The Elder Scrolls Online

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Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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Why are you pivoting to EQ1? I never mentioned that. Do you have a reading comprehension problem mister?

Also, we are talking about gating. Mob scaling =/ gating.
Well if you want to invoke reading comprehension, what we are actually talking about is whatever the "magic" is that the TES single player games had that Kedwyn thinks TESO failed to copy. You are quibbling over the semantics of what the definition of "gating" is to avoid admitting I had a valid point about how TES games autoscaling everything.

Edit: corrected the acronym
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Well if you want to invoke reading comprehension, what we are actually talking about is whatever the "magic" is that the ESO single player games had that Kedwyn thinks TESO failed to copy. You are quibbling over the semantics of what the definition of "gating" is to avoid admitting I had a valid point about how ESO games autoscaling everything.
Let's cut through the bullshit. The problem you're suffering from is you don't understand the "magic" Kedwyn is talking about. And it has nothing to do with mob scaling.

Mob scaling in ES games actually works quite well without harming the Elder Scrolls experience. What does harm the ES experience is the numerous core philosophical flaws of ESO. The easiest and most noticeable one is the fake interaction between the player and the world. I'm pretty sure you've been witness to the detailed breakdowns of this I've made so I won't bother repeating it, but rest assured you may be the only person in this thread that doesn't understand it.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Well if you want to invoke reading comprehension, what we are actually talking about is whatever the "magic" is that the ESO single player games had that Kedwyn thinks TESO failed to copy. You are quibbling over the semantics of what the definition of "gating" is to avoid admitting I had a valid point about how ESO games autoscaling everything.
The magic being referred to is that EQ, being one of the 1st true first person MMORPG in 1999, had a lot of danger, exploration, no hand holding, harsh death penalty, community building based on forced grouping/spell mechanics, an economy built on some class abilities (Druid/Wizard Group gates to ease travel, requiring another casting class to bind you to a different location after you died (You had to be grouped with a caster to do this) combined with a very long leveling curve so you would tend to stay in areas for weeks at a time, getting to know other people playing as you would tend to group with a lot of the same people.

That magic varies between EQ / Insert first MMORPG played. For some it was DAOC, for some it was SWG, for others it was WoW. The MMORPG people usually remember the longest and have most fondest memories of is the first MMORPG they played.

With that said, you had to be a certain level to succeed in a zone, but travelling the world and going through all of it to get to your destination was part of the fun. Like running from Freeport to Qeynos because you had a buddy over there. Seeing the bridge at North Karana for the first time and learning it was a safe area. Having to use the sewers in Freeport because you were a Dark Elf and would be insta-killed on site because the guards hated you. The reputation system, although primitive, allowed you to change that if you wanted too by killing your own guards in Neriak. Which a lot did because Sergeant Slate would eat you alive in East Commons. Being able to see at night (Humans were blind as a bat), Infravision gave a red hue around everything which helped you see, and Ultravision for some races gave you the ability to see everything. But honestly if you were human in vanilla, you couldn't see jack shit. The entire world has never been copied to that point in the history of the genre. The questing system was not used for leveling, and a lot of the times you had no idea who had a quest anyway. Or, something as simple as Invisbility to Undead being cast on you and you would hope it wouldn't break as you are trying to get to your group in the basement of unrest - that sort of shit added to the fear/excitement. You knew bad players, unreputable players, and good players. I could go on and on here but I think you should get the point now. And Day/Night cycles were common and weather was already added in - something you hardly ever see anymore. Which gives some games another fakeness to them.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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Let's cut through the bullshit. The problem you're suffering from is you don't understand the "magic" Kedwyn is talking about. And it has nothing to do with mob scaling.

Mob scaling in ES games actually works quite well without harming the Elder Scrolls experience. What does harm the ES experience is the numerous core philosophical flaws of ESO. The easiest and most noticeable one is the fake interaction between the player and the world. I'm pretty sure you've been witness to the detailed breakdowns of this I've made so I won't bother repeating it, but rest assured you may be the only person in this thread that doesn't understand it.
If you know what this "magic" is that Kedwyn is referring to that you want to pretend I don't understand then feel free to explain what you think it is.

