The Dragon Prince

IIRC Xadia declared war / pushed the humans out of the magic lands because a) humans were practicing Dark Magic, which involves killing the local wildlife for magic essence and 4 months(?) or so before the first episode b) they killed the Dragon King, which hasn't been shown.

Lithose you wrote a whole ton of stuff, and to answer I'd say we need to wait and watch for more of the narrative - we currently are only given the human's side of events, and they definitely feel like the oppressed faction. A whole race punished for the actions of a sect of humans (Dark Magic users) does seem extreme, but we don't have first hand knowledge of the whys or hows, only the present-time setting and the story they're telling. The narrative is purposefully set to show the Moonshadow Elves as the antagonists since they are in the background of the story plot, not the foreground, like the humans are. The reason for their aggression is already set (Humans presumably killed the Dragon King and the egg.) for which they are retaliating. We've already been shown at least one point of the Elf propaganda is false (the Egg was spared.) so who knows how much else of history was crafted. I say we wait and see what is to come instead of claiming speculation is fact.

As for the gay/minority stuff, yea uh every time I go to the grocery store, or local university I see one or twenty, and there is enough social outcry that streaming Execs want to include as many demographics as possible, and honestly in a high fantasy setting, having same-sex ideology shouldn't hurt anyone's butts. I'm surprised there aren't any a-sexual or hermaphroditic one-ofs, especially since the canvas they are painting on actually could allow for such things.

velk said:

Assuming 2% is correct, I think there' something wrong with your math there, because that conclusion is batshit crazy unless you live in a cabin in the woods and have never been to school.

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Well, I shouldn't have used meet (Which implies never even passing by a gay person). I should have used "know" one. Typically sexuality only gets shared (Known) in egocentric networks, which are tiny compared to full social networks. While the average social network of most Americans (300-600 people) is large enough that you'll find a few homosexuals within it for the majority of people--most people won't know they are homosexual. When you limit network size to egocentric networks (friends, where personal information is shared), the average American's network is so small that there is a good chance it won't contain anyone who is homosexual. (This is especially true due to how networks tend to obey power law distributions in terms of clustering...So there are some caveats here about whether you measure this is San Fransisco vs another major city).

Nidhogg said:

The narrative is purposefully set to show the Moonshadow Elves as the antagonists since they are in the background of the story plot, not the foreground, like the humans are. The reason for their aggression is already set (Humans presumably killed the Dragon King and the egg.) for which they are retaliating. We've already been shown at least one point of the Elf propaganda is false (the Egg was spared.) so who knows how much else of history was crafted. I say we wait and see what is to come instead of claiming speculation is fact.

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It's not speculation to show how the humans actually act. Many humans in the show trip over themselves trying to apologize to the assholes who are attacking them. If the idea is that most of what humans have done is propaganda than this reaction/outlook is even more, not less, preposterous. This is not how people act when they are being unfairly accused.

Which was the whole issue I had with the show. Everyone acts more like some weird woke person with X-guilt, than a normal person does who is accused hypocritically of wrong doing. Hypocritical accusations tend to absolutely enrage people. Having some dip shit elves attempt to murder innocent people, while claiming 'you're the bad guy', shouldn't have our protagonists apologizing.

As for the gay/minority stuff, yea uh every time I go to the grocery store, or local university I see one or twenty, and there is enough social outcry that streaming Execs want to include as many demographics as possible, and honestly in a high fantasy setting, having same-sex ideology shouldn't hurt anyone's butts. I'm surprised there aren't any a-sexual or hermaphroditic one-ofs, especially since the canvas they are painting on actually could allow for such things.

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Do you shop at whole foods by chance? As said above, due to power law distributions this can change city to city too; but typically a person going into a grocery story isn't going to know the sexuality of the clerk.

Lithose said:

It's not speculation to show how the humans actually act. Many humans in the show trip over themselves trying to apologize to the assholes who are attacking them. If the idea is that most of what humans have done is propaganda than this reaction/outlook is even more, not less, preposterous. This is not how people act when they are being unfairly accused.

