemingly is described what I assume is volumetric, i.e. they have deepth and height and impact visibility, leading to mountain crests piercing through clouds and valleys being covered.
They are writing that there isn't any artificially restricted view range, visibility is rather a result from their volumetric calculation of the athmosphere.
Parallax-Occlusion maps with dynamic tessellation is used for the surface details.
GTX 980 was used with 100 fps on the planetary surface, so performance seems to be pretty good already, sorry that was just editor benchmaks in game it was 45fps
Some stuff about the subsumption-AI saying NPCs might have hobbies and a virtual mind, allowing them to remember the player or be influenced in his opinions by the player. To avoid performance issues, they seemingly control the update cycles based on player proximitiy i.e. update cycles go to 1hz instead of 60hz if no one is around.
They also wrote that they were positively surprised that all employees at Foundry 42 Frankfurt that they had a chance to talk with seemed to be truthfuly grateful to be able to work on the project due to the challenge it represents. They specifically point out, that the enthusiasm didn't feel faked.

Click to expand...

Note: Let me be the first to say that if they got those release timelines from Chris Roberts, then take them with a grain of salt. If he said Star Marine is in 2.6 (the current build is 2.4, with 2.5 release imminent, btw) - then it might not actually be out until 2.who knows.

The magazine got the timeline from CR himself via an interview, they printed.

a_skeleton_03 said:

Blackwulf you may not think I am telling the truth but I am glad you are here for this. I might harass you for being a fanboy but every game/movie/book/tv show needs fanboys to keep it and the dream alive.

We need you for a little objectivity from the "other side". I hope Variis and the other dude make it over here as well.

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Haha, thanks. I'm definitely still in the fanboy category. I am, however, realistic, and wouldn't sink too much money into something like this. I feel like the money I've spent is worth it, just because I'm entertained daily with discussions and news about the game, etc. I don't mind helping to keep it going for a while more. We do get noticeable progress, just a lot slower than CR ever predicts it.

Well, their latest "Around the Verse" episode just came out, and it's the best one yet. They show off a lot of cool shit they're working on , and you get to see a lot of the Idris (capital ship) interior when you see the procedural damage/sound tech they're working on. Worth a view, even if you just consider yourself a Sci-Fi nerd and not a fan of this game in particular.

a_skeleton_03 said:

Blackwulf you may not think I am telling the truth but I am glad you are here for this. I might harass you for being a fanboy but every game/movie/book/tv show needs fanboys to keep it and the dream alive.

We need you for a little objectivity from the "other side". I hope Variis and the other dude make it over here as well.

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I wasn't going to sign up as I felt my contributions over the past year+ has been utterly useless and a waste of time getting almost nothing but flak and some trolls but it was nice to be wrong. Thanks a_skeleton_03.

If anyone likes me thank a_skeleton_03. If anyone hates me thank a_skeleton_03.

As for the game...

I think they are finally switching back to this format of showing us stuff, they used to do this at the start, because they overcame so many major R&D issues over the past few months. People I think will be more receptive of SC with all the content they started showing off since last week with this new compressed (half the length) show format (less BS more substance) that seems to be slated to go on right up to release or at least for the foreseeable future. The R&D and features shown at least seem to be near final development before pushed to the public. Naturally nothing is final. Features implemented a year ago are about to become unrecognizable in some cases so drastic are the changes to them.

It's good for patient fans that get to see where all the time/money/effort has been sunk and it shows them that the features CIG talked about 2+ years ago as a maybe for 2+ years post release are near imminent release and good for detractors since they can point to this as the current bar/milestone (still far from finished product) so they can rage about it and both groups would be right.

2.5 (Covered in last weeks ATV:
)
This is locked down with testers and might hit the wider PTU this weekend.
2.6 is the "Star Marine" nearly full FPS feature set and they used R&D like the Procedural Player Cover System that doesn't require unique animations to overcome issues they had with the original FPS. They just got a brand new male base model so they have to get the male model 100% working with all current FPS features before 2.6 can ship. This is a first so no ETA.
2.7 is the first complete CryEngine rebuild that replaces the entire netcode and item/object system that has FPS locked SC since at least 2.4 that includes the first pass of a partially complete star system with the procedurally generated planets combined with hand crafted landing zones and all kinds of new missions and POIs. An atmosphere with impact to your ship based on it's aerodynamic model seems to be in so expect that (see first episode linked above for that). No ETA but it sounds like Nov/Dec at best.
2.8 Final First Pass of a complete star system (all planets/moons and maybe real day/night cycle) with full system implementation including the merchant/cargo transport feature implemented. This is Chris Roberts' current wet dream for a release this year. I have zero expectation of this milestone to be meet.

Anything with 2.7 and 2.8 is very iffy for 2016 so expect 2.6 and "Star Marine" to be the high bar for 2016 as that seems to be a more realistic milestone this time around. Took them over a year to get to this point simply because it didn't "feel" right. Star Marine was "done" last year so keep that in mind. It was kept back because it wasn't good enough and they spent the last year throwing R&D at it. They haven't shown us what the current iteration of Star Marine fully looks like so we don't know how player damage / healing is handled. We know what their end goal is but based on comments from the Devs they still won't have the full damage state and healing system fully implemented for Star Marine.

So if Star Marine FPS is your thing I think you can prepare to be happy in the coming months but for now cool your heels as there is no ETA. If it's 2.7 (possibly SQ42) content you want look to the Gamescom presentation on Aug 19th 9PM local time (Germany).

EDIT 1: If your only take away is one thing please let this be it:

EDIT 2: PC Games Interview with Chris Roberts:

0:17 Which space games have inspired you the most??
1:06 How would you describe the Wing Commander "formula"??
3:10 What are the most important gameplay elements for you in Star Citizen??
5:39 How do you handle all the expectations from more than 1.4 million backers??
9:21 Why are ship - and concept - sales still necessary for the project??
13:32 How does the game growing as much as it has, influence further development??
18:40 How would you describe the pressure onto yourself, coming from the project size??
23:27 What are the next content updates??
28:54 How will players experience all the lore and history in the universe of Star Citizen??
33:01 If you would do a remake of one of your classic games, would there be a favorite??

TLDR: Wall of text = content/context some claim I don't provide. Please kindly read.

Stuff starting to come out ahead of Gamescom this weekend. Do any of you speak German? Heh.

Star Citizen - Besuch bei Foundry 42: exklusive Eindrücke

Its the very same article (now put online) you referenced in this very thread post#2.

Dyvim said:

Its the very same article (now put online) you referenced in this very thread post#2.

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Well, both are German, but one is from "PC Games" and the other is "PC Games Hardware" - I mean, I only have Google to translate, but they sure seem different in content too. Maybe I'm crazy, though?

Hardware was spawned from the other one. They share some online content after a month to rake in on clicks and ads.