The Dragon Prince

TJT said:

Yes a farmer would shoot an extremely dangerous predatory creature that wandered onto his farm. Are you serious?

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I'm talking about another person walking onto his land. This is a fantasy setting where humans arent the only intelligent life. Would you shotgun a random dude before maybe asking him why he was there?

TJT said:

The human nations are in league. They had that king's council about the whole situation.

Even if you are totally correct this town was in Katolis and thus would be part of the war. If it was not in Katolis Claudia and her brother would not have been able to take command of the militia by means of their station immediately.

Like they did.

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The human nations did not agree to war - the episode covered that.

TJT said:

If the other person was a flying, fire breathing, living weapon of mass destruction that humans have a long history of getting killed by?

Obviously.

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I mean I guess we can argue that - you'd seriously shoot a fire breathing living weapon of mass destruction with a gun? And then when it almost kills you like it did Soren you gotta make sure you don't cry foul. Because you shot first.

See what I mean?

Lithose said:

If I was a soldier in a machine gun nest and enemy soldiers came into my zone of fire, I wouldn't just think the machine gun nest was there to be prudent. The dragon isn't just anyone...its specifically part of a group that is actively fighting humans and would kill humans if humans dared wander into its lands. Please don't be disingenuous and just make it seem like its some harmless dude walking across my lawn.

Again, for a proper comparison it would be more akin being invaded and having an enemy soldier driving around your house scoping it out. You realize how war works right? Scouting is pretty valuable my man...You don't just let the enemy sit there because he's not attacking you actively. (Damn I should NOT have to explain this. This is exactly what I'm talking about where the humans aren't acting logically or naturally at ALL. Which is why characters had to constantly say, through dialogue, that the dragon had not attacked-- they were hoping to emphasize that illogical argument when a plain analysis of the Dragons' actions would indicate it was clearly being extremely aggressive...If the shoe were on the other foot and humans were circling a Dragon's den, there wouldn't even be a question of whether the dragon was justified in attacking them.).

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It was to make a point - shooting first is idiotic when the enemy massively overpowers you, war or no war.
The only crux of this storyline is that war isn't the answer, and I find it hilarious you guys jump on reason after reason to fight and shoot first versus trying to stop the war and come to terms. The whole point of this entire show is literally flying right over your head. No wonder you see SJWism in it, you can't see anything but that.

Nidhogg said:

Since Xadia declared war, they can be seen as invading. Again, no issue with them shooting the dragon. My issue was putting the town in danger. You keep forgetting that.
The town also had no militia, or anyone in command willing to fire on it (maybe they had sense and knew it was stupid to do until you evacuated the town) either way, claudia and Soren were not justified in shooting it. They should have thought of the townspeople first.

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I'm not forgetting anything. I figured you would do this because I can already see you're attempting to avoid the cognitive dissonance of your response, which is specifically why I asked you this....



To which you answered....

Nidhogg said:

I called Claudia and Soren assholes for attacking it. They were not justified in their aggression. The dragon was in the wrong in what way? There are no rules stating the Dragon cannot be there - there is no such thing as a no fly zone in this story. Xadians want humans OUT of Xadia. Humans have no reverse declaration. Dragons don't go there because why would they? They kicked them out because they thought they were or would be a danger to other magical creatures with Dark magic.
So in answering your question no, the dragon was not in the wrong. There is no double standard here because the story has not set up a scenario where both sides of the Breach are on even terms.
The humans (specifically Claudia and Soren) were not justified in attacking the dragon - but even if they thought they were (which since they are at WAR with them, they could think they were) it was stupid to risk the town.

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So beyond the risk to the town, you said here the Dragon was not wrong, and thus the attack was not justified...Not because of the risk, but because it was simply not wrong for the dragon to be there.

Please don't say I don't remember, I do. I've done this ENTIRE argument to point out the massive double standard you hold. Have you now abandoned that double standard and agree the dragon was in the wrong?

Nidhogg said:

It was to make a point - shooting first is idiotic when the enemy massively overpowers you, war or no war.
The only crux of this storyline is that war isn't the answer, and I find it hilarious you guys jump on reason after reason to fight and shoot first versus trying to stop the war and come to terms. The whole point of this entire show is literally flying right over your head. No wonder you see SJWism in it, you can't see anything but that.

