Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

Merrith · Dec 15, 2017

Khalan said:
The inability of fans and haters to show any amount of nuance and have any discussion when these movies come out is what makes these discussions so pointless. It's either THE BEST EVER and fuck you if you hate it, or it's THE WORST MOVIE GARBAGE FUCK DISNEY.

Like is it possible to have a normal discussion about good and bad parts or does everyone need to act like they have touretes?

Most people panning it have noted there are good parts in it. Some of the themes are handled well. The overdone humor throughout and plot holes a mile wide leave a sour taste too.

ohkcrlho · Dec 15, 2017

Lithose said:
Star Wars: M Night Shyamalan

Twists in the story that don't make sense for the characters, and feel like they were done simply because these guys read a bunch of fan forums and wanted to be able to say they did everything different. Which would have been fine--but now all the shit I didn't like about the first film have exploded into a mess of cancer.

Luke: Dude forgave his father and tried to foster the glimmer of light side in him AFTER his father killed Luke's mentor, Obi Wan, committed genocide on a planetary scale that was so horrific it sent ripples through the force thanks to billions dying, attempted to kill Luke himself, was actively killing Luke's friends and sister, and murdered Luke's adopted parents (The only family he ever knew.).....But Luke forgave all of that and saw the good in his father, and was willing to risk his own life and the fate of the rebellion, and then lives of all of his friends by throwing away his light saber and COUNTING on the good in his father, the sliver of good that not even the Emperor, a far more experienced force user, could sense because it had been buried for so long under horrible atrocities and pain.

But the dude senses some dark side growing in a fucking child, the child of his best friend and sister, and tries to snuff him in the night? What the fuck? A twist just to have a twist, a twist that went against everything the character was and stood for. Literally just someone saying "well, everyone expects Ben Solo to have fallen to the dark side like Vader...What if we had Luke PUSH him to the dark side! DUN DUN DUN! No one will expect that!" (Without questioning the reason why no one would expect that).

Rey: So Rey's ability to speak all languages, fly a space ship she's never sat in, use the force well with zero training ect...All of that is just part of her, and came from no where. She had no lineage, or past that explains this. She's just a nobody that has ended up being super powerful, and knowledgeable. It's not that I have an issue with a nobody becoming super powerful, in fact I'd find that fucking refreshing...I love the idea of someone coming from nowhere, without some great sense of purpose or "destiny", and rising up--it's a story that is not done enough. I like the little guy literally becoming the hero.

However, in order for that story to work well, a character has to start weak, and have flaws which their time on their "hero's journey" iron out, and change. Rey starts off a super hero, which really changes the story from a "Hero's journey" to gain some new qualities for her, into a story about discovery (Why am I like this). Except this movie was just like "nope, still Hero's journey, except we're starting at the destination!". It doesn't work, at all. It's dog shit. This character feels like bad fan fiction, a literal Mary Sue, except no "comes from royalty and is a princess" background in order to toss a twist in there.

Leia: lol....

Kylo: Potentially the only interesting character left that isn't totally idiotic...except for the fact that he is idiotic, literally. Why fight Rey? Why not just fucking talk to each other. Ugh.

It's too bad, because the underlying themes about how human perception is coloring the "force" with light/dark, and the force is simply something that exists, and how religion/ideology can pervert things and has caused all this damage? Could have been a great theme. I mean, it radically departs from the simplistic fantasy serial themes of the original, with dark knights and paladins ect--with very clear good vs bad guys. But I get the desire to want more complexity, and I think that's fine. In fact, despite the shit above, I enjoyed this aspect. I liked Rey's insights into how she sees the force changing how it is. Realizing she is a part of it, rather than it being part of her, and thus the implications that individuals bring both light and dark to things, and all the old Jedi crap was just simplistic teachings of people who were fumbling for meaning...I get it.

But that was covered by the gigantic mess they made of character and motivation. This was such a sloppy conversion from a simplistic fantasy, into a more complex drama (Or at least the back ground needed for it--by peeling away the concept of the force pushing light and dark to allow for characters to be responsible.)...And that's what I'd have to say about this, sloppy and unsatisfying. They took a sledge hammer to reforge the themes in the movie and didn't care of they smashed the reasoning and internal logic of nearly every character that might have gotten in their way. Like most movies that miss the mark--the reason it does is because the character motivations are in service to the story, rather than the story being a byproduct of the character motivations. It genuinely felt like some producer had a bunch of scenes and themes he wants, and to hell with how they got there.