Which was the whole issue I had with the show. Everyone acts more like some weird woke person with X-guilt, than a normal person does who is accused hypocritically of wrong doing. Hypocritical accusations tend to absolutely enrage people. Having some dip shit elves attempt to murder innocent people, while claiming 'you're the bad guy', shouldn't have our protagonists apologizing.




Do you shop at whole foods by chance? As said above, due to power law distributions this can change city to city too; but typically a person going into a grocery story isn't going to know the sexuality of the clerk.

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Other than the main cast (Callum and Ez) who else is tripping over themselves? The King knew they were coming and made peace with the consequences of his actions. Self reflection on his deeds isn't intrinsically bad, and if more people did it everyone would be better off. His wife told him it was wrong to hunt the Magma giant, and he ignored her both before and after her death (assuming the King was responsible for whatever took place to kill Thunder and the egg.) Hard lessons for him to learn.

Aside from them, everyone else is either uncaring of Xadia (Virens threats of invasion fell on deaf ears, to the point where he machinated some magicked elves to sow terror for the other kingdoms), warmongering (like Viren, possibly because he is the last of the Dark Magic users left?), or wary of war such as the people stationed at the breach (Amaya and co.) Not nearly the mass apologists you are claiming.

To be clear also, the dip shit elves were murdering 2 specific targets, cutting the head off the snake so to speak. We do it all the time (ISIS leaders much?) it just depends on what side of the conflict you are on whether it's murder or retaliation. That's the story they're telling.

TJT said:

I don't think it's going to really explain enough for it to make sense man. We are two seasons deep now. There have been, as far as we know, 3 Dark Magic users in history. The guy who made elfs hate humans. Viren and Claudia. We don't see the human kingdoms have any other mages at all. It is only Claudia and Viren. Nobody else.

Secondly we know that normal human animals can be used tor this dark magic. Claudia used a deer to heal her brother within the human kingdom. They also use a lot of insects and preserved flower petals and dumb shit like that. None of them have sacrificed an elf or something to cast a fireball. But they obviously could.

Look at the Dragon that Claudia and her brother shot down with a ballista. Okay you have an extremely dangerous magical creature hanging around a human town for some reason. Claudia very reasonably says they should fire a warning shot at it so it goes away. They do and it immediately starts burning their shit. So they use dark magic to make the ballista hit it. When they chain it down and prepare to kill it.

The faggot moonshadow irish elf and the main character rush to the dragon's aid and attack the human soldiers about to kill it. They free the dragon and it immediately breaks the brother's neck and paralyzes him before running off.

But its somehow the humans who were assholes in this situation.

This is why the show has issues.

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I understand what you are saying, but there can't ONLY be 3 dark magic users ever. The split between Xadia and the Humans happend 1000(?) years ago. Viren and Claudia might be the sucessors to previous Dark Magic users, but there have been at least 9-10 generations of them from the very first time Dark Magic was invented.

Secondly we know all life has innate magic - despite what the Elves and other "magical" creatures might think - even humans can touch elemental magic (Callum proves this.) Dark Magic seems to just snuff it out (at the cost of the animal's life.) or it is contained in certain animal parts for use later (reagents.) I personally believe certain Xadian wildlife is imbued with more power than other, "non-magical" creatures like deer. The butterflies Viren keeps in his cupboard IMO is an example of this - they are like an energy drink of Magic for him, whereas Claudia had to presumably kill quite a few deer to power herself up enough to heal her brother.

As for the Dragon scenario - I mean I don't think Dragon's know what warning shots are. Claudia presumed incorrectly that a shot would scare it off, instead it took it as provocation and retaliated. In this specific situation the humans were assholes - Soren and Claudia put an entire town in danger when it wasn't already, for a 50/50 shot that they might scare a Dragon off that was otherwise not bothering them. That is poor judgment and it almost cost Soren his life, which was something Claudia would have had to live with.

When you run with the bulls, you don't complain when one gores you.

Nidhogg said:

Other than the main cast (Callum and Ez) who else is tripping over themselves?

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So other than the characters we are with 90% of the time? lol. You don't see the issue with this distinction?