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You've already contradicted yourself, as I pointed out above...Please don't try to write me of ass "only seeing SJWism" when I saw the double standard in your posts that you seem to have forgotten. I never said I agreed with the humans, I've been trying to nail down YOUR objective criteria for judging a people, because you seem to have this huge double standard and so it was important to walk you toward that double standard slowly (Because I can already see you trying to bob/weave to avoid it).

That said, I think you've forgotten the humans won. The dragon didn't overpower them. The humans knocked it out of the sky and could have easily killed it had it not been for our main characters acting completely illogically and defending the dragon as if the dragon was in the right.

Which has been the entire point of this line of reasoning...The only way this weird logic works is if you ignore long chains of reasoning and contradiction before arriving at your "answer". That's the problem with the show in a nutshell, thank you. In order to get to the "moral lesson", the humans have to act in this bizarre, alien way that ignores a LONG LIST of rational reasoning that SHOULD have seen them take DIFFERENT actions well before then. This is how you get characters that act like puppets, or vessels for an ideology, rather than real people.

That all said, it brings us back to the crux of the argument. Why did the main characters blame the humans when its clear the dragon was in the wrong for being in human territory? Why did the humans not go with your concept of "if you run with the bulls, don't complain if you get gored"---the dragon ran with the bulls and got fucked. Why don't you judge the dragon by those standards?

Lithose said:

I'm not forgetting anything. I figured you would do this because I can already see you're attempting to avoid the cognitive dissonance of your response, which is specifically why I asked you this....

You called the humans assholes for attacking it. Do you believe the humans were justified in their aggression, yes or no? Do you believe the dragon was in the wrong? Not whether it was SMART for the humans to attack, but rather JUSTIFIED aggression on the humans part because the dragon was WRONG for being there. ​

To which you answered....



So beyond the risk to the town, you said here the Dragon was not wrong, and thus the attack was not justified...Not because of the risk, but because it was simply not wrong for the dragon to be there.

Please don't say I don't remember, I do. I've done this ENTIRE argument to point out the massive double standard you hold. Have you now abandoned that double standard and agree the dragon was in the wrong?

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Lol the dragon was not in the wrong my man. How do I make this make sense to you?

War time? Check.
Katolis and Xadia at war, ground invasion stymied by troops on both sides of the breach. Check.
Dragons free to fly over? Check.
All dragons at war with Katolis? Unknown, assuming no. Why?
Glad you asked - during war time why would this dragon be merely circling versus just burning the town down? It had no qualms doing it after being provoked. So why didn't it? Hmm interesting question!

You are steadfast that the humans should be justified in attacking the dragon. I agree, there is cause for considering it an enemy. But seriously? They did what amounted to small arms fire versus a tank in times of war. They stood *zero* chance of hurting that dragon unless they got extremely, extremely lucky with a ballista. Would you risk your whole town on that, mr 3 standard deviations statistics? Of course not, so stop trying to claim I have some wild double standard when I'm merely thinking versus acting. It's what separates Soren from anyone else with half a brain.

Dont be Soren.

Nidhogg said:

Glad you asked - during war time why would this dragon be merely circling versus just burning the town down? It had no qualms doing it after being provoked. So why didn't it? Hmm interesting question!

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Are all humans the dark magic users that Xadians are afraid of? Why do Xadians attack any humans then which cross into their land?

Lithose said:

You've already contradicted yourself, as I pointed out above...Please don't try to write me of ass "only seeing SJWism" when I saw the double standard in your posts that you seem to have forgotten. I never said I agreed with the humans, I've been trying to nail down YOUR objective criteria for judging a people, because you seem to have this huge double standard and so it was important to walk you toward that double standard slowly (Because I can already see you trying to bob/weave to avoid it).

That said, I think you've forgotten the humans won. The dragon didn't overpower them. The humans knocked it out of the sky and could have easily killed it had it not been for our main characters acting completely illogically and defending the dragon as if the dragon was in the right.

Which has been the entire point of this line of reasoning...The only way this weird logic works is if you ignore long chains of reasoning and contradiction before arriving at your "answer". That's the problem with the show in a nutshell, thank you. In order to get to the "moral lesson", the humans have to act in this bizarre, alien way that ignores a LONG LIST of rational reasoning that SHOULD have seen them take DIFFERENT actions well before then. This is how you get characters that act like puppets, or vessels for an ideology, rather than real people.

