The D&D thread
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Pancreas
Vyemm Raider
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For me personally, unless you are going to need it for a fight, maps aren't worth it and almost always destroy creativity.
Everyone focuses on the token and map and stops thinking about the scene in a three dimensional space.
And as far as LoS blocking maps with real time lighting; at that point the map is trying to emulate video games that do all of the graphical immersion stuff way better.
Theater of the mind for role playing and a basic grid with tokens when range is important is what my group has settled on and it chops prep time to a fraction.
It's way more flexible and allows for some really interesting sessions where player creativity is much easier to handle and reward.
That being said, if you are going to use a map get one with lots of little details to help inspire actions that tie characters to the environment.
Everyone focuses on the token and map and stops thinking about the scene in a three dimensional space.
And as far as LoS blocking maps with real time lighting; at that point the map is trying to emulate video games that do all of the graphical immersion stuff way better.
Theater of the mind for role playing and a basic grid with tokens when range is important is what my group has settled on and it chops prep time to a fraction.
It's way more flexible and allows for some really interesting sessions where player creativity is much easier to handle and reward.
That being said, if you are going to use a map get one with lots of little details to help inspire actions that tie characters to the environment.
Grabbit Allworth
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Super valuable site, but it's not even a fraction of a fraction of what The Trove is/was.
To answer the question -- No, there's no replacement, but the Trove 'staff' say they're still working to get back up and running. There's a lot of rumors swirling about what happened, but I wouldn't put in stock in to any of them. If you need something specific, they'll fill requests if you contact them. There's also a number of sub-Reddits and Discord channels that have popped up with a ton of sharing going on while we all wait for the Trove to come back up.
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j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Concerning maps... It just comes down to what your table considers fun. At our table, the dm makes his own maps (he does commission work on one of the reddit pages as well) because we all enjoy that part of the game. But guys like matt colville give great reasons to not use maps.
if using a map is fun for the group, then use maps. If the group has more fun not using maps, then don't. I think a lot of players get caught up in certain details or aspects of the game and lose the forest for the trees.
i mean obviously plenty of things are worth exploring ways of doing differently, but remember at the end of the day this is just about having a good time with your friends.
if using a map is fun for the group, then use maps. If the group has more fun not using maps, then don't. I think a lot of players get caught up in certain details or aspects of the game and lose the forest for the trees.
i mean obviously plenty of things are worth exploring ways of doing differently, but remember at the end of the day this is just about having a good time with your friends.
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Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
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Yep.
I'm huge into tactical combat games, so I really dislike not having a grid map for any combat encounter. Then at that point, the more detail the better, so walls/cover/etc an be accurately depicted.
I'm huge into tactical combat games, so I really dislike not having a grid map for any combat encounter. Then at that point, the more detail the better, so walls/cover/etc an be accurately depicted.
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Qhue
Tranny Chaser
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I find a nice map helps set the mood, especially with the lighting / sound / misc background details. This past session the background art on a map featured a cot and so they got the idea to stow the rescue target underneath it while they dealt with a wandering guard.
Some people just don't do well with theater-of-the-mind. For them it's like a Zork adventure where the only things they can interact with are those which have keynames. Even if they are in a pub that has been richly described they won't think they can grab a mug and hit someone with it because the description didn't specifically mention that a mug was on the table. For those sorts the map helps fill in imagination gaps.
Some people just don't do well with theater-of-the-mind. For them it's like a Zork adventure where the only things they can interact with are those which have keynames. Even if they are in a pub that has been richly described they won't think they can grab a mug and hit someone with it because the description didn't specifically mention that a mug was on the table. For those sorts the map helps fill in imagination gaps.
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Yeah, in the early days of DnD, Shadowrun, etc, not too many people used grid maps, we just kind of described the situation and everybody used their imagination.
It wasn't terrible, mostly because we didn't have a basis for comparison to something better. But we definitely spent a lot of time resolving misunderstandings about character positioning and the environment: i.e. "Wait, I thought the bad guys were behind the wall, that's why I said I moved into the trees..."