The King knew they were coming and made peace with the consequences of his actions. Self reflection on his deeds isn't intrinsically bad, and if more people did it everyone would be better off. His wife told him it was wrong to hunt the Magma giant, and he ignored her both before and after her death (assuming the King was responsible for whatever took place to kill Thunder and the egg.) Hard lessons for him to learn.

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Right, the King felt guilty for....not letting his people starve and complete the genocide the Elves/Magical creates began? Is that what you're saying? The king reflected on his actions to save his people from extinction and felt bad enough to accept attempts to kill him were justified due to it? Why didn't the king feel angry he was forced into conflict where he had to kill the giant just to survive, because he'd be forced from his lands? Why does he feel guilty for doing what he NEEDED to do and not ANGRY at the elves who FORCED him to do this?

Aside from them, everyone else is either uncaring of Xadia (Virens threats of invasion fell on deaf ears, to the point where he machinated some magicked elves to sow terror for the other kingdoms), warmongering (like Viren, possibly because he is the last of the Dark Magic users left?), or wary of war such as the people stationed at the breach (Amaya and co.) Not nearly the mass apologists you are claiming.

To be clear also, the dip shit elves were murdering 2 specific targets, cutting the head off the snake so to speak. We do it all the time (ISIS leaders much?) it just depends on what side of the conflict you are on whether it's murder or retaliation. That's the story they're telling.

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Again, the MAIN characters are apologizing up and down and ashamed. Then you list some people who are pretty much neutral, instead of ABSOLUTE enraged they were deprived of thier lands and forced to fight for decades, who are secondary characters. The one dude who is actually upset at all this is characterized as a warmonger in your own words. Where is the outrage at the Elves for forcing them off their land and assassinating humans? I mean, you make a comparison to ISIS. Dude, how many people in ISIS self reflect on why the U.S. kills their leadership? It DOES depend, YES. And people on the OTHER side get pissed the fuck off. Why aren't the humans in the show ANGRY.

That's the whole point I'm making. They aren't acting like real people. They are acting like some weird cult that's already been convinced they are wrong. Real people would be pissed off if this was happening to them, especially if they felt wronged. (But even if they were in the wrong, most people will delude themselves into being victims and ignorantly angry). In this case, the humans so far are CLEARLY the victims, in every way imaginable, and yet they are acting as if they have some significantly culpability in all this. None of this is explained. Its dog shit writing.

I mean half your comments come with little remarks like this....Self reflection on his deeds isn't intrinsically bad, and if more people did it everyone would be better off. Its clear you understand how idealized these characters are acting, and trying to say that's a good thing. Except in a good story? Not so much. Because they feel more like vessels to show off someone's ideal of a 'good society', rather than real people reacting and wrestling with those ideals vs the reality of the world they exist in. Which that conflict? Is what makes stories good. The lack of that conflict, is what makes a story a shallow mess of propaganda for whatever ideology (In this case, we all know the ideology).

Nidhogg said:

I understand what you are saying, but there can't ONLY be 3 dark magic users ever. The split between Xadia and the Humans happend 1000(?) years ago. Viren and Claudia might be the sucessors to previous Dark Magic users, but there have been at least 9-10 generations of them from the very first time Dark Magic was invented.

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This is the show relying on you to fill in what they didn't show. This is bad writing.

Secondly we know all life has innate magic - despite what the Elves and other "magical" creatures might think - even humans can touch elemental magic (Callum proves this.) Dark Magic seems to just snuff it out (at the cost of the animal's life.) or it is contained in certain animal parts for use later (reagents.) I personally believe certain Xadian wildlife is imbued with more power than other, "non-magical" creatures like deer. The butterflies Viren keeps in his cupboard IMO is an example of this - they are like an energy drink of Magic for him, whereas Claudia had to presumably kill quite a few deer to power herself up enough to heal her brother.

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In two seasons this has not be shown. Another case of relying on you to fill in what was not shown to explain how people are acting. This is bad writing. You are now relying on TWO HUGE assumptions to convince yourself humans are in the wrong. Why would you do that?

As for the Dragon scenario - I mean I don't think Dragon's know what warning shots are. Claudia presumed incorrectly that a shot would scare it off, instead it took it as provocation and retaliated. In this specific situation the humans were assholes - Soren and Claudia put an entire town in danger when it wasn't already, for a 50/50 shot that they might scare a Dragon off that was otherwise not bothering them. That is poor judgment and it almost cost Soren his life, which was something Claudia would have had to live with.