This is going to be a movie I think that gets worse with time as people digest it. Right now, I can see a lot of people loving it because the themes behind the story are "empowering" and it genuinely shakes up the lore of the universe in ways that feel very new and exciting. It's also beautiful, if you pulled out the story, the movie is just gorgeous visually--if you don't think about it, its one of those movies that's just enjoyable to watch. But much like the prequels, its going to be one of those movies where as you think about the twists, and the "why"--it will slowly start to turn sour, I think. I could be wrong and it could get better with time, but I for sure thing this is going to go the other way for most people.

Spot on. Everything about the major characters and themes is explained here.

Muligan · Dec 15, 2017

zignor 4 said:
I almost don't want to watch this now, and not just because of the negative reactions. The titanic shift from seemingly endless glowing reviews to seemingly endless terrible ones is just fascinating to witness. It has to be a first for a movie like this.

Even among two buddies of mine who are both lifelong Star Wars fans and who essentially share the same opinions of each of the prior films came away with completely different reactions.

Go watch it. It's a decent movie. There's 2-3 parts that will make you scratch your head but the rest is a good ride. Just understand that the resolve that you're looking for coming out of TFA, you're not getting it. It's definitely a different direction and i'm not happy about it and keep coming back to the "what if" they made it just like we thought they should but they would have taken equal criticism for following the pattern of the OTs. So ultimately, its disjointed and they made a few bonehead decisions but there was one or two parts alone that made me feel it was all worth it. I've yet to talk to any in person that didn't give it a pretty positive review but i've yet to run into someone that didn't have the same complaint. Either those moments completely taint the entire experience or they are dismissed and you move on.

DickTrickle · Dec 15, 2017

Khalan said:
The inability of fans and haters to show any amount of nuance and have any discussion when these movies come out is what makes these discussions so pointless. It's either THE BEST EVER and fuck you if you hate it, or it's THE WORST MOVIE GARBAGE FUCK DISNEY.

Like is it possible to have a normal discussion about good and bad parts or does everyone need to act like they have touretes?

And there you are being just as full of hyperbole...

Multiple people have expressed sentiments that are in the average or mediocre range here. They're not all extreme. You're just paying more attention to the extremes.

Jive Turkey · Dec 15, 2017

Oblio said:
In theory I have no issue with Leia tapping into her Force Sensitivity to save her self form that situation or escaping death in some other way, it was the execution of the scene on the whole. It just read so cheesy and so forced that I literally cringed and had to hold in a moan as to be respectful to the other movie goers. Please believe me, I wish I liked this movie more, I am honestly jealous that I am unable to see the movie the way you do. I am a huge fanboi, but I almost feel betrayed. TFA was such a palette cleanser in comparison to the prequels, it literally gave me "A New Hope" that Star Wars was back. I walked out of the Theater last night with that same feeling I had walking out of the Prequels, I really wanted to like I just feel like they dropped the ball in so many ways. If it were just a few "moments" I would be much more forgiving, but it was nearly every scene. I am just sad man.

Here is my gut reaction when I got home last night

And with that, I am going to stop posting in this thread (unless asked a direct question). I hate it when other people come to threads and just repeat their dislike for something over and over, I do not want to be that guy and I really do hope others enjoy it.

Just a quick thought regarding the bombers and gravity:

if there is gravity on the bombers themselves, but no gravity once the threshold is crossed into space, the inertia from the bombs falling inside the ship would carry them toward the target as if they were falling (although at a constant rate of speed instead of accelerating)

a_skeleton_03 · Dec 15, 2017

I just saw it a second time and I think I might legit hate it.

I did not dislike TFA or Rogue One.

Xarpolis · Dec 15, 2017

I just got home from seeing it, and honestly... I was pleased. I'm not a huge Star Wars type of person. I've seen each movie once... maybe twice in my life. But this was entertaining.

Oblio · Dec 15, 2017

Jive Turkey said:
Just a quick thought regarding the bombers and gravity:

if there is gravity on the bombers themselves, but no gravity once the threshold is crossed into space, the inertia from the bombs falling inside the ship would carry them toward the target as if they were falling (although at a constant rate of speed instead of accelerating)

I think I can accept your theory. Thank you for taking some of the sting out of this whole experience. The question is, if asked do you think the writer/director would immediately have the same answer?

Jive Turkey · Dec 15, 2017

Oblio said:
I think I can accept your theory. Thank you for taking some of the sting out of this whole experience. The question is, if asked do you think the writer/director would immediately have the same answer?

Ha, I'm guessing they probably didn't even consider it.