You will also have to explain what you mean by "fake interaction". There are numerous quests in TESO that change the environment via phasing after you complete parts of the quest.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
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The magic being referred to is that EQ, being one of the 1st true first person MMORPG in 1999, had a lot of danger, exploration, no hand holding, harsh death penalty, community building based on forced grouping/spell mechanics, an economy built on some class abilities (Druid/Wizard Group gates to ease travel, requiring another casting class to bind you to a different location after you died (You had to be grouped with a caster to do this) combined with a very long leveling curve so you would tend to stay in areas for weeks at a time, getting to know other people playing as you would tend to group with a lot of the same people.

That magic varies between EQ / Insert first MMORPG played. For some it was DAOC, for some it was SWG, for others it was WoW. The MMORPG people usually remember the longest and have most fondest memories of is the first MMORPG they played.

With that said, you had to be a certain level to succeed in a zone, but travelling the world and going through all of it to get to your destination was part of the fun. Like running from Freeport to Qeynos because you had a buddy over there. Seeing the bridge at North Karana for the first time and learning it was a safe area. Having to use the sewers in Freeport because you were a Dark Elf and would be insta-killed on site because the guards hated you. The reputation system, although primitive, allowed you to change that if you wanted too by killing your own guards in Neriak. Which a lot did because Sergeant Slate would eat you alive in East Commons. Being able to see at night (Humans were blind as a bat), Infravision gave a red hue around everything which helped you see, and Ultravision for some races gave you the ability to see everything. But honestly if you were human in vanilla, you couldn't see jack shit. The entire world has never been copied to that point in the history of the genre. The questing system was not used for leveling, and a lot of the times you had no idea who had a quest anyway. Or, something as simple as Invisbility to Undead being cast on you and you would hope it wouldn't break as you are trying to get to your group in the basement of unrest - that sort of shit added to the fear/excitement. You knew bad players, unreputable players, and good players. I could go on and on here but I think you should get the point now. And Day/Night cycles were common and weather was already added in - something you hardly ever see anymore. Which gives some games another fakeness to them.
I played EQ1 starting on Day 1 for 6 years. Thanks for a reminder of what made that game memorable. Were you expecting TESO to try and replicate the EQ1 gameplay experience?

PS Kedwyn is referring to the "magic" of TES single player games, not EQ1.

Edit: fixed an acronym
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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Are you afraid to answer the question about auto scaling? EQ1 was de facto gated. You could not progress to higher level zones without gaining levels. I find it humorous that you and a few others can't seem to acknowledge that.
This statement is incorrect. You could circumvent your 'defacto gating' of content (levels) using social tools.

You could go anywhere you wanted in EQ at any level you desired, as long as you had bros looking out for you.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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This statement is incorrect. You could circumvent your 'defacto gating' of levels (levels) using social tools.

You could go anywhere you wanted in EQ at any level you desired, as long as you had bros looking out for you.
I operate under the assumption that a group of players trying to tackle challenging PVE content only invite other players who can help contribute. I do admit your example of getting protected by higher level players without actually contributing anything yourself was possible in EQ1. You certainly saw it happening with guilds trying to gear up lower level twinks.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Well if you want to invoke reading comprehension, what we are actually talking about is whatever the "magic" is that the ESO single player games had that Kedwyn thinks TESO failed to copy. You are quibbling over the semantics of what the definition of "gating" is to avoid admitting I had a valid point about how ESO games autoscaling everything.
My brother loves all the Elder Scrolls games, he even likes TESO. For him, what he liked about the single player games is the mods. He didn't care much for Skyrim, too easy he said. So he loaded some mod that made it play like Morrowind and then he could get into it.

He's not much of a mmo player, GW1 was his only mmo before TESO. I think he likes TESO because it reminds him of the single player games somehow (don't ask my why, I can't figure it out). I got him to play GW2, he likes it but he plays TESO more.

Personally, I could never play the Elder Scrolls single player games for long. TESO is ok, nothing spectacular. Looks very good on a 3 monitor setup though, so that helps.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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I played EQ1 starting on Day 1 for 6 years. Thanks for a reminder of what made that game memorable. Were you expecting TESO to try and replicate the EQ1 gameplay experience?