When you run with the bulls, you don't complain when one gores you.

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Think humans could just go hang out around a Dragon's home? Like could they swoop in on horseback around a Dragon's nest as long as they didn't attack?

Oh, no...we KNOW they can't, because dragons kill humans that even enter that side of the CONTINENT. So given how you JUST judged humans here, you agree Dragon's are fucking assholes for attacking and driving most humans off their lands even if they were peaceful, right? You agree Dragon's and Elves are assholes for attacking humans who attempt to go back to Xadia right? You see the problem don't you? You are using two weirdly different standards to judge things. In one case, humans are assholes for defending their territory from a creature that belongs to a group which has waged a campaign of near genocide against them, all because that specific creature didn't attack. On the other hand, you justify the unprovoked aggression against humans because a few might have had some conflicts with magical creatures?

See how you're holding the two sides to wildly different standards of behavior? Why is that?

Lithose said:

So other than the characters we are with 90% of the time? lol. You don't see the issue with this distinction?

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No, from the POV that not every character is apologetic - and honestly I don't really think they are apologetic either - I think they are seeing war in their history and how little it has solved and working for another solution.

Right, the King felt guilty for....not letting his people starve and complete the genocide the Elves/Magical creates began? Is that what you're saying? The king reflected on his actions to save his people from extinction and felt bad enough to accept attempts to kill him were justified due to it? Why didn't the king feel angry he was forced into conflict where he had to kill the giant just to survive, because he'd be forced from his lands? Why does he feel guilty for doing what he NEEDED to do and not ANGRY at the elves who FORCED him to do this?

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Whoa whoa, hangon, the King did what was right for his Kingdom at the time and made the right call. Granted he didn't go through a ton of options before landing on the "Kill the endangered Magical Creature" but whatever, he made a choice and stuck with it, even when his wife called it into question. That's what a King does - the consequence was a War with Xadia.
With that in mind though, we have ZERO evidence or knowledge of his culpability in the Dragon King's death or the role he played in it, which is the reason the Moonshadow Elves sent assassins to kill him and the prince (an eye for an eye, King and Prince for a King and Prince.)

Again, the MAIN characters are apologizing up and down and ashamed. Then you list some people who are pretty much neutral, instead of ABSOLUTE enraged they were deprived of thier lands and forced to fight for decades, who are secondary characters. The one dude who is actually upset at all this is characterized as a warmonger in your own words. Where is the outrage at the Elves for forcing them off their land and assassinating humans? I mean, you make a comparison to ISIS. Dude, how many people in ISIS self reflect on why the U.S. kills their leadership? It DOES depend, YES. And people on the OTHER side get pissed the fuck off. Why aren't the humans in the show ANGRY.

That's the whole point I'm making. They aren't acting like real people. They are acting like some weird cult that's already been convinced they are wrong. Real people would be pissed off if this was happening to them, especially if they felt wronged. (But even if they were in the wrong, most people will delude themselves into being victims and ignorantly angry). In this case, the humans so far are CLEARLY the victims, in every way imaginable, and yet they are acting as if they have some significantly culpability in all this. None of this is explained. Its dog shit writing.

I mean half your comments come with little remarks like this....Self reflection on his deeds isn't intrinsically bad, and if more people did it everyone would be better off. Its clear you understand how idealized these characters are acting, and trying to say that's a good thing. Except in a good story? Not so much. Because they feel more like vessels to show off someone's ideal of a 'good society', rather than real people reacting and wrestling with those ideals vs the reality of the world they exist in. Which that conflict? Is what makes stories good. The lack of that conflict, is what makes a story a shallow mess of propaganda for whatever ideology (In this case, we all know the ideology).

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There is zero reason for the humans to be enraged at being deprived of their lands- that was literally 1000 years ago. The people alive know nothing except their own lands and the fact that they are on the West side of the Breach and Xadia is forbidden territory patrolled by Elves, Dragons and etc. People today aren't outraged at where they currently live on our own planet, nor do we care about who killed whom or who got pushed out of where in Medieval times or before then.