I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about the movie. I just saw it about 4 hours ago. I really wanted to like it. And there are definitely parts that I liked. But there was a lot I didn't like. I thought Rose was a shitty character. I hated the casino planet; it felt either super prequel-y or even Harry Potter-y or something. But not like Star Wars.
And there was too much awkward expositiony dialogue. And much of the dialogue felt unpolished. Off the top of my head:

When Chewie busts through Luke's door, Luke just says "Chewie, what are you doing here?". That feels like what you might put in as a stand-in line while sketching out the scene. There seemed to be a lot of that

Jive Turkey · Dec 15, 2017

Koushirou said:
Ackbar getting BTFO after seeing him I think once with one line or so of dialog. Shit I didn’t even know it was him until it was casually mentioned he was gone a few minutes later. Instead of having purple hair take over, Ackbar could have filled that whole role and given him a better send off for an old fan character.

Fuck, this would've been awesome and now I'm mad they didn't do it that way

Sludig · Dec 15, 2017

Not reading thread till i see it, but this seems to cover what I imagine it will be like aha.... Fuck you Lucas.

khorum · Dec 15, 2017

Fucking loved it. 9/10.

Khalan · Dec 15, 2017

one other part I thought was really poorly done

Ok so they come out of hyperspace, and the first thing they say is they need to find a place that they can re-settle with enough power to send out a signal to get help from their allies. No mention of crait or anything, but then all of a sudden they are close enough to crait at sublight speeds to get there in a few days (or however long Rey was gone)???

It was just a coincidence they came out of hyperspace within sublight distances of a former rebel base with a huge shield but don't even mention it when they literally say they are looking something exactly like that?

khorum · Dec 15, 2017

Khalan said:
one other part I thought was really poorly done

Ok so they come out of hyperspace, and the first thing they say is they need to find a place that they can re-settle with enough power to send out a signal to get help from their allies. No mention of crait or anything, but then all of a sudden they are close enough to crait at sublight speeds to get there in a few days (or however long Rey was gone)???

It was just a coincidence they came out of hyperspace within sublight distances of a former rebel base with a huge shield but don't even mention it when they literally say they are looking something exactly like that?

Sublight could mean anything from walking speed to .999c. Let's say you're travelling at .5c--half the speed of light--you'd still be clearing an AU in 16 mins. After 18 hours at .5c you'd travel 68 AU's... roughly the same distance as from our sun to the heliopause at the edge of jovian space, where the sun is as faint as some of the brighter stars. So yeah, it's pretty fair to say you could miss some big objects at your arrival.

Muligan · Dec 15, 2017

khorum said:
Fucking loved it. 9/10.

I don't think we've ever had a movie on this board be so far spread on the spectrum. Nice to see a positive comment though

khorum · Dec 15, 2017

I don't know how anyone could HATE it and still love A New Hope... I mean, you had a farmer swinging across metal chasms with his sexy sister in THAT movie and everyone loved it.

Khalan · Dec 15, 2017

khorum said:
Sublight could mean anything from walking speed to .999c. Let's say you're travelling at .5c--half the speed of light--you'd still be clearing an AU in 16 mins. After 18 hours at .5c you'd travel 68 AU's... roughly the same distance as from our sun to the heliopause at the edge of jovian space, where the sun is as faint as some of the brighter stars. So yeah, it's pretty fair to say you could miss some big objects at your arrival.

Ok so in the giant galaxy they just coincidentally landed just within fuel distance of a planet that had everything they needed? Just seems like they could have written it a little less contrived.

When the closest star to us is 4-5 Light YEARS, it seems insane they would land only 18 hours from the perfect planet in the entire galaxy.

khorum · Dec 15, 2017

Khalan said:
Ok so in the giant galaxy they just coincidentally landed just within fuel distance of a planet that had everything they needed? Just seems like they could have written it a little less contrived.

Why is it contrived? They were evacuating under fire and had to jump somewhere that would have resources for them to repair/replenish supplies... Did they have reason to believe that destination would be unsafe?

They spent plenty of time explaining how it was extremely unlikely that they'd run into that predicament by jumping to where they were jumping.

Pharazon2 · Dec 15, 2017

I had been avoiding this thread and anything that might give spoilers for the past few weeks. Anytime internet ads even came up i turned them off immediately. Wanted to go in with relatively little expectations and just enjoy the movie for what is was. Watched quite a bit of the old movies last weekend when TNT showed them all, watched TFA again last night to get ready for a company viewing at 9 am this morning!..

