The Dragon Prince

Lithose said:

So your answer is the dragon was just ignorant and didn't realize the humans would be defensive at flying over their town night after night? So it wasn't malice, just a little woopsy?

Really?

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I'm not second guessing its motives, you are. I only said it was stupid to provoke it, which empirically it was - it resulted in the town being attacked.
I also am not claiming it was malicious, you are supposing it was, because why else would a dragon be circling overhead for days? Well, we dont know. Rather than figuring it out though, they provoked it. Again, stupid move.

What point are you trying to prove here? Dragons should stay in Xadia because they forced humans out 1000 years ago? Afaik the non entry is only one way, into Xadia. They probably feel like they can do whatever they want going into human lands, but why would they want to?

Nidhogg said:

I'm not second guessing its motives, you are. I only said it was stupid to provoke it, which empirically it was - it resulted in the town being attacked.
I also am not claiming it was malicious, you are supposing it was, because why else would a dragon be circling overhead for days? Well, we dont know. Rather than figuring it out though, they provoked it. Again, stupid move.

What point are you trying to prove here? Dragons should stay in Xadia because they forced humans out 1000 years ago? Afaik the non entry is only one way, into Xadia. They probably feel like they can do whatever they want going into human lands, but why would they want to?

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You called the humans assholes for attacking it. Do you believe the humans were justified in their aggression, yes or no? Do you believe the dragon was in the wrong? Not whether it was SMART for the humans to attack, but rather JUSTIFIED aggression on the humans part because the dragon was WRONG for being there.

Simple question (Keeping this simple because I kind of get the feeling you are starting to understand the massive double standard you're using here and are avoiding being clear in your views now..and this little conflict is a really good example of the broader issue in the show, the extreme double standard that is simply expected from the audience).

TJT said:

Humans gain their edge over a hilariously overpowered oppressive Xadian supernatural prowess by using dark magic. What the fuck else are they supposed to do?

The famine thing is just that. Nobody is just going to starve to death. They were desperate and superpowered Xadians who can solve such problems with magic didn't give a shit. They were totally fine with the humans starving to death.

Humans enter Xadia on pain of death. Elves live in human kingdoms killing off humans that might learn something of their secrets. Just two separate kingdoms sure...

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Wait what? Humans lived in peace with Xadians - they were never said to be oppressive? They were just magical. Being inherently magical doesn't make you oppressive, but it can feel oppressive to non magical creatures. I'm sure Dragons/Elves had a superiority complex to the same degree humans have one with literally every other animal on this planet. There was just never a reason to not live in harmony with the humans until they started doing Dark magic.

Also again I'm pretty sure Xadians gave zero shits about the affairs of humans - famine or no famine.

Nidhogg said:

Wait what? Humans lived in peace with Xadians - they were never said to be oppressive? They were just magical. Being inherently magical doesn't make you oppressive, but it can feel oppressive to non magical creatures. I'm sure Dragons/Elves had a superiority complex to the same degree humans have one with literally every other animal on this planet. There was just never a reason to not live in harmony with the humans until they started doing Dark magic.

Also again I'm pretty sure Xadians gave zero shits about the affairs of humans - famine or no famine.

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They literally infiltrate human kingdoms to make sure humans can't research their own past....

Lithose said:

You called the humans assholes for attacking it. Do you believe the humans were justified in their aggression, yes or no? Do you believe the dragon was in the wrong? Not whether it was SMART for the humans to attack, but rather JUSTIFIED aggression on the humans part because the dragon was WRONG for being there.

Simple question (Keeping this simple because I kind of get the feeling you are starting to understand the massive double standard you're using here and are avoiding being clear in your views now..and this little conflict is a really good example of the broader issue in the show, the extreme double standard that is simply expected from the audience).

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I called Claudia and Soren assholes for attacking it. They were not justified in their aggression. The dragon was in the wrong in what way? There are no rules stating the Dragon cannot be there - there is no such thing as a no fly zone in this story. Xadians want humans OUT of Xadia. Humans have no reverse declaration. Dragons don't go there because why would they? They kicked them out because they thought they were or would be a danger to other magical creatures with Dark magic.
So in answering your question no, the dragon was not in the wrong. There is no double standard here because the story has not set up a scenario where both sides of the Breach are on even terms.
The humans (specifically Claudia and Soren) were not justified in attacking the dragon - but even if they thought they were (which since they are at WAR with them, they could think they were) it was stupid to risk the town.

Lithose said:

They literally infiltrate human kingdoms to make sure humans can't research their own past....

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Are you referencing the one specific bad guy that has all mentions of him erased upon viewing? Yea, good blanket statement to throw out there over one very specific issue.

How about we wait and see what the connection with Aaravos(?) is before jumping to conclusions?

I feel like a lot of this would be solved by simply letting the story be told instead of interjecting your thoughts and feelings on the Whys and Hows not even half-way through.

Nidhogg said:

I called Claudia and Soren assholes for attacking it. They were not justified in their aggression. The dragon was in the wrong in what way? There are no rules stating the Dragon cannot be there - there is no such thing as a no fly zone in this story. Xadians want humans OUT of Xadia. Humans have no reverse declaration. Dragons don't go there because why would they? They kicked them out because they thought they were or would be a danger to other magical creatures with Dark magic.
So in answering your question no, the dragon was not in the wrong. There is no double standard here because the story has not set up a scenario where both sides of the Breach are on even terms.
The humans (specifically Claudia and Soren) were not justified in attacking the dragon - but even if they thought they were (which since they are at WAR with them, they could think they were) it was stupid to risk the town.