There is only the current conflict, which was set in motion by King Harrow's multiple excursions into Xadia - so rightfully only the people of Katolis have any leg in the race currently - which again this is reinforced by Viren trying to speak to the other Kingdom's in that backstory-infused council session.

No, from the POV that not every character is apologetic - and honestly I don't really think they are apologetic either - I think they are seeing war in their history and how little it has solved and working for another solution.

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If you don't see them as apologetic, then we're probably not going to be able to debate because our reference frames are skewed. Upon their first meeting, our human main character literally apologized to the elf assassin that tried to kill his father.

Whoa whoa, hangon, the King did what was right for his Kingdom at the time and made the right call. Granted he didn't go through a ton of options before landing on the "Kill the endangered Magical Creature" but whatever, he made a choice and stuck with it, even when his wife called it into question. That's what a King does - the consequence was a War with Xadia.
With that in mind though, we have ZERO evidence or knowledge of his culpability in the Dragon King's death or the role he played in it, which is the reason the Moonshadow Elves sent assassins to kill him and the prince (an eye for an eye, King and Prince for a King and Prince.)

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Read below. The dragon king was an asshole, by your own judgement of how people should act if they attacked for merely "entering territory". Again, given your judgement, the humans were absolutely justified in attacking the Dragon Prince who was attempting to deny them entry. So what is it? Are people allowed to deny access to territory from another racial group, and then justified in attacking if the group attempting to deny them access warns them off or attacks them, or are they not? The war with Xadia is merely additional oppression due to humanity fighting back against oppression. Maybe this should inspire some reflection on the losses that standing up for yourselves might incur, but that's not what we see, what we see is guilt and remorse.

There is zero reason for the humans to be enraged at being deprived of their lands- that was literally 1000 years ago. The people alive know nothing except their own lands and the fact that they are on the West side of the Breach and Xadia is forbidden territory patrolled by Elves, Dragons and etc. People today aren't outraged at where they currently live on our own planet, nor do we care about who killed whom or who got pushed out of where in Medieval times or before then.

There is only the current conflict, which was set in motion by King Harrow's multiple excursions into Xadia - so rightfully only the people of Katolis have any leg in the race currently - which again this is reinforced by Viren trying to speak to the other Kingdom's in that backstory-infused council session.

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Wait, I thought people were being assholes if they denied access to lands without provocation? Now you're saying there is the land patrolled by Dragons and Elves that humans can't access even if they are peaceful?

Does that make the Dragons' and Elves assholes? Humans are making excursions to literally survive, because the land they were banished to is not as plentiful as the land they were banished from. And they are being denied that resources simply for being human. This makes, by your OWN judgement, the Dragon's and Elves assholes. Now explain why the humans don't feel extremely justified in their behavior?

Also, that's a huge assumption to make about outrage in the world. I'd say Islam vs the West is a systemic conflict going back easily more than a thousand years and much of the conflict today is driven by harms originating from the medieval period. Humans hold grudges.

TJT said:

Correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that the famine in the human kingdoms was a generic famine not caused by elf magic. The reason to hunt the magma titan was because they could use its heart to force another growing season within the same year and thus not starve out.

Meanwhile the elf nations didn't lift a finger about any of this and were totally cool with humans outright starving to death. In fact they opposed them on pain of death when they made went on their desperate quest to get the heart and not die. Leading to the humans killing the thunder dragon and the events of the current story.

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Yeah, that's the thing. In the magical lands its implied there were no famines because magic as a resource could prevent it--things were far more bountiful. Which is why the humans were denied access, for fear they'd abuse their death magic to become even more powerful. Humans in their banished continent are starved for magic fuel, and thus had to go kill something like the Magma titan to make up for their lack of natural access now thanks to where they live.

Lithose said:

This is the show relying on you to fill in what they didn't show. This is bad writing.



In two seasons this has not be shown. Another case of relying on you to fill in what was not shown to explain how people are acting. This is bad writing. You are now relying on TWO HUGE assumptions to convince yourself humans are in the wrong. Why would you do that?