Dungeons could be tough too, mainly because the PCs had a hard time keeping track of where they were, where they had already been, and what was still unexplored. As a GM I definitely encouraged my players to make their own maps but that took a lot of time and they frequently got shit wrong just drawing based on my descriptions.
Again, it wasn't awful, but once we tried grid maps and figs we realized we could spend all that time we were wasting trying to resolve misunderstandings and drawing maps on the fly doing things like role-playing and combat instead. And those things are way more fun.
Then we went through our phase of huge whiteboards, giant grid maps, and tackle boxes full of figs. It was a step up from before but as a GM i was spending a ton of prep time pre-drawing maps by hand and painstakingly planning fig placement. And then there was the issue of breaking combat up over multiple sessions. You'd end up pissing off your wife or girlfriend by leaving a huge grid map covered with figs on your kitchen table for a week.
For me and pretty much everybody I have gamed with over the years, the advantages of digital battle maps have been a godsend in terms of the time they save us, the clarity they bring, and the tactical advantages they offer. That's not to say anything of how much easier tokens and other tracking devices have made my job as a GM.
But like others in this thread have said, to each their own. Personally, I love the advantages technology has brought to gaming over the years, but then I'm someone who would run my players through a fucking TNG holodeck if I could.
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j00t
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I'll say this, a lot of what can make or break a theatre of the mind encounter is the communication skill of players. That's not necessarily a slight on anyone... People are generally awful at effective communication. That's how you get players drawing the wrong maps or the constant "wait WHERE are the goblins?? I thought you said they were _____."
On top of that, it's incredibly hard to have perfect focus for a normal 4 hour game. Sometimes you just zone out for a few seconds and miss a crucial detail about placement. Maps can help avoid that because you don't have to remember exact details of where everyone is, you just look at the map and the tokens.
On top of that, it's incredibly hard to have perfect focus for a normal 4 hour game. Sometimes you just zone out for a few seconds and miss a crucial detail about placement. Maps can help avoid that because you don't have to remember exact details of where everyone is, you just look at the map and the tokens.
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Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Not to mention side conversations distracting people, people getting up to get a drink or food or use the bathroom. Maps just keep everybody on the same page.
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Qhue
Tranny Chaser
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I game with 4 gentlemen who are all fathers of infants / pre-schoolers. Our games nominally start at 7:30 but never really get going until after 8 because at least one of them has trouble with dinnertime / getting the kid to bed. The distractions are very real. Were it not for the convenience of the VTT record I'd end up in a deja vu psychosis from having to repeat myself so many times.
Grabbit Allworth
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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For me, the thought of running combat without a map sounds terrible. Even in the late 80s when I started playing, we'd draw out the area on graph paper or on a dry erase board. I've never played in or run a game without maps, but I do see the possible benefits of using theater of the mind. With it, there's a lot of room for DMs to embellish and use more rule-of-cool, whereas grid-maps present nearly everything in definitive terms.
As a DM, one of major things that I don't like about maps is that players will often feel obligated to stay within the confines of the map, but I'm perfectly ok with them moving off the map if they need the extra room. Granted, such situations are usually not a problem because the characters typically need to be in range for melee/spells/whatever, but it does occasionally come up and players will usually just run to the edge of the map and stay there like there's an imaginary wall lol.
Little funny side note -- Last night, I ran my 5e session on Fantasy Grounds and the party decided to camp under a bridge after getting ambushed there. They had a detailed map, but even after me explaining their geographical orientation to them 3 or 4 times, they still couldn't get it right so I just threw my hands up and was like "Yep, sure, yep..that's right."
As a DM, one of major things that I don't like about maps is that players will often feel obligated to stay within the confines of the map, but I'm perfectly ok with them moving off the map if they need the extra room. Granted, such situations are usually not a problem because the characters typically need to be in range for melee/spells/whatever, but it does occasionally come up and players will usually just run to the edge of the map and stay there like there's an imaginary wall lol.
