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K

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
Personally I determine success by how long I play it.

If you make a MMO and can't keep me interested longer than 30 days you fail. Financial success in the end? Don't really give a shit.

Longer you keep me playing the better. These days games are beaten inside of the free month. Not much reason to stick around.



TESO - Skipped. Was in alpha a long time and could hardly stand it. I'm a huge ES fan. They made the game they wanted and I hope the current crew never makes another one.

Wildstar - Skipped, also in alpha and never made it past 17 or so

NWN - Played about a week

GW2 - Played 7 months or so

Eve - 3 months (played this late, one of the few titles i picked up way after release)

Tera - Played 2 months

TOR - Played 3 months. Bought 6. Felt like I got my monies worth despite its massive flaws and shitty development. Went back when f2p but never played long. Sad when looking at TESO I have fond memories of TOR because at least that game was worth a couple of play throughs.

Aion - Played 2 months

Warhammer - Played little over a month

Vanguard - Played a month

Rift - Month

LOTR - week, couldn't take the floaty combat / animations

WoW - Played a year and a half

DAOC - Played 3 years

EQ - Played a couple of years i guess can't remember now. Maybe more.
 
T

TheYanger

Bronze Knight of the Realm
264
30
Kedwyn_sl said:
Personally I determine success by how long I play it.

If you make a MMO and can't keep me interested longer than 30 days you fail. Financial success in the end? Don't really give a shit.

Longer you keep me playing the better. These days games are beaten inside of the free month. Not much reason to stick around.



TESO - Skipped. Was in alpha a long time and could hardly stand it. I'm a huge ES fan. They made the game they wanted and I hope the current crew never makes another one.

Wildstar - Skipped, also in alpha and never made it past 17 or so

NWN - Played about a week

GW2 - Played 7 months or so

Eve - 3 months (played this late, one of the few titles i picked up way after release)

Tera - Played 2 months

TOR - Played 3 months. Bought 6. Felt like I got my monies worth despite its massive flaws and shitty development. Went back when f2p but never played long. Sad when looking at TESO I have fond memories of TOR because at least that game was worth a couple of play throughs.

Aion - Played 2 months

Warhammer - Played little over a month

Vanguard - Played a month

Rift - Month

LOTR - week, couldn't take the floaty combat / animations

WoW - Played a year and a half

DAOC - Played 3 years

EQ - Played a couple of years i guess can't remember now. Maybe more.
Click to expand...
So in other words, you've played like 1 MMO ever. This is clearly not the genre for you if you're THAT easily tired of them.
 
Cinge

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,320
2,392
It's almost like once you finished EQ/DAOC your MMOs days were over :p Hell I have two MMOs I have played for 5+ years and probably like 6 or 7 that I did for 1 year + . 1 Month and quit is pretty rare for me, I literally have to be having zero fun when the intial month is up to quit. Even those though, that intial month usually gives me 100+ hours, which for $60 bucks is good value. I don't think I have bought a single mmo where I thought I didn't get my monies worth and thus unsuccessful to me personally, especially int he last decade where I can usually weed out games I wont enjoy before buying them.
 
Palum

Palum

what Suineg set it to
27,504
43,771
Draegan_sl said:
I'm not defending TESO's shittiness. A non failure in my books is anything that makes a profit. I dont' care about measuring that success.
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I use the "if the launch cycle resembles Blackberry's meteoric collapse to ignominy, it's probably a failure" litmus test.
 
K

Kedwyn

Silver Squire
3,915
80
TheYanger_sl said:
So in other words, you've played like 1 MMO ever. This is clearly not the genre for you if you're THAT easily tired of them.
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Yup only played one. Try and stay above the 69 line.

rrr_img_71696.gif
 
D

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Draegan_sl said:
No it sounded like you were whining for a dude to get banned like a pussy.
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Yeah well I wasn't. But I'm sure you know what I was thinking. Beat it fuckhead. Go back to constantly contradicting the general consensus with straw man arguments so you feel important.

You know exactly what everyone is saying when they call it a failure but you need to be a faggot about it so you feel some kind of superiority.
 
Tuco

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
47,938
82,643
TheYanger_sl said:
So in other words, you've played like 1 MMO ever. This is clearly not the genre for you if you're THAT easily tired of them.
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Oh I don't agree with that. I'd agree with Kedwyn's threshold of one month. If you play medium-hardcore you can enjoy everything ESO has to offer in a month.

The two end-games that MMOs after WoW seem to lack is:
1. An endless community-driven item hunt to improve your character and increase its status and help your friends do the same.
2. An endless community-driven PVP war to constantly attempt to tear down your enemy and improve your own status.

EQ did the best with #1 of any game I've played. There was always another item to get, and there was always someone needing help with an item camp, epic weapon, coldain ring quest etc. #2 is what I'm hoping ArcheAge turns into for us.