Think humans could just go hang out around a Dragon's home? Like could they swoop in on horseback around a Dragon's nest as long as they didn't attack?

Oh, no...we KNOW they can't, because dragons kill humans that even enter that side of the CONTINENT. So given how you JUST judged humans here, you agree Dragon's are fucking assholes for attacking and driving most humans off their lands even if they were peaceful, right? You agree Dragon's and Elves are assholes for attacking humans who attempt to go back to Xadia right? You see the problem don't you? You are using two weirdly different standards to judge things. In one case, humans are assholes for defending their territory from a creature that belongs to a group which has waged a campaign of near genocide against them, all because that specific creature didn't attack. On the other hand, you justify the unprovoked aggression against humans because a few might have had some conflicts with magical creatures?

See how you're holding the two sides to wildly different standards of behavior? Why is that?

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You act like this show is done and we aren't 2/7ths of the way through the story. How about you hold your judgment and "bad storytelling" until the series is finished?

Do you think you can go hang around a Brown Bear den and as long as you didn't shoot at it, the mama bear would just be chill with you? Dragons have been shown to be territorial, and they have intelligence. We haven't been given the Red Dragon's reasons or intentions for circling the town for 3 days. It might have been looking for a reason to raze it - I'm not judging it's intentions because it wasn't given to us. We were given the human's intentions, so I judge that, and to be clear my issue is that they put the whole town in danger, not that they tried to kill the dragon. As I said, zero knowledge of the dragon's intentions, but it was poor judgment to risk a town of innocents to shoot at a dragon that has been circling there for days, unprovoked.

Also yes, I think most of the established Elder Dragons we have been shown so far are assholes - they are fucking dragons after all, I don't expect them (yet) to have any shiny dispositions about humans, especially since their King (and to their knowledge their Prince) was just killed. Pretty sure they're all royally pissed. The only dragon you've shown in the story that you can have any empathy for is the Dragon Prince, who doesn't know about any of the conflicts and has no predisposed hatred towards humans.

TJT said:

This goes even further than that as well. Because the elves not only magically sundered the land to keep humans out of Xadia (we know the elves did this because herp derp humans aren't magical) they also systematically destroyed any of their remaining infrastructure so the humans couldn't use it. On top of that they had clandestine elves guarding those ruins to prevent humans from learning anything about the primal magic from the scraps. This was the ruin that Callum went to with the elf who could cast illusion magic. She specifically said she drove any human who came to close to it insane.

These are ruins that are not even in Xadia and the xenophobic fanatical elves guard them like this. But they tolerated Callum because of the dragon prince and the irish moonshadow elf.

The lava river separating the human kingdoms and Xadia are also guarded by elves with literal lightsabers and other magical shit. The humans have only steel and are somehow able to fight them as we saw.

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Yeah, it would be considered a cultural genocide by today's standards. The elves didn't just banish them, they went through and ripped apart elements of human culture and society, regressing the society generations and then using martial power to maintain humanity's status as a backwards, powerless people.

And there is nothing in the show justifying this. Maybe if they showed humans were just savages with no redeeming qualities, or some kind of weird magical extremists whose practice of dark magic was clearly destructive and widespread, I could understand the motivation of the magical creatures. Nidhogg caparison to ISIS might make more sense then, the Dragon's and Elves are kind of just trying to contain a bunch of psychos and keep them from power until they get their shit together.

But that's not what we see. Humans are so noble its almost alien. The single human with any actual aggression, is shown to be the 'war monger', everyone else is neutral or apologetic and reflective. From a viewers perspective, there is just no justification for this kind of outrageous tyranny and yet the people in the show all seem to act like they brought this on themselves. I don't understand why.

Nidhogg said:

Do you think you can go hang around a Brown Bear den and as long as you didn't shoot at it, the mama bear would just be chill with you? Dragons have been shown to be territorial, and they have intelligence. We haven't been given the Red Dragon's reasons or intentions for circling the town for 3 days.

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Now apply this logic to the scared humans in that town who were there with their children and be circled by a fire breathing dragon....

Let me remind you how you judged the humans for "not chilling" with the dragon and being territorial....(Again, the humans were in their homes, they were being "Mama bears" here, and they still restrained themselves for three FULL nights as the dragon relentlessly intimidated and frightened them).

