Star Wars : Rogue One

Royal · Dec 20, 2016

Lightning Lord Rule said:
Why did Cassian have a spanish/mexican accent? He's a spy/assassin right? Wouldn't that mean he'd have to have, or at least adopt periodically, a british accent to fit in with all of the Imperials he's traveling around?

Cassian wasn't really a front line spy himself. He was one of the Fulcrums for Rebel Intelligence (the same position that Ahsoka Tano and now Agent Kallus have on the Rebels TV show). He would recruit others, coordinate the activities of other agents beneath him, and act as a point of contact for informants. And occasionally have to get his hands dirty as well (which we saw).

Lightning Lord Rule said:
Vader issues: First of all, the temple looked very Mordor-ish. Don't rip off visuals from other famous franchises like that, jesus christ people. Second, why would he have that place on some lava planet? Just guessing, but I'd bet Vader isn't the type to want to be around a lot of fire after what happened to him.

It was one of the homages to Ralph McQuarrie's original concept art for the OT. Some of the early drafts of the screenplay for ESB had Vader's personal fortress as a location, which Lucas envisioned on a volcanic planet. The Mustafar we saw in the prequels was volcanic and pretty much the place where Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist and Darth Vader was born. So it's a fitting place for his digs on that front.

The movie is full of this type homages and call backs to McQuarrie's concept art, much of which concerned story elements that were ultimately changed and never appeared in the OT. One of the deepest cuts was to the drawing that was ultimately responsible for the final look of Vader as we would come to know him.

In the scene where Vader is standing on the edge of the Mon Cal ship as the Tantive IV pulls away, he's pretty much standing out in open space as he looks down on the ship. This was a call back to one of the very earliest drafts of Ep IV. Not only was Luke not a Skywalker at the time, he wasn't even Luke. In one part of the script, Vader was pursuing Deak Starkiller from ship to ship so McQuarrie drew Vader with a mask that would allow him to breath while out in open space. Lucas liked the look so much he changed Vader's overall appearance to have him wearing the mask all of the time.

Zweischneid · Dec 20, 2016

Mist said:
So where's the disconnect between these guys and the people in this thread that liked the movie?

People here who liked the movie liked that it was fan service with little wink wink moments like Yavin IV, Red 5 getting shot, etc.., They also like the idea of a "war movie" in Star Wars, which means more to them than some of the pacing issues, lack of charismatic leads, inane character moments like Saw deciding to die for plot convenience or "suddenly romance" between Jyn and Andor, etc.. that even R1-fans usually acknowledge.

People feeling R1 was underwhelming (myself included, also, not bad, just not as good as it could've been), focus more heavily on the flat characters (as RLM said, Rey and Finn from TFA were poorly written characters, but charismatic actors elevated their roles significantly). It's people for who "solving" a non-issue like the Death Star vulnerability nobody but the most hard-core star-wars fans ever cared about and visual spectacle doesn't make up for lack of charismatic leads (doubly so if the outcome of the movie is known).

To me, R1 has an "Independence Day: Resurgence"-kinda problem. Visuals are great and it incorporates some hard-core fan questions (few people beyond the hard-core fans really cared about) into the script, but a charismatic lead was nowhere to be seen, some questionable plot turns were clearly just included for nostalgia sake and, for all the visual bombast, the big battles were kinda stale, because you're not invested in the characters.

Funny enough, both sides like the China-audience-fan-service blind-swordsman/big-gun duo, though I kinda liked them in no small part precisely because they didn't fit the gritty theme the rest of the movie was going for and could've just as easily been in a more "high-space-fantasy" Star Wars movie next to a young Han Solo or trading jokes with BB-8 or something.

Royal · Dec 20, 2016

sneakyflute said:
Then they tease a burgeoning romance between Jyn and the Mexican guy when it was never earned.

I didn't see the closing scene with Cassian and Jyn as an attempt to inject the indications of romance to add weight to their deaths. I saw two people who had just gone through a hell of an ordeal and in spite of their success they would not live to see it bear fruit. As they were about to meet their end, each simply wanted the other to know that they were not alone. While obvious, it was the sentiment behind it that was the message and is what gave that moment weight.