ESO's stance on phasing, nameplates, end-game itemization (or lack thereof) and PvP pretty much worked to remove any chance of #1 and #2 happening.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
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/\/\ The use of phasing in this specific game driving a wedge with the community as a whole was an all new low for this genre in my opinion. Almost as bad as WoW's cross server overland crap.

The main problem with this genre and industry as a whole is opportunity cost doesn't exist. It's either a profit/shipped, a loss/shipped. or didn't ship. And the one equation out of that that matters most? Is it shipped.

I consider any title that has a massive IP behind it not realizing it's opportunity due to a result of poor management and very bad design decisions, a failure. Things that could be easily avoided but aren't. For the sake of an ego, or simply people, a person, whoever, who are in this industry because they want to be a producer who may pull in $120k a year while being completely out of touch with gaming because they really look at it as another job. One that when they complete it, they will rinse and wash their way to another company to do it all over again. Which is why some relic designers/producers are horrible for the genre if we want some innovation and cool/fun new stuff to play. And it all boils down to never taking any risks.

What's worse is that the consumers in this genre have now been programmed to accept it because it is an MMORPG. Bullshit. It's only acceptable because consumers put up with it. There is no reason in this day and age why there aren't more solid releases of MMORPG's. Protip:They are not fucking complex. The reason why there are horrid launches is due to poor management and faulty timelines along with crunched budgets and launch windows.With that said, sometimes that in of itself all boils down to min-maxing infrastructure costs while damning the player experience so they can watch the bottom line, throwing 2 years of development in a 4 month crunch window, and as a result, a frantic or non existent test schedule. Or even wiith a test window, nothing done about it because the folks that can correct and patch are pulled from one side of the building to another so they can work on 35+ content as much as possible because they are so far behind schedule.

One day, hopefully soon, a company or indie group is going to get something going and than the AAA industry will copy it.

This entire post is like preaching to the choir, because everyone here knows this. It's amazing to me the backstroking that goes on in this industry with everyone afraid to hold others in their company accountable for a shitty development cycle because they will be blackballed from the industry. What's even sadder is that outcome is an absolute 100% course of action for anyone that wants to even remotely do the right thing. Which is why I feel especially sorry for the developers underneath management for this specific title.
 
J

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
Tuco_sl said:
The two end-games that MMOs after WoW seem to lack is:
1. An endless community-driven item hunt to improve your character and increase its status and help your friends do the same.
Click to expand...
Kind of the reason I stay with FFXIV, even if I don't log in daily.

I played FFXI for about 4 years at launch, and one thing they always had was a solid community. You always knew SE would not only keep adding onto the game, but ignore the casuals and the tourists when it came to decision making ("You better put in PvP or this game will fail hard"). They kept it with highly group-heavy reqs (none of that personal dungeon bullshit) and the base loved it that way. If they run FFXIV that way, they will continue to make money (it's still a grind heavy/item hunting game overall like it's father).ES has the same type of console community as FF did as far as traditional support, but I'm not sure that necessarily translated into an MMO community.

People keep saying there's going to be thisbigresurgence because there are billions of people out there with a console (and no computer) that want to play it but I still don't see that. I see them picking up some sales but I really cannot imagine those people paying a sub to run around or even playing a traditional MMO style game. I got a feeling when they try to skulk around in a cave for the first time and find it's no real danger, they won't stick around long. After all, that was the appeal of the series, not "Gee, I wish I could play with someone to help me".

I could be wrong though; I was wrong about Flappy Bird being a hit.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,628
12,756
TheYanger_sl said:
So in other words, you've played like 1 MMO ever. This is clearly not the genre for you if you're THAT easily tired of them.
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No. What I see in that list is a person (Like me) that has seen the same damn thing in a different skin for the last 15 years. I also see the one game that changed up the experience a bit, GW2, received more of his time most likely as a result of being somewhat unique in it's content delivery (I'm sure PRX also had a play with PvP) Let's not make the mistake of blaming the MMORPG genre and "that's how it is and this is what we get". The MMORPG genre can be a million times more than what it is today, and that lack of creative effort shows immensly in a majority of the games he listed.
 
moontayle

moontayle

Golden Squire
4,302
165
Tuco_sl said:
Oh I don't agree with that. I'd agree with Kedwyn's threshold of one month. If you play medium-hardcore you can enjoy everything ESO has to offer in a month.

The two end-games that MMOs after WoW seem to lack is:
1. An endless community-driven item hunt to improve your character and increase its status and help your friends do the same.
2. An endless community-driven PVP war to constantly attempt to tear down your enemy and improve your own status.

EQ did the best with #1 of any game I've played. There was always another item to get, and there was always someone needing help with an item camp, epic weapon, coldain ring quest etc. #2 is what I'm hoping ArcheAge turns into for us.

