Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

Breakdown

Gunnar Durden
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i'm sure after 30 years and giving himself the title of Master, he can do this
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So a few days in a swamp is the same as two decades in salt water?

The issue isn’t lifting it. It’s that it’s rusted shit that’s 40 years old already
 

Royal

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yea, and that del guy was there, they were working in tandem, del blows up the cache and lets luke take the compass

I didn't think to tag that. Sorry if I spoiled anything for ya there.
 

Lithose

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I agree and to it I would add that the movie went for a different sort of message than many critics probably expected from it. It's not hard to imagine someone who watches movies for a living having an affinity for the genuinely unexpected, particular where blockbusters are concerned. The central message of gleaning what you can from failure to fight a better fight another day probably made it more appealing to critics in general just by being there. But that sort of message isn't going to have the same sort of broad attraction with general audiences and certainly not with many lifelong Star Wars fans when it engulfs one of the original heroes of the franchise.

See, the thing is--I like movies that subvert expectations too. Bad guys winning is a particular favorite of mine. The problem is it needs to be done well and from an organic stand point with the characters. Luke, the most hopeful of all the characters in the original film, becoming cynical because that hope was used against him in a terrible way? Fantastic story right there. Simply saying "and that happened"--awful story telling. Bad, bad story telling. But there is clearly a good movie in there.

In fact, I suspect if you didn't have established characters this would be a good movie. Think of how it would change. The gumpy master wouldn't have been the literal symbol of hope and so him being a cynical bitch would have been refreshing, almost just like how Yoda was a goofy asshole for a while. Snoke getting offed through a small trick after showing immense power? It's fine now because we don't give a fuck where that guy was through the other 8 films that someone of his power should have been known--kind of like the Emperor. Rey being ridiculously powerful and knowing shit without practicing? It's fine because we don't know how this shit works and can assume the force teaches people, and Rey is "the one". Finn having a ridiculous side story that does nothing? Finn wouldn't be in this because Rian Johnson wouldn't have to include a useless element contractually to satisfy the broader story.

The only flaws you'd be left with really are the mildly cringey girl power shit, and the vice admiral being a retard that everyone seems to be mass delusional about being a good commander. But those are minor flaws. Nearly every major flaw the fans had with this film came from it being shoe-horned into a larger story when its pretty clear Johnson's desire was to subvert expectations like Empire Strikes Back did in its day. But that doesn't work with this film, because two big things are different. 1.) Many characters have multiple films of established motivations and back story. The universe is also a known quantity, with the audience expecting to know bigger players. In Empire both these things aren't true, and so adding in "bigger bad" guy is fine, and so is having characters show more of themselves. 2.) There is zero time between film 1 and 2. Zero time. In Empire Strikes back there are multiple indications the Rebel Alliance and our main characters have seen some shit since we last saw them, and stuck together. Small differences, or skills learned can be attributed to that. (A major thing would still feel jarring, but any growth along a previously established path feels fine.)


Rian Johnson's problem is he made a decent movie (Minus Finn's useless story and aforementioned cringe ideological stuff) for the sequel to TFA. If all we knew about this universe was TFA, then almost all of Johnson's subversion's work. But in a universe with 8 films, this story was told really, really poorly.
 
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Jive Turkey

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2.) There is zero time between film 1 and 2. Zero time.

Someone mentioned this several pages ago. The entire new trilogy has so far taken up less than a week in real time? That's a massive problem from a story telling perspective when we're meant to believe the character development and relationships. I found it a bit jarring in the elevator scene with Kylo when Rey is speaking to him about the force with all the confidence of Luke at the beginning of ROTJ
 
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Melvin

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So a few days in a swamp is the same as two decades in salt water?

The issue isn’t lifting it. It’s that it’s rusted shit that’s 40 years old already

Pfft, whatever. Rey can fix that with her bare hands.
 
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Royal

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See, the thing is--I like movies that subvert expectations too. Bad guys winning is a particular favorite of mine.

I'm not saying the subversion of expectations has limited popular appeal as a storytelling device but more about using an unanticipated theme resulting in critics giving the movie credit more readily than a general audience would minus seeing the payoffs to all of that failure it drove the heroes into. And the payoff they do see involves the death of a popular character.

I think it's probably getting some critical benefit by being weighed as a middle chapter whose payoffs can be delivered later and a general audience may be less likely to grant it that. Interestingly the Canto Bight/Finn and Rose storyline is something I also see critics pointing out as weak or among the movie's flaws. I think part of that is it's really hard to see how the central lesson applies to it. There really doesn't appear to be much for those characters to assess in themselves and grow from in that experience.

The problem is it needs to be done well and from an organic stand point with the characters. Luke, the most hopeful of all the characters in the original film, becoming cynical because that hope was used against him in a terrible way? Fantastic story right there. Simply saying "and that happened"--awful story telling. Bad, bad story telling. But there is clearly a good movie in there.