Caliane · Dec 20, 2016

Lanx said:
Vader never held military rank, he's just some guy in a black suit that popped out of nowhere and all of a sudden he's palpatine's loyal dog. His title is sith lord, which means nothing, he is only granted star destroyers (the executor comes after anh), and the 501, to carry out duties, usually just slaying down rebels and insurrections for 20 years.

It's no different than if obama sent his own jason bourne bodyguard to deal with the boston bombers, john kerry wouldn't get in his way, but he could.

This isn't true.
What is, and isn't "canon" is of course up for debate. The original trilogy never expressly gave him a military rank, iirc. Just the elements we know. Piloting a Tie, commanding the Executor, etc.

Jedi in the Clone wars are expressly titled Generals. Clones wars is canon I think, so at least would have that rank. (although, as Anakin, not Vader...)

Supreme Commander (Empire)

Lanx · Dec 20, 2016

i'm starting to really hate this trend of SJW cast of ppl.

From recent memory mag 7
black guy, mexican, indian, korean, and 3 white guys, funny enough besides denzel, the rest of the SJW minorities could be explained.

same thing here
white girl lead, mexican, paki, 2 asians, and fat black guy.

I felt forrest whitaker was as pointless as sam jackson as mace windu

paki was horrible and just there to build muslim relations

mexican guy was "ok", but a horrible lead actor

I'm assuming i have bias, but i'm actually more critical of asian actors, and of course Donnie Yen is touch notch Wushu, finally erasing the horribleness of darth maul park

Fat Asian is actually known more as an actor/director, he's good, "almost" comes close to Chow yun Fat in terms of screen presence, high praise considering my avatar.

Look in the end, i felt it was a hodgepodge of SJW goodness, and feel that the best parts were the two asian buddies, and wanted more, however they're also the most seasoned out of the bunch, i mean Fat Asian and Donnie Yen have both been acting since the 80's.

Overall

B/C it dilutes the "strength" of the film, I mean if you're gonna get minorities in this hodgepodge, you could have at least gotten the best mexican and paki in film, and give the black a guy a better role than fat darth vader

Caliane said:
This isn't true.
What is, and isn't "canon" is of course up for debate. The original trilogy never expressly gave him a military rank, iirc. Just the elements we know. Piloting a Tie, commanding the Executor, etc.

Jedi in the Clone wars are expressly titled Generals. Clones wars is canon I think, so at least would have that rank. (although, as Anakin, not Vader...)

Supreme Commander (Empire)

Vader is only called "Lord" in the new comics, he is put under the command of grand general tagge, for being the sole survivor of the death star, he has no fleet, no army, no 501, and still no rank.

in the end Tagge fucks up enough and Vader fixes enough that Tagge is demoted and Vader gets the entire fleet and the Executor (which leads to TESB), still w/o a military rank.

And yes since the aquisition 2014 comics are cannon.

Royal · Dec 20, 2016

Lanx said:
I felt forrest whitaker was as pointless as sam jackson as mace windu.

I always felt like Jackson was cast as Mace Windu because because he was such a big name at the time and Lucas, in spite of it being a Star Wars movie, was trying to go for box office draw while addressing the old criticism of his original trilogy being too pale. So he brought in a hot, high profile black actor to play /gasp ... a jedi.

Forrest Whitaker's casting is different in that he was cast to play an already established character who happened to be black in the source material (The Clone Wars cartoon series). I think tying in the series was the driving factor there and Saw was a choice that made a lot of sense given the time period of the movie and what it was about.

Intrinsic · Dec 20, 2016

Lanx said:
B/C it dilutes the "strength" of the film, I mean if you're gonna get minorities in this hodgepodge, you could have at least gotten the best mexican and paki in film, and give the black a guy a better role than fat darth vader

This I can agree with. Especially Jyn's part. Even my wife hated her.

Hoss · Dec 20, 2016

Royal said:
I've actually seen a few people say they thought it was the live actor when he first appeared and didn't realize until later that it was a CGI creation. I guess when we know for a fact that there are a lot of people out there thinking the movie was the sequel to TFA in spite of all of the marketing we shouldn't be surprised that some fraction of them will also have no idea that the guy has been dead for over 20 years.