What a colossal fucking letdown. I'm one of those that actually liked The Force Awakens. It had some flaws but it made me want to know what happens next. Rey standing there holding out the light saber to Luke was a literal cliffhanger that had me looking forward to this movie for two fucking years. Who is Rey? Who is Snoke? And what the fuck has Luke been doing on that island for 20-30 years? Those were 3 questions they set up that had endlessly interesting scenarios you could imagine. And they fucked it all up. I'll spoiler my shit, but frankly there's nothing to spoil here. The movie spoils everything itself.

4/10 I'll probably watch it again when family wants to see it, but at this point I feel like Disney has killed Star Wars.

'
-First and foremost, they ruined a childhood hero, Luke Skywalker. It's already been said many times in others spoilers here, but it can't be said too many times. It made no sense that he was able to see the good in his father after all the terrible things he has done and was able to sort of reach him for redemption, but his nephew who had never committed such atrocities was a lost cause and he was considering killing him in his sleep? Who the fuck thought this garbage up?

-So Luke after considering the murder of his nephew and being caught thinking that doesn't think he needs to try to make amends, or on the other end of the spectrum doesn't feel he was so right about Ben Solo being evil that he should seek him out to try to end him, he just runs away and hides. A jedi master would not be afraid of the worst case for what the boy does with that power, they would do their best to help the boy avoid the dark side. In fact Luke was never afraid of shit in the original movies.

-Luke never sought to understand who Snoke is, never considered going to the source? Just like "Eh, there's always going to be a balance of good and bad, what's the fucking point!" He's a complete bitch in this movie, biggest letdown of it.

-At the end of Return of the Jedi we see Anakin, Yoda, Obi-wan all together. You're telling me all this time the past 20-30 years they never gave Luke advice? Like "hey Ben I'm having troubles with training my nephew, what can I do?" Which one of them answered "Kill him in his sleep." ? It seems like they never talked to him until the moment we see Yoda here, and that exchange was itself a letdown.

-Rey has all those fucking powers with no training and turns out she was a nobody? Fuck you. Should have been Anakin's clone, that would have at least made sense.

-Snoke dying before we had any explanation of who the fuck he was is retarded and took away from the impact of his death. The fact that we didn't get a light saber / force battle between Luke and Snoke is a travesty. The one thing the prequels fucking did right was create epic saber duels. Qui-gon/Obi-wan vs. Maul, Dooku vs. Anakin / Obi-wan parts 1 and 2, Windu vs. Siddious, Yoda vs. Siddious, Anakin vs. Obi-wan. This movie had Snoke getting killed by a saber without a dual because he's not as all-knowing as he thought, Rey and Ren temporarily joining forces to fight some stupid guards (yawn, who came up with the idea for them to kill Snoke before the guards?), followed by Ren and Rey doing some Harry Potter-like force tug shit which symbolically ends in Anakin / Luke's saber getting blown to pieces (because this movie takes all the good of the originals and blows it to pieces).

-The space chase felt like a bad episode of Battlestar Galactica. Its a joke that that was the central plot element of a Star Wars movie.

-If all it takes to annihilate Snoke's ship is saccing a ship with a hyperdrive why the fuck didn't they just do that in the first place? Why isn't that the main attack element of all these battles? I mean it looked cool but Fucking lol Why didn't they just do that with both Death Star's too right?

-The bombers in space! Fuckin lol again

-Benicio Del Toro's character was worthless. Phasma's character was worthless too, two movies and she added absolutely nothing.

-When Luke walked out at the end there's was this moment where it looked like the movie might be saved by him doing some completely bad ass shit. I mean at least give me a great moment. But it turns out his ass was too lazy to even bother going out there to save his sister and the good guys. He put an image of himself there because he somehow knew his friends would need help to escape or some shit. Only sacrificed himself once pretty much the entire rebel force had been destroyed but at least now he's at peace or some shit? Not sure how they're trying to sell us that as a peaceful death since the little brat he unleashed on the galaxy is still running free, now in command of it all. I think it's safe to say that from the moment he considered killing Ben Solo until his own death, Ben was about as bad as Luke imagined he might be. And Luke was alive how many years and did nothing about it? He was potentially willing to kill him in his sleep, but he's rather go hide on an island than try to conquer the evil head on.

George Lucas rolling over in his piles of money at the sight of this shit. This movie was worse than the prequels.

In summation, fuck Disney, fuck Rian Johnson for destroying a character we all used to love, and fuck Disney again for thinking Rian Johnson did such a great job with this that they wanted to sign him on for three more.

Feanor · Dec 15, 2017

Sludig said:
Not reading thread till i see it, but this seems to cover what I imagine it will be like aha.... Fuck you Lucas.

MAN FUCK THIS SHIT MARK WAS RIGHT STAR WARS CAN SUCK A DICK

Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

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