One impression I came away from it with is it almost seems as if it should be the second movie in a 4 part story instead of a trilogy because it seems like there is so much ground to cover now. That would have also let them explore the changes to Luke more and flesh out Kylo's turn better.
 

MusicForFish

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Just got in from this...free tickets are awesome, except when you waste it on this movie.
I just don't understand what made the idiots in charge think this was, in any way, the right direction to take this in.
Such a craptastic way to kill an IP.
Fuck Disney.
Fuck the new Canon.
Fuck SJW's.
It's like they purposefully shit in all our faces.


Hopefully they do a Trump edit with only action scenes.
 
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Origin

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I love Star Wars. I haven't watched this yet. Not sure i want to. Maybe for science? I don't know.

I was so disappointed with R1 (goes without saying anything about how terrible TFA was), that i've had this feeling about wanting to preserve at least some semblance of how awesome Star Wars used to be.
 
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jayrebb

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Disney needs to trash can TLJ and do a mulligan with Hamill helping write a new script.

Hamill was just too young and in too good of shape for the way he was used in this NT. These characters and storylines we got (TLJ specifically) are something I'd expect in a stand-alone flick or a television show based around the TFA characters after the NT is completed-- 10-15 years from now when creative is burned out.

And I think that's square one as far as where people got turned off by the treatment. The keys to an actual Star Wars trademarked NT would have been pair Kasdan with anyone else besides JJ (WELL OK save for Rian Johnson and anyone under the height of 5'5), let Lucas consult like his fucking Disney contract says-- and listen to Mark Hamill.

Rian went for prequel style jokes (with a Guardians of the Galaxy facelift) and it didn't work. Say what you want, but Grievous was a fun bad guy and Lucas gave us spine-tingling bad guys who could crack jokes inadvertently. Also the Trade Federation guys were bumbling idiot cucks just like Hux, yet they were interesting. You felt they weren't caricatures, rather they were characters. What exactly is Hux supposed to be? Not compelling. Not enticing. Not funny.

Compare Viceroy & Grievous to Hux and Phasma. Some of you need to go "retcon" your opinions of the Prequels.
 
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Lanx

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I love Star Wars. I haven't watched this yet. Not sure i want to. Maybe for science? I don't know.

I was so disappointed with R1 (goes without saying anything about how terrible TFA was), that i've had this feeling about wanting to preserve at least some semblance of how awesome Star Wars used to be.
Lol, you love sw, but haven't watched this shit fest garbage?

Yet you were disappointed w/ r1?

Dindu please, even astronauts get to watch star wars in space, you're just a pretend a fan.
 

Origin

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Lol, you love sw, but haven't watched this shit fest garbage?

Yet you were disappointed w/ r1?

Dindu please, even astronauts get to watch star wars in space, you're just a pretend a fan.

I'm saying that i'm not sure i want to ruin the shit anymore than it has been, you fucking Faulty Armor.

If i stop being a fan, in your chink eyes, fuck my life then.
 

kegkilla

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Lol, you love sw, but haven't watched this shit fest garbage?

Yet you were disappointed w/ r1?

Dindu please, even astronauts get to watch star wars in space, you're just a pretend a fan.
He's fine, the Disney shit isn't really Star Wars.
 
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zignor 4

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I rewatched Rogue One recently and really enjoyed it. It's not without its flaws, and it's frustrating just how much better it could have been with a few relatively moderate tweaks, but as a "side" Star Wars story it's still pretty great. I definitely prefer it to 7 and 8.
 
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kegkilla

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Disney needs to trash can TLJ and do a mulligan with Hamill helping write a new script.
I love watching Hamill take a shit on Disney but I wouldnt trust him to write that shit, he seems borderline unstable and too obsessed with his own character. Lucas should have wrote these and someone who is not riddled with white guilt directed. Lucas would have wrote it with the intention of giving a proper close to the Star Wars saga. The Disney shit is clearly intended to leverage the old material into as many new revenue streams as possible.

216mqw.jpg
 
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Lanx

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I'm saying that i'm not sure i want to ruin the shit anymore than it has been, you fucking Faulty Armor.

If i stop being a fan, in your chink eyes, fuck my life then.
lol pretenda fan is in denial, just cuz you have a BB8 onesie don't make you no fan.
I love watching Hamill take a shit on Disney but I wouldnt trust him to write that shit, he seems borderline unstable and too obsessed with his own character. Lucas should have wrote these and someone who is not riddled with white guilt directed. Lucas would have wrote it with the intention of giving a proper close to the Star Wars saga. The Disney shit is clearly intended to leverage the old material into as many new revenue streams as possible.

216mqw.jpg

Hamil has already reneg'd all the shit talking he did on Rian cuz Disney told him too like a good boy.
 
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