I never thought it was the actual actor. Even if I didn't remember that he was dead, I knew he'd have to be way too old by now. But I did think it was a real person that they did a helluva makeup job on. Same with leia.

So how many actors were in R1 who were also in ANH? I'm thinking James earl jones, and C3PO are probably it.

Royal · Dec 20, 2016

Hoss said:
I never thought it was the actual actor. Even if I didn't remember that he was dead, I knew he'd have to be way too old by now. But I did think it was a real person that they did a helluva makeup job on. Same with leia.

So how many actors were in R1 who were also in ANH? I'm thinking James earl jones, and C3PO are probably it.

Red Leader and Gold Leader were both in it although their screen time was in the form of footage originally shot for Ep IV and later edited out that was updated by ILM.

Phazael · Dec 20, 2016

Lanx said:
Vader is only called "Lord" in the new comics, he is put under the command of grand general tagge, for being the sole survivor of the death star, he has no fleet, no army, no 501, and still no rank.

Vader is referred to as Lord Vader several times in A New Hope.

Lanx · Dec 20, 2016

Phazael said:
Vader is referred to as Lord Vader several times in A New Hope.

I didn't mean "ONLY" in comics, i'm saying from the comics, since my main reference pt is darth vader 1-25, the in-between anh->esb

also, ppl are crazy, already bad movie rips out, i had one editing annoyance where they kept on editing Donnie Yens staff work and just showing images of the stupid girl cowering behind a metal drum, edited out, so much better and fluid, it's not like for narrative purposes you HAVE to know what the little white girl is doing every 20s, do you?
(being processed if not seen already)

Leon · Dec 20, 2016

Royal said:
I didn't see the closing scene with Cassian and Jyn as an attempt to inject the indications of romance to add weight to their deaths. I saw two people who had just gone through a hell of an ordeal and in spite of their success they would not live to see it bear fruit. As they were about to meet their end, each simply wanted the other to know that they were not alone. While obvious, it was the sentiment behind it that was the message and is what gave that moment weight.

That's how I saw it too. Mother fucker was a lone assassin in the rebellion his entire life, doing shit he wasn't proud of but that had to be done. She was a human debri basically until she got thrown in this story. They did what they had to do and they died together after completing their mission.

This is what I loved about this movie. When I read the premises of it a long time I knew was going to get pissed if the team that stole the plans somehow managed to live to tell the tale. Disney didn't pussy out and I left the movie theaters satisfied.

The battle both in space and on the beach was all I had hoped for, it felt like star wars and gave me goose bumps as soon as the rebels went in fight mode to help rogue one.

Hoss · Dec 20, 2016

I wonder if there's any correlation between people who saw this in 3D and people who thought the cgi characters were garbage. I saw it in 2D and I thought they looked fine, other than being a little off.

Intrinsic · Dec 20, 2016

Unless there was a big difference between the depth of the characters on screen, maybe not? The biggest tell for me is always the CGI character's gaze when looking at another individual or object. There's just something hollow about their eyes that jumps out. It is like when my cat is staring in to that middle-distance at nothing but still looking in my direction.

Faltigoth · Dec 20, 2016

I didn't notice the Tarkin CGI at all, but I was pretty into the story and not paying attention to shit like that. Like I said earlier, other than, 'holy shit that guy looks exactly like Peter Cushing', having him be CGI never even crossed my mind. Thinking back, I felt something off about him, like he didn't mesh with the background quite right, but I didn't notice it in the course of the movie. Leia didn't bother me either, I thought she looked fine, and I knew she was CGI. I chalk it up to my knowledge of Cushing, I only know him from Star Wars, most of his work was done before my time, so I don't have the kind of familiarity with him as I would if I saw, say, a CGI Rock or Matt Damon or someone else from the last 20 years.

I am obviously not as picky as many of the folks here, I just enjoyed it for what it was. But then again I'm that guy who took a day off work just for this and went to an early morning show where I shared the experience with a half dozen other middle aged nerds who probably did the same shit as me. So my view is gonna be biased no matter what, as long as there are no Jar Jar levels of ass-ery I am probably going to love it.