ESO's stance on phasing, nameplates, end-game itemization (or lack thereof) and PvP pretty much worked to remove any chance of #1 and #2 happening.
Click to expand...
Excellent post. I think the two games that quantify both are EQ and DAoC respectively. Until EQ moved into the WoW "more better stats" realm you would see a wide variety of items on everybody. I played up until PoP and really, the only item that was "must have" for the longest time was your Epic. I mean, that thing lasted years. A concept that just isn't possible anymore with endless Best in Slot lists that change every four months. DAoC took a wrong turn when they made PvE important to PvP but up until then it did the best to have PvP that mattered.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
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/\ Yep. I think the ultimate reason why was because it was persistent. This instancing PvP garbage has to go. PvP in a persistent world with tangible benefits is missing. If we want Call of Duty style PvP, we will go play Call of Duty. We are losing the world and persistent feel with more and more instancing of everything in the face of accessibility. The pendulum has swung far too much to the other side of the spectrum now. It needs to even itself out.
 
F

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,233
290
Tuco_sl said:
The two end-games that MMOs after WoW seem to lack is:
1. An endless community-driven item hunt to improve your character and increase its status and help your friends do the same.
Click to expand...
Jackdaddio_sl said:
Kind of the reason I stay with FFXIV, even if I don't log in daily.
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Thought FFXIV soon as I read Tucos (excellent) post. It's simply astonishing how much has been added to the game in the 12 months since it relaunched.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Tuco_sl said:
Not sure how to quantify success, but I imagine it's more complex than simply looking at whether it made a profit within 3 years of release. ZOS basically has one of the top 5 medieval RPG franchises along with Forgotten Realms, Final Fantasy, Hyrule/Zelda, Ultima etc. Their particular genre of RPG is extremely conducive to MMOs, since the singleplayer game is very similar to an MMO. So with a decent budget they have a huge potential upside for creating an MMO cash cow. They also have the downside where if they screw it up it'll be a long time before the market is ready for another attempt. If they create a game that fails to generate a strong revenue stream that lives up to its potential you can consider it a failure even if it sold enough boxes to be a profit.
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Sure, I can agree with that. Usually you want to measure in context of the companies previous games and or franchise.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,628
12,756
Flight_sl said:
Thought FFXIV soon as I read Tucos (excellent) post. It's simply astonishing how much has been added to the game in the 12 months since it relaunched.
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It's nice don't get me wrong, but their customer support is the most God Awful excuse for customer support I have ever seen. Especially the EU/NA key mixups. If you ever have a problem with your account, you are absolutely fucked.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Tuco_sl said:
Oh I don't agree with that. I'd agree with Kedwyn's threshold of one month. If you play medium-hardcore you can enjoy everything ESO has to offer in a month.

The two end-games that MMOs after WoW seem to lack is:
1. An endless community-driven item hunt to improve your character and increase its status and help your friends do the same.
2. An endless community-driven PVP war to constantly attempt to tear down your enemy and improve your own status.

EQ did the best with #1 of any game I've played. There was always another item to get, and there was always someone needing help with an item camp, epic weapon, coldain ring quest etc. #2 is what I'm hoping ArcheAge turns into for us.

ESO's stance on phasing, nameplates, end-game itemization (or lack thereof) and PvP pretty much worked to remove any chance of #1 and #2 happening.
Click to expand...
I would have to say that Rift and TOR did #1 pretty well in the end. Rift did this, imo, right off the bat but the quality of the game was inferior from a polish point of view. TOR eventually got there, but it took them a year or two. Unfortunately most of these games need to do it right out of the game with a high quality release. Almost none do.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I never played FFXIV outside the beta for relaunch. I was(and still am) burned out of the hotbar/tab target combat. If that wasn't a gate for me, that game looked really good.
 
Cinge

Cinge

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
7,320
2,392
Tuco_sl said:
Oh I don't agree with that. I'd agree with Kedwyn's threshold of one month. If you play medium-hardcore you can enjoy everything ESO has to offer in a month.

The two end-games that MMOs after WoW seem to lack is:
1. An endless community-driven item hunt to improve your character and increase its status and help your friends do the same.
2. An endless community-driven PVP war to constantly attempt to tear down your enemy and improve your own status.

EQ did the best with #1 of any game I've played. There was always another item to get, and there was always someone needing help with an item camp, epic weapon, coldain ring quest etc. #2 is what I'm hoping ArcheAge turns into for us.

ESO's stance on phasing, nameplates, end-game itemization (or lack thereof) and PvP pretty much worked to remove any chance of #1 and #2 happening.
Click to expand...
Not sure we will ever see EQs #1 again. A combination of no instances, named/ph mechanics and longer leveling curve where items lasted for a long time helped a lot. Also not completely wiping away loot/content with every new expansion.
 
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