The Elder Scrolls Online

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

RobXIII

Urinal Cake Consumption King
<Gold Donor>
3,852
2,220
That's a fantastic list.

Yeah I know we're all annoyed that they should've released with all that fixed to begin with, but be sure to remove all the AngryGamer stuff (ie 'faced the reality of their failing game').

Most of us think it's too late though. MMOs only have a short window to impress and keep people subbed.
 

Bondurant

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,845
4,792
I've been asked to meet with ZOS on Wednesday and talk about what we'd like changed in ESO. We (PRX) came up with a bunch of changes and I compiled them into this list. Please review it and let me know if you have anything you'd want added. Note that I'm focusing on Cyrodiil centric items and don't really care about PVE, crafting etc.
Nice list. Though, I don't want to sound harsh but this sounds a lot like you're asking for a whole new game. One month and a half after release, it's crystal clear the game will stay like it actually is. PvP felt kind of good because there was that new car smell around, but right after an intensive first month anyone can figure this game will never be good because combat gameplay feels like running a hurdle track with a pair of skis. Good luck changing that.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,503
1,151
That's a fantastic list.

Yeah I know we're all annoyed that they should've released with all that fixed to begin with, but be sure to remove all the AngryGamer stuff (ie 'faced the reality of their failing game').

Most of us think it's too late though. MMOs only have a short window to impress and keep people subbed.
Its definitely too late, these devs think they are brilliant and dont listen to a word of feedback until its too late. Half the changes tuco listed are core design issues with cyrodiil, ones that should have been apparent from the start. No one who actually plays pvp works in the industry I think.
 

Dr Neir

Trakanon Raider
832
1,505
Tuco,
Tell them to FIX RUNES!!!! Need more circles!!! Just want more circles, circles to loot, in bags and looting and breaking. This is the biggest PITA in the game crafting wise. CIRCLES. TAs, kutas, etc....MORE FUCKING CIRCLES!!!

Rest of the game is unfixable. No point is bringing it up.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
I can't think of any situation where a MMO was able to recover from a crappy launch. MMO players really do like whatever is new and shiny. Fixing issues and improving gameplay barely ever, if ever, will repair a huge loss of population.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,366
80,749
Tuco,
Tell them to FIX RUNES!!!! Need more circles!!! Just want more circles, circles to loot, in bags and looting and breaking. This is the biggest PITA in the game crafting wise. CIRCLES. TAs, kutas, etc....MORE FUCKING CIRCLES!!!

Rest of the game is unfixable. No point is bringing it up.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Volcanic Rune works great.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,366
80,749
Nice list. Though, I don't want to sound harsh but this sounds a lot like you're asking for a whole new game. One month and a half after release, it's crystal clear the game will stay like it actually is. PvP felt kind of good because there was that new car smell around, but right after an intensive first month anyone can figure this game will never be good because combat gameplay feels like running a hurdle track with a pair of skis. Good luck changing that.
Yeah maybe. I feel like they could go down that list, pick out the easy ideas to implement and drastically improve the game. But while writing that I realized just how much shit is wrong that it's impossible for them to ever fix the game much less fix it before we move on to ArcheAge.

And that's a huge list of deal-breaking issues too. About half of those bullet points were items that people in our guild said were the number 1 reason they quit ESO.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,366
80,749
I can't think of any situation where a MMO was able to recover from a crappy launch. MMO players really do like whatever is new and shiny. Fixing issues and improving gameplay barely ever, if ever, will repair a huge loss of population.
I don't even know if it's because things are new and shiny, I think the reason MMOs only get one chance to be successful is because it's so much fun to play an MMO at release with the release community. Everyone is figuring everything out and the learning process makes the game much more interactive.

If you go to an MMO months after release, especially a failed MMO. The leveling is a ghost town with a sparse population that's leveling their alts and won't engage with you or random baddies running around. Meanwhile the high end is full of people who are max level, max gear etc, and if you are the kind of person who likes a failed MMO enough to stick with it for months and months you're probably addled.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
*List Of Savior's Blessings*
You know, if they had justhalfof the things mentioned on this list I wouldn't have stopped the sub... seriously. The game didn't have to be perfect but I simply got tired of the excuses people were making for the trashy state this game was in. I don't think people have to harp on the negative constantly but sunshine up my ass as a fix is twice as bad (fucking 'workarounds'). Nameplates (and for me a better AH/inventory system).

The one thing I came away reading out of that list was "...like in GW2." "...one thing GW2 did right..." "...GW2 is better in this regard for..." (not verbatim). That is the main thing I think a lot of people who even only marginally liked GW2 thought. If they are going to be shelling out money for this experience, the game cannot be 'just as good' as GW2... it has to bebetter.The problem is it's not even the same and they are charging.