Lightning Lord Rule · Dec 20, 2016

To me, the biggest problem with Rogue One isn't anything to do with the movie. Rather, it's the opportunity cost of doing this movie vs doing something new. Either in the TFA era, or after ROTJ, or hell, even going back to KOTOR era maybe. The movie is entertaining, but completely unnecessary. We didn't need to know about any of the events depicted in this movie really, they're just as well explained by the one line in the opening crawl of ANH. Similarly to how all three prequels are just as adequately explained by Obi-Wan's few lines of exposition in ANH.

What's crazy is that this is the same company who has handled building the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which is really well crafted overall.

They could map the same concept onto Star Wars. All of the "anthology" movies are about peripheral characters and events, and all of the "Episode X" movies tie in those peripheral events and characters to deal with or explain larger events. Similar to Ironman/Thor/Captain America stand alone movies tie into the Avengers movies.

They have so many Star Wars archetypes to play with, they could easily make this work. Just to name a few:

-A bounty hunter focused movie. This is my dream scenario. Please please please do something like this. A galactic badass roaming around hunting people/aliens down in some kind of cool ship. But, he stumbles upon someone or something related to a larger threat... Basically a space western.
-A jedi training focused movie. Basically a martial arts movie but with laser swords instead of chinese weapons and what have you. Lots of potential here as well.
-A dark jedi/sith/dark side focused movie. It could almost be a Raiders of the Lost Ark type of a movie, with the dark jedi hunting for some powerful artifact from back in the day to rule the galaxy, and the good guys have to stop them.
-A new galactic political power is rising and threatening things. WW2 was the inspiration for a lot of the OT, why not use something modeled on the soviets and the cold war to inspire and inform this new galactic evil empire? You could have cloaked ships(analogous to submarine warfare), superweapons that aren't death stars (analogous to nuclear weapons), a conventional starship arms race (analogous to the US and USSR developing more and better jets and bombers over the course of the cold war). All kinds of ways you could go here.

All of these are things I haven't seen from Star Wars.
(Caveat: I haven't seen Rebels, or Clone Wars, or read any EU books, or anything like that. Most of what I have seen regarding those properties justifies my decision to skip them. I have played a few of the video games, like KOTOR and the Jedi Outcast and Academy games, which were great).

Malakriss · Dec 20, 2016

This was the tester movie for spinoffs as everyone knew it was a one-off that wouldn't diverge into a separate track like Marvel standalones. I do agree this wasn't made to expand the Star Wars audience it was purely for the fans who would appreciate another perspective to the universe from a different genre's point of view.

The actual box office doesn't matter as much as the merchandising and keeping Star Wars "fresh" in between the major episodes. TFA was narrow in scope and focused on pushing a couple new generation characters while bringing back all of the returning ones. Rogue One was about touching on a broad spectrum of Star wars details which all translate into toys and Legos. I'm hoping that means Episode 8 will involve more than X-wings vs generic TIEs or Red vs Blue lightsabers round 2.

Lightning Lord Rule · Dec 20, 2016

I agree with that assessment Malakriss. I also think it's a poor strategy for long term success in comparison to the MCU strategy I outlined above.

DirkDonkeyroot · Dec 20, 2016

Vader is highly enough placed to give a field promotion to admiral and make it stick. Don't think his lack milliatry rank means much to him or anyone else.

Royal · Dec 20, 2016

I think of all those potential ideas the one you're most likely to get is your bounty hunter movie. The Boba Fett movie made it all the way to the point of having a teaser trailer made for it that was never shown because they kicked Josh Trank from the director's chair to the curb at the eleventh hour. But Simon Kinberg, who was supposed to write and produce it, is still on board for making it happen.

Personally, if they're going to go in the bounty hunter direction I wish they'd go with Cad Bane. It might be sacrilege but I find him more interesting as a character than Fett and they don't have to come up with some wishy-washy angle as to why he doesn't look like a clone of Jango Fett. Unfortunately he's not human and I just don't see them making a movie with a CGI central character not named Ahsoka at this point (and it's a strong strike against them ever making that movie either I think).

But as for him fitting the theme of a space western ...

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Star Wars : Rogue One

Royal

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Zweischneid

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