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So declaring war and being in an active conflict with a group of people is not a declaration not to be within that person's territory? The humans have active defenses along their border too, your argument seems to be that because Dragon's can bypass those defenses, then it doesn't know what its doing is wrong.

If humans can bypass the river of lava, should they be allowed to walk into Xadia?

TJT said:

This is nonsensical because the humans have a fortress garrisoned with the deaf warrior woman and her army on the border to prevent fire elves from just walking into the human realms. Why would this not apply to dragons? Considering the Thunder dragon was the king of the dragons and Xadia.

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The garrison was established (from what i remember) because of the Katolis expedition that killed the Magma Giant. They feared retaliation and set up a garrison in the main point of ground entry. Notice they have nothing to stop Dragons? Because they cannot. The Elves have been there since the exile - constantly keeping humans out, not the other way around.

I mean this show is absolutely woke as fuck if you assume the elves are the oppressive white people and the humans are the we wuz kangz.

TJT said:

Why did they even have a giant ballista then?

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Apparently humans attacking dragons and setting up 360 degree fortifications to specifically attack dragons (As the character points out "What is that ballista for") is not signal enough they aren't welcome in human lands.

But elves and dragons attacking humans makes it clear humans aren't welcome.

Am I missing something here?

Lithose said:

So declaring war and being in an active conflict with a group of people is not a declaration not to be within that person's territory? The humans have active defenses along their border too, your argument seems to be that because Dragon's can bypass those defenses, then it doesn't know what its doing is wrong.

If humans can bypass the river of lava, should they be allowed to walk into Xadia?

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I'm saying one Kingdom has declared war, not all Kingdoms, on Xadia. Would you like it if a foreign nation invaded your homeland because another nation declared war on them? Wouldn't you be like "Hey now, that's between Katolis and Xadia, leave my people out of it."

Your problem is you are lumping all humans together - where the story has clearly laid out that Katolis and Xadia are at war, not Humans and Xadia.

Lithose said:

Apparently humans attacking dragons and setting up 360 degree fortifications to specifically attack dragons (As the character points out "What is that ballista for") is not signal enough they aren't welcome in human lands.

But elves and dragons attacking humans makes it clear humans aren't welcome.

Am I missing something here?

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They have defenses set up in case they do attack - that is just prudent. What again are you trying to prove here? Just because a gun owner has a gun, he's good to shoot anyone who wanders onto his property? Are you that guy?

Nidhogg said:

I'm saying one Kingdom has declared war, not all Kingdoms, on Xadia. Would you like it if a foreign nation invaded your homeland because another nation declared war on them? Wouldn't you be like "Hey now, that's between Katolis and Xadia, leave my people out of it."

Your problem is you are lumping all humans together - where the story has clearly laid out that Katolis and Xadia are at war, not Humans and Xadia.

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Do you have any examples of Dragons or Elves being freely allowed to walk through the other Kingdoms? (Hasn't this been a focal point of the series even?)

Outside of that though, they were in Katolis; so this is an irrelevant segue. I'm not even sure why you brought it up.

So once again, is a declaration of war enough of a declaration that our territory is off limits, yes or no?

Nidhogg said:

They have defenses set up in case they do attack - that is just prudent. What again are you trying to prove here? Just because a gun owner has a gun, he's good to shoot anyone who wanders onto his property? Are you that guy?

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If I was a soldier in a machine gun nest and enemy soldiers came into my zone of fire, I wouldn't just think the machine gun nest was there to be prudent. The dragon isn't just anyone...its specifically part of a group that is actively fighting humans and would kill humans if humans dared wander into its lands. Please don't be disingenuous and just make it seem like its some harmless dude walking across my lawn.

Again, for a proper comparison it would be more akin being invaded and having an enemy soldier driving around your house scoping it out. You realize how war works right? Scouting is pretty valuable my man...You don't just let the enemy sit there because he's not attacking you actively. (Damn I should NOT have to explain this. This is exactly what I'm talking about where the humans aren't acting logically or naturally at ALL. Which is why characters had to constantly say, through dialogue, that the dragon had not attacked-- they were hoping to emphasize that illogical argument when a plain analysis of the Dragons' actions would indicate it was clearly being extremely aggressive...If the shoe were on the other foot and humans were circling a Dragon's den, there wouldn't even be a question of whether the dragon was justified in attacking them.).

Lithose said:

Do you have any examples of Dragons or Elves being freely allowed to walk through the other Kingdoms? (Hasn't this been a focal point of the series even?)

Outside of that though, they were in Katolis; so this is an irrelevant segue. I'm not even sure why you brought it up.

So once again, is a declaration of war enough of a declaration that our territory is off limits, yes or no?

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Since Xadia declared war, they can be seen as invading. Again, no issue with them shooting the dragon. My issue was putting the town in danger. You keep forgetting that.
The town also had no militia, or anyone in command willing to fire on it (maybe they had sense and knew it was stupid to do until you evacuated the town) either way, claudia and Soren were not justified in shooting it. They should have thought of the townspeople first.