I stopped playing GW2 after the first Xmas event but not because the game was a mess like ESO. Not because it costs to much monthly (doesn't cost anything). Not because I hated the playerbase (started to hate ESO's fanboys in the end inside that game) or bots or the 'economy was ruined'. The main reason that happened was because I thought the game was average, didn't do enough for PvE raiding like TOR/FFVIX/DCUO did and chiefly because I could go back at any time to pick it up without really missing a beat. That's ESO's big problem... most people aren't going to pay a sub while they get their act together; the market is just to saturated with games already just as good or better for free or B2P.

For most players I think, if the main selling point for the future fixes and direction is "just like GW2 did", why not just go play GW2? Countless times that's what was asked but the reply was 'It's better than GW2, that's why". That's not a knock on your list because I actually liked the PvP in GW2 because I really didn't feel like I had to do it everyday or else, and the resets were timely.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,366
80,749
I agree 100%, Jack.

I think GW2 had the best RvR instance and the best leveling experience in the MMO space. Its big problem is that it got stale and repetitive at the high end. The end-game PVE was awful and I've probably taken and defended every inch of territory in WvW dozens of times (and in some cases, ex: Anzalias Pass, Quentin Lake etc) hundreds of times. The WvW was clean (except for culling/lag) but felt sterile after a while, it needed more sandbox elements to vary it up.

There's something important that theme park MMOs lack, the sense that you can spend a year in a game and then go out with your buddies and adventure and experience something new. That sense is brought 100% from player interaction and it's something that phasing, instancing, no PvP and no difficult content kill.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
3v3 instanced pvp will never work. In a game that is a single playground where you teleport in to bash castle walls, and take points on a map and nothing else matters is going to fail. I'm done with that model.

If you want to make a PVP game, then your whole game needs to be designed for it. Resource control, land control, character leveling, character progression all needs to do PVP. And those control aspects? Can't flip in 10 minutes. Losing land, resources, position needs to HURT really bad.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,366
80,749
3v3 instanced pvp will never work. In a game that is a single playground where you teleport in to bash castle walls, and take points on a map and nothing else matters is going to fail. I'm done with that model.

If you want to make a PVP game, then your whole game needs to be designed for it. Resource control, land control, character leveling, character progression all needs to do PVP. And those control aspects? Can't flip in 10 minutes. Losing land, resources, position needs to HURT really bad.
Yeah I agree with this. If they changed Cyrodiil to be a non-instanced VR leveling zone with 3 contestable keeps, one big castle in the center, and a collection of towers scattered through, then made the three border zones 'contested' zones with one or two contestable keeps each, it'd be a lot more interesting.
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,503
1,151
Nothing has permanence or matters at all. So most players stop giving a shit when the shine wears off.

Some games recover after bad launches, eve launch was a trainwreck for like a year remember, but the core of the design was good and once things got fixed it turned around slowly. Most games that fail have shit design in addition to lag and bug launch issues and so can never recover. It helps when there isn't a ton of similar competition too.

Eso actually could recover, there aren't many similar games, but it won't. When the people in charge are too dim to make any good decisions initially expecting them to start suddenly designing good robust systems when their failure is laid bare is insane. Its why I always get a kick out of the guys that think vanguard only needed 6 more months.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
This sounds like a whole lot of shit that will never, ever happen.

They've got tyens army infesting their game and you're talking about basic ruleset changes.

hehe.

I hope they pay you for that shit, Tuco.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
Eso actually could recover, there aren't many similar games, but it won't.
Not similar as in Realms PvP, or... ?

Because I don't see anything they do different than GW2 or even Planetside 2 or Darkfall other than the skin the game comes in. I still think to the vast majority of PvPers (not those on these boards), most people don't give a shit about the mechanical side of any PvP match. Like, they don't know why having more than one entrance on a keep is important and they will happily line up like people waiting for welfare checks on a flight of stairs while getting ROFLAOED by mages.

The biggest thing to most people is "Am I winning?" If they aren't, they will quit. That goes to faction pride more than anything. I always laugh when I see a poll before a new game launches and they say "What side will you roll?" where a couple hundred vote, and then think about all the hundreds of thousand of other people wondering where the 'The Winning Side' option is, because that's what happens after launch.

The problem with mass PvP is the same thing that makes it attractive from the beginning; the prospect of a large battle with 'thousands of players'. In order for it to work, a game must do what Draeg said, built all that right from the start from scratch. And oh yeah... it needs thousands of players. The whole of the game has to be dedicated to it, it cannot half-step. When one side begins to dominate, the losers start bailing or repatriating and then the population gets smaller. Few weeks/months later it repeats, even if the "losing side" now flips to winning.. people who were used to winning start quitting.