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Are you really claiming the humans won for any reason other than the ONE of TWO dark magic users in the entire land being there to make the ballista bolt not miss? Yea, let's form our entire war strategy around that LOL. Come on man. Your rational and logical reasonings would just get more people killed than have already been killed in the show. There is a good reason the town left the dragon alone until Soren and claudia showed up. You dont bring a knife to a gun fight.

Lithose said:

Are all humans the dark magic users that Xadians are afraid of? Why do Xadians attack any humans then which cross into their land?

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Because they were exiled? Why does Trump want to kneecap refugees from Mexico? Because Xadia is USA and it closed its borders.

Nidhogg said:

Because they were exiled? Why does Trump want to kneecap refugees from Mexico? Because Xadia is USA and it closed its borders.

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Okay, so is it wrong for the Dragons and Elves to do this to humans?

Lithose said:

Okay, so is it wrong for the Dragons and Elves to do this to humans?

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It was their decision and the humans presumably had little choice in the matter. I cant say if it was wrong but they felt justified to do it at the time.
I dont think all humans are bad because a few found dark magic, the elves and dragons apparently thought differently. I'm not arrogant enough to think my opinion is the "right" opinion though, so wrong? No, they saw a potential hazard to their way of life and excised it. They could have just killed all the humans instead, so I'm assuming at least some of them are benevolent enough to have reason.

Nidhogg said:

It was their decision and the humans presumably had little choice in the matter. I cant say if it was wrong but they felt justified to do it at the time.
I dont think all humans are bad because a few found dark magic, the elves and dragons apparently thought differently. I'm not arrogant enough to think my opinion is the "right" opinion though, so wrong? No, they saw a potential hazard to their way of life and excised it. They could have just killed all the humans instead, so I'm assuming at least some of them are benevolent enough to have reason.

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So the humans would be wrong then, for entering Xadian territory?

Lithose said:

Well, I shouldn't have used meet (Which implies never even passing by a gay person). I should have used "know" one. Typically sexuality only gets shared (Known) in egocentric networks, which are tiny compared to full social networks. While the average social network of most Americans (300-600 people) is large enough that you'll find a few homosexuals within it for the majority of people--most people won't know they are homosexual. When you limit network size to egocentric networks (friends, where personal information is shared), the average American's network is so small that there is a good chance it won't contain anyone who is homosexual. (This is especially true due to how networks tend to obey power law distributions in terms of clustering...So there are some caveats here about whether you measure this is San Fransisco vs another major city).

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You know the 'more likely than not' threshold for at least one occurrence of a 2% chance is 35 cases right ? That takes an awful lot of handwaving about uneven distribution.

velk said:

You know the 'more likely than not' threshold for at least one occurrence of a 2% chance is 35 cases right ? That takes an awful lot of handwaving about uneven distribution.

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Yes, the average egocentric network is 28, 55% chance to not have at least one. No handwaving needed.

Lithose said:

So the humans would be wrong then, for entering Xadian territory?

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They would be considered trespassers, much like how callum will be considered in s3.
Do you think they'll straight kill him no questions asked if they spot him?

Nidhogg said:

They would be considered trespassers, much like how callum will be considered in s3.
Do you think they'll straight kill him no questions asked if they spot him?

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I doubt they will wait three days for him to leave. Most likely, because its viable, they will strip him of his freedom under force of arms after demanding he surrender. If he didn't, they'd probably fire a warning shot to let him know they are serious. If he resists, they will kill him (Or attempt to). Which is how people typically react to forceful entry. Unless you're in the equivalent of a heavily armed tank that is unwilling to communicate, then they might just go with the warning shot first.

But just so we're clear, because I know you already know the trap you've painted yourself into here. Trespassing is wrong, and the Elves would of course be justified with threatening the use of force against a trespasser. Correct?

Lol there is no trap here my man, if he is caught he can be kept prisoner, tortured for information, exiled back to his land, whatever his captors deem fit. If it wasnt war time, I bet the latter would be more reasonable than the formers.

You're still trying to make an argument that this Dragon was illegally flying over human land, when there is no legal precedent to say otherwise. They were at war, which means the humans were in their right to shoot at it, but as I stated many times over that would have been foolish to do, until Soren shows up.
If the dragon wanted to raze the city, hell if all the dragons of xadia decide to invade, I doubt there is much the humans could do to stop them.
Maybe check yourself and think maybe there are some nuances you arent seeing.