Nidhogg said:

As for the Dragon scenario - I mean I don't think Dragon's know what warning shots are. Claudia presumed incorrectly that a shot would scare it off, instead it took it as provocation and retaliated. In this specific situation the humans were assholes - Soren and Claudia put an entire town in danger when it wasn't already, for a 50/50 shot that they might scare a Dragon off that was otherwise not bothering them. That is poor judgment and it almost cost Soren his life, which was something Claudia would have had to live with.


When you run with the bulls, you don't complain when one gores you.

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Can you explain your radically different judgement here?

You act like this show is done and we aren't 2/7ths of the way through the story. How about you hold your judgment and "bad storytelling" until the series is finished?

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If you haven't explained basic character motivations in the first act, your story is garbage. You can hide personal grievances and motivations as twists, but if your general world doesn't really make sense and you're 1/3 through the story? Most likely the writing is bad.

Lithose said:

If you don't see them as apologetic, then we're probably not going to be able to debate because our reference frames are skewed. Upon their first meeting, our human main character literally apologized to the elf assassin that tried to kill his father.



Read below. The dragon king was an asshole, by your own judgement of how people should act if they attacked for merely "entering territory". Again, given your judgement, the humans were absolutely justified in attacking the Dragon Prince who was attempting to deny them entry. So what is it? Are people allowed to deny access to territory from another racial group, and then justified in attacking if the group attempting to deny them access warns them off or attacks them, or are they not? The war with Xadia is merely additional oppression due to humanity fighting back against oppression. Maybe this should inspire some reflection on the losses that standing up for yourselves might incur, but that's not what we see, what we see is guilt and remorse.



Wait, I thought people were being assholes if they denied access to lands without provocation? Now you're saying there is the land patrolled by Dragons and Elves that humans can't access even if they are peaceful?

Does that make the Dragons' and Elves assholes? Humans are making excursions to literally survive, because the land they were banished to is not as plentiful as the land they were banished from. And they are being denied that resources simply for being human. This makes, by your OWN judgement, the Dragon's and Elves assholes. Now explain why the humans don't feel extremely justified in their behavior?

Also, that's a huge assumption to make about outrage in the world. I'd say Islam vs the West is a systemic conflict going back easily more than a thousand years and much of the conflict today is driven by harms originating from the medieval period. Humans hold grudges.

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I think we are viewing this through two totally separate lenses I agree - you are seeing this as an oppressive main state (Xadia) holding down the lesser people in Human-land by denying access to the wonders of magic.

I simply see it as 2 separate nations living their lives and tending to their own Kingdoms. Plenty of other Kingdoms seem to be doing just fine - even Katolis was doing fine - the famine (that I remember) was not wrought by any magic, just simply something that happened. Why would the Elves, or any of the Xadians interfere with a famine when they have kept to their own for centuries? Humans to everyone's knowledge cannot innately harness magic, so them being cut off from Xadia shouldn't be an issue for humans.

As for entering territority - IMO you do it at your own risk. There is a "Danger, do not enter" sign for anyone going to Xadia - and a huge scar of molten rock and Fire Elf patrols to enforce it. If you get past that - then that's on you. On the reverse however, there is no "Danger, do not enter" sign, because the humans either don't care, or can't enforce such a decree. They are stationed there to show force, kind of like how N and S Korea do at their border, but beyond that, how exactly do they stop Dragons from flying wherever they please?

Nidhogg said:

As for entering territority - IMO you do it at your own risk. There is a "Danger, do not enter" sign for anyone going to Xadia - and a huge scar of molten rock and Fire Elf patrols to enforce it. If you get past that - then that's on you. On the reverse however, there is no "Danger, do not enter" sign, because the humans either don't care, or can't enforce such a decree. They are stationed there to show force, kind of like how N and S Korea do at their border, but beyond that, how exactly do they stop Dragons from flying wherever they please?

Click to expand...

So your answer is the dragon was just ignorant and didn't realize the humans would be defensive at flying over their town night after night? So it wasn't malice, just a little woopsy?

Really?