Little funny side note -- Last night, I ran my 5e session on Fantasy Grounds and the party decided to camp under a bridge after getting ambushed there. They had a detailed map, but even after me explaining their geographical orientation to them 3 or 4 times, they still couldn't get it right so I just threw my hands up and was like "Yep, sure, yep..that's right."
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Seananigans
Honorary Shit-PhD
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I swear one of those guys fundamentally has west and east reversed in his head.
Grabbit Allworth
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Grabbit Allworth
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,698
- 7,320
Something interesting about mapping on VTTs is the recent implementation of lighting/line of sight and how punishing those features are going to be until players adapt.
I know for a fact that, in many cases, lighting in dark areas and LoS gets hand waved, forgotten, or have their impact minimized. However, now that there's an easy way to account for it, players are finding out that shit gets A LOT harder when you're in the dark and can't see shit. Not to mention, no longer having the luxury of the video-gamey top-down view of an entire battlefield giving them perfect information.
As I said in a couple posts up, last night my 5e group got ambushed as they crossed a river-bridge. They were perplexed (maybe even skeptical?) that they were unable to see their ambushers in the treeline. Perplexed, despite the fact that it was at night, the forest was exceptionally dense (not new information for them) and they had ONE torch lit that didn't quite have enough range to illuminate the treeline. They could see a bit of movement, but couldn't identify any targets from their position on the bridge (kinda the point of an ambush, right?). Well-excecuted ambushes are extraordinarily deadly, but I cut them a few breaks because we had just added two new players to the group and we've still got one struggling with the platform and having a few issues grasping the tactical consequences of his choices. It's only fair to give them some time to figure each other out.
I know the way the ambush played out irritated them, but it is what it is. I mean, go stand in the middle of a dense forest with a thick canopy where very little moonlight (if there is any) penetrates, light a torch, and tell me what you can see....Pro-tip: You won't be able to see much at all. Torches aren't high powered flashlights, not that it would make much difference if they were because of the dense vegetation.
That said, D&D is a game and the point is to have fun so the rules don't exactly reflect reality and I'm glad they don't, but darkness and obstacles that interfere with sight are a real problem. The only difference is that now we're able to keep track of those obstacles effectively.
Oh, and I forgot to mention -- 4 of the 5 party members are Humans (Feats =P) so they're inherently blind as shit in the dark.
I know for a fact that, in many cases, lighting in dark areas and LoS gets hand waved, forgotten, or have their impact minimized. However, now that there's an easy way to account for it, players are finding out that shit gets A LOT harder when you're in the dark and can't see shit. Not to mention, no longer having the luxury of the video-gamey top-down view of an entire battlefield giving them perfect information.
As I said in a couple posts up, last night my 5e group got ambushed as they crossed a river-bridge. They were perplexed (maybe even skeptical?) that they were unable to see their ambushers in the treeline. Perplexed, despite the fact that it was at night, the forest was exceptionally dense (not new information for them) and they had ONE torch lit that didn't quite have enough range to illuminate the treeline. They could see a bit of movement, but couldn't identify any targets from their position on the bridge (kinda the point of an ambush, right?). Well-excecuted ambushes are extraordinarily deadly, but I cut them a few breaks because we had just added two new players to the group and we've still got one struggling with the platform and having a few issues grasping the tactical consequences of his choices. It's only fair to give them some time to figure each other out.
I know the way the ambush played out irritated them, but it is what it is. I mean, go stand in the middle of a dense forest with a thick canopy where very little moonlight (if there is any) penetrates, light a torch, and tell me what you can see....Pro-tip: You won't be able to see much at all. Torches aren't high powered flashlights, not that it would make much difference if they were because of the dense vegetation.
That said, D&D is a game and the point is to have fun so the rules don't exactly reflect reality and I'm glad they don't, but darkness and obstacles that interfere with sight are a real problem. The only difference is that now we're able to keep track of those obstacles effectively.
Oh, and I forgot to mention -- 4 of the 5 party members are Humans (Feats =P) so they're inherently blind as shit in the dark.