Imo, PvP should never be designed for a large scale. It would just cost too much. It should stay as a niche industry where those 300k players will stay because the game gives them what they want, a reason to keep playing even when they are losing, not because they are winning. I'm not talking about 'Everyone's A Winner!" trophies, but some kind of real incentives to keep people in the game when by all rights they should have no reason to stick around because PRX will smash their faces in again.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,366
80,749
One of the key elements to a long-lived mass PVP game is inter-server competition. GW2 was fairly well built for this with an ELO Matchmaking system because of its instanced PvP but there's no reason why a game like ArcheAge couldn't have that too. One of the biggest features we requested in Shadowbane was a way to invade other servers so the big dogs of each server could fight one another.

It's tough to say how the PvP will play out in AA with the variety of ways players can engage one another. On server A a huge alliance makes a new faction and defeats the pirates and east/west. On server B the west faction could dominate everyone. On server C the pirates could dominate etc.

A sandboxy way to mitigate monopolization and boredom is to allow players to build an expensive portal device that allows them to mass teleport to a different server. Would be extra cool if it was a permanent structure only buildable in a castle and required a reasonably priced portal stone to activate each time. This would allow guilds to transfer over and terrorize another big guild.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
Not similar as in Realms PvP, or... ?

Because I don't see anything they do different than GW2 or even Planetside 2 or Darkfall other than the skin the game comes in. I still think to the vast majority of PvPers (not those on these boards), most people don't give a shit about the mechanical side of any PvP match. Like, they don't know why having more than one entrance on a keep is important and they will happily line up like people waiting for welfare checks on a flight of stairs while getting ROFLAOED by mages.

The biggest thing to most people is "Am I winning?" If they aren't, they will quit. That goes to faction pride more than anything. I always laugh when I see a poll before a new game launches and they say "What side will you roll?" where a couple hundred vote, and then think about all the hundreds of thousand of other people wondering where the 'The Winning Side' option is, because that's what happens after launch.

The problem with mass PvP is the same thing that makes it attractive from the beginning; the prospect of a large battle with 'thousands of players'. In order for it to work, a game must do what Draeg said, built all that right from the start from scratch. And oh yeah... it needs thousands of players. The whole of the game has to be dedicated to it, it cannot half-step. When one side begins to dominate, the losers start bailing or repatriating and then the population gets smaller. Few weeks/months later it repeats, even if the "losing side" now flips to winning.. people who were used to winning start quitting.

Imo, PvP should never be designed for a large scale. It would just cost too much. It should stay as a niche industry where those 300k players will stay because the game gives them what they want, a reason to keep playing even when they are losing, not because they are winning. I'm not talking about 'Everyone's A Winner!" trophies, but some kind of real incentives to keep people in the game when by all rights they should have no reason to stick around because PRX will smash their faces in again.
Let's assume you are 100% correct and that for most people, all that matters is "Am I winning" and if not they will quit. Everyone who is a parent knows that is standard childish behavior that, if raised properly, your child eventually matures and stops displaying.

Why should any MMO developer design their game, whether it be PVP or PVE content, to cater to this crowd? Should they not be focused on satisfying the more mature player?
 

Creslin

Trakanon Raider
2,503
1,151
The only way for it to really work is for the world to be so large no one force can ever really hope to hold it. You could do that through portals but I kinda dislike the idea that you win and get bored on your map so you go fuck up someone elses. Its kinda the same problem as cyrodiil guest campaigns, its all fast travel so there is little cost to invading someone elses area, if you get sieged while far away fighting there is plenty of time to pack up and get back to defend your shit. It only works in eve because moving that cap fleet across space comes at a high cost and takes awhile, its not that fast or cheap to move an actual siege force.

@jack, I don't think people only care about winning, all these fail games are based off letting Timmy win as much as possible(which in pvp is half the time) and they are all failing, because Timmy isn't as stupid as people think. people want to win yes but there is also a sports team mentality to it where if you care about your guild\faction you want them to win, not just to be cheering for whatever side ends up winning. Most of these games offer red team vs blue team tho and completely fail to make you give a shit so ya in that case its only about personal victories.

That's also why giving huge advantages to winners is a terrible idea in pvp games, it reinforces the bad behavior of just picking the winning side. Take eve as an example again, the benefit to the average pilot of their territory is fairly low, which means if its ever lost its a lose of pride more than totally crippling your game experience. Darkfall had trouble both because distance wasn't meaningful enough and because losing was way to large a kick in the balls.

You can't always win, most adult male gamers play pvp games of some sort, which means most of them lose at least half the time.