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Tangent, Pathfinder 2e adventure paths have map packs with grids and the ap is totally prewritten, dm preptime ALOT less than making up your own stuff. But as long as players know its predone adventure, you trade sandbox for adventure on rails, and everyone is happy with that... I THINK it working w/ digital desktop... or will be soon. Its different enough from 5e and PF 1e that there are things to learn, but the basics are the same.
Paizo adventure paths can vary in quality, but thats where I think true gm skill comes in.
Paizo adventure paths can vary in quality, but thats where I think true gm skill comes in.
Indyocracy
Stock Pals Participant
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Yea my first 5e game on roll20 the whole party was human, a few caves and night time encounters later and I have not seen a non-darkvision race since. When the human rogue went to sneak and suddenly realized lighting a torch to see makes scouting alone dangerous the players realized how much hand waving we used to do.
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Qhue
Tranny Chaser
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Pro-tip for Foundry users who go all out on lighting / sound / special effects:
Use the compendium feature to put any unused scenes into cold storage if you aren't actively using them. This will dramatically lower the resource load on the world and will make things much better for the people who are connecting on lower end machines.
Also Dungeondraft is fucking addictive. Once you get the hang of it you will find yourself obsessively making cool looking areas that your players will never fully appreciate.
Use the compendium feature to put any unused scenes into cold storage if you aren't actively using them. This will dramatically lower the resource load on the world and will make things much better for the people who are connecting on lower end machines.
Also Dungeondraft is fucking addictive. Once you get the hang of it you will find yourself obsessively making cool looking areas that your players will never fully appreciate.
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Me and the boys have been playing our 4e chars since like 2010. Luckily I manged to pull some Dwarven forge kickstarters. Since getting it I make sure it gets used in every session. Everyone loves the shit out of that stuff.
Urlithani
Vyemm Raider
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I haven't played in 8 years since I moved from Florida to Texas. Had a couple of kids and all that jazz, but finally found a group and we are shooting to start playing once a month (I'm hoping to make it more regular, but we are playing at my house and my boys are small and will be a distraction until bedtime, so...).
I started playing when I was 12, so I have the most experience, which means I'm DM'ing. Everyone else is under 30 and the thought of DM'ing intimidates them. The girl has D&D books her father gave her so she's a veteran, 2 of the guys have only played D&D for a couple years, and the 4th has never played at all. SO MUCH FRESH VIRGIN BLOOD TO SCREW WITH MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Anyway, I overdid it, making an open world type campaign with a 50 x 43 Hex grid with 6 mile hexes. Basically the map is 77,000 square miles, or about the size of Minnesota. Now I have to make content for 2,150 hexes. Here's a couple summaries of what I've got in mind so far (I like to fill the world with strange, fantastic, and sometimes WTF stuff):
I started playing when I was 12, so I have the most experience, which means I'm DM'ing. Everyone else is under 30 and the thought of DM'ing intimidates them. The girl has D&D books her father gave her so she's a veteran, 2 of the guys have only played D&D for a couple years, and the 4th has never played at all. SO MUCH FRESH VIRGIN BLOOD TO SCREW WITH MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Anyway, I overdid it, making an open world type campaign with a 50 x 43 Hex grid with 6 mile hexes. Basically the map is 77,000 square miles, or about the size of Minnesota. Now I have to make content for 2,150 hexes. Here's a couple summaries of what I've got in mind so far (I like to fill the world with strange, fantastic, and sometimes WTF stuff):
- Orchard of Crawling Heads - A curiously manicured orchard in the middle of nowhere, with about 30 trees in several rows. Large green and tan fruits hang from the trees. Upon closer inspection, the fruits have the features of human heads. Ripe crawling heads, with tendrils that spread out from the neck for locomotion, move closer and accost the party. The first few converse, asking the party to join the collective. When they feel they have enough in number, they attack. Even if the party gets away, any head that has bitten the party will spit the blood out on the ground to “water” the trees. In about 90 days, a new crawling head will grow in the likeness and voice of that character.
- Library of Desperate Hunger - Once priests of Oghma, a tragic event robbed them of their knowledge, and they began to forget. In desperation, they forsook their god, and beseeched Shar, the Lady of Loss, to help them remember. Horrified by the blasphemy, their companions locked them in the library to decide what to do. Shar ended up not helping them how they wanted; instead, she turned them into ghouls, so they would have all the time they need to remember. Realizing the transformation, the priests were imprisoned in the library by their compatriots. They tore it apart, eternally hungry for both flesh and lore. They scratch at the doors and yell, “HELP ME REMEMBER!” “SO HUNGRY FOR WHAT WAS LOST!” if the party opens the door, they thank them profusely while tearing the characters to ribbons, screaming, “I FORGET BUT NOW I AM FREE!” “A THOUSAND BLESSINGS UPON YOU! LET ME FEED MY BELLY AND THEN FEED MY MIND!” “I WILL REWARD YOU AFTER I SATE THIS HUNGER!”
- Gates of Oblivion - A pair of rusted, creaky gates stands before a dilapidated manor. The iron fence around the manor has many rent and torn spots to walk through also. Anyone who walks through the gates must make a saving throw vs CON or contract Hopeless Fever; a disease that makes you weak and succumb to bouts of despair and hopelessness. If the manor is approached, an old lady answers the door. If anyone is infected, she notices and bids them enter. Most of the house is boarded off, but she tells them this has happened before. There is a curse on the property, and if you get sick, the cure is somewhere inside… Of course, the old lady is a worshipper of Apollyon, Horseman of Pestilence. If they find the cure, she will be waiting outside with other cultists. Rather than fight, she congratulates them for passing her lord’s test. Their strength is to be respected and they are free to leave, for she has foreseen their paths will cross once again someday...
- Fairy Ring - A small fey has had his shoes stolen. This is (somehow) a crime in fey law. He can’t testify to his own defense without dancing, and he can't dance without his shoes, so a PC must be his “dance champion”. If none of the PC's can dance, the fey judge might give them a day or two to find the shoes instead...
- Library of Desperate Hunger - Once priests of Oghma, a tragic event robbed them of their knowledge, and they began to forget. In desperation, they forsook their god, and beseeched Shar, the Lady of Loss, to help them remember. Horrified by the blasphemy, their companions locked them in the library to decide what to do. Shar ended up not helping them how they wanted; instead, she turned them into ghouls, so they would have all the time they need to remember. Realizing the transformation, the priests were imprisoned in the library by their compatriots. They tore it apart, eternally hungry for both flesh and lore. They scratch at the doors and yell, “HELP ME REMEMBER!” “SO HUNGRY FOR WHAT WAS LOST!” if the party opens the door, they thank them profusely while tearing the characters to ribbons, screaming, “I FORGET BUT NOW I AM FREE!” “A THOUSAND BLESSINGS UPON YOU! LET ME FEED MY BELLY AND THEN FEED MY MIND!” “I WILL REWARD YOU AFTER I SATE THIS HUNGER!”
- Gates of Oblivion - A pair of rusted, creaky gates stands before a dilapidated manor. The iron fence around the manor has many rent and torn spots to walk through also. Anyone who walks through the gates must make a saving throw vs CON or contract Hopeless Fever; a disease that makes you weak and succumb to bouts of despair and hopelessness. If the manor is approached, an old lady answers the door. If anyone is infected, she notices and bids them enter. Most of the house is boarded off, but she tells them this has happened before. There is a curse on the property, and if you get sick, the cure is somewhere inside… Of course, the old lady is a worshipper of Apollyon, Horseman of Pestilence. If they find the cure, she will be waiting outside with other cultists. Rather than fight, she congratulates them for passing her lord’s test. Their strength is to be respected and they are free to leave, for she has foreseen their paths will cross once again someday...
- Fairy Ring - A small fey has had his shoes stolen. This is (somehow) a crime in fey law. He can’t testify to his own defense without dancing, and he can't dance without his shoes, so a PC must be his “dance champion”. If none of the PC's can dance, the fey judge might give them a day or two to find the shoes instead...
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