PS Kedwyn is referring to the "magic" of ESO single player games, not EQ1.
When you say ESO I think Elder Scrolls Online, because that is the acronym. ES is Elder Scrolls. Where does your O come from when acronyming Elder Scrolls single player games?
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
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It doesn't matter since scaling/gating content isn't the point, but in EQVanilla didn't you have to be level 46 to enter the Plane of Hate and Fear?

Phasing is probably the most concrete evidence the interaction is fake and meaningless.

I found the 'magic' in TES franchise and games like EQ and even Vanguard being that they presented a world to explore and conquer. Increasingly, including my experiences with TESO, it felt like it was presenting a leveling path with a world painted on the areas as background. TES and EQ did it slightly differently and to different levels, but in both the world felt meaningful and as if it existed outside of my own existence, in a sense. You came upon a village or dungeon in TES or EQ and it felt like that was simply where NPCs lived. It felt like you were invading and disrupting their lives.

In TESO it felt like the quest areas and dungeons had been built, almost by the inhabitants, to provide a player experience and when you got near some directly yelled "the adventurers are here, places everyone, it's showtime!"
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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When you say ESO I think Elder Scrolls Online, because that is the acronym. ES is Elder Scrolls. Where does your O come from when acronyming Elder Scrolls single player games?
You are correct that is an error on my part. I should have used TES or ES to refer to the single player games. I went back and corrected the acronym in the posts where I made the error.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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Phasing is probably the most concrete evidence the interaction is fake and meaningless.

I found the 'magic' in TES franchise and games like EQ and even Vanguard being that they presented a world to explore and conquer. Increasingly, including my experiences with TESO, it felt like it was presenting a leveling path with a world painted on the areas as background. TES and EQ did it slightly differently and to different levels, but in both the world felt meaningful and as if it existed outside of my own existence, in a sense. You came upon a village or dungeon in TES or EQ and it felt like that was simply where NPCs lived. It felt like you were invading and disrupting their lives.

In TESO it felt like the quest areas and dungeons had been built, almost by the inhabitants, to provide a player experience and when you got near some directly yelled "the adventurers are here, places everyone, it's showtime!"
Here is where you lost me. Phasing technology AFAIK was first introduced by WoW as a storytelling mechanic to give the individual player a sense that their PVE interactions were meaningful and had an impact on the game world. "Fake" and "meaningless" are not two terms I would even associate with phasing tech.
 

popsicledeath

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Here is where you lost me. Phasing technology AFAIK was first introduced by WoW as a storytelling mechanic to give the individual player a sense that their PVE interactions were meaningful and had an impact on the game world. "Fake" and "meaningless" are not two terms I would even associate with phasing tech.
That's the point, though. In EQ, if you went to a zone and someone else was killing something somewhere, that's what was happening. In TES if you went to a village and killed something, that's what happened. With phasing, you go to an area and kill something, and that's what you're doing by yourself since there are different aspects of the world and you aren't really acting and interacting in the same one as others. Thus, it feels like the world is just a painted backdrop for your own single player game.

I'm not saying EQ or TES have always had great interaction with other players or the world, but it was at least what it was, not some weird system where you did something that supposedly changed your version of the world for yourself but the greater world still existed as if you didn't exist and was there for each other player to experience their own version of it.

Like I said, they each took their own approach (and other games took others) but there was a feeling of the world being something you existed in and interacted with. In TESO you interact with personalized game mechanics, and it's weird and feels fake. And I never experienced it in WoW, but it sounded like a shit mechanic to me catering to the types of gamers (and people) I dislike.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
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Here is where you lost me. Phasing technology AFAIK was first introduced by WoW as a storytelling mechanic to give the individual player a sense that their PVE interactions were meaningful and had an impact on the game world. "Fake" and "meaningless" are not two terms I would even associate with phasing tech.
Well, I would say that EQ did this first with the Ring of Coldain questline in the Velious expansion when someone would attempt the quest and either Thurgadin or Kael would copy over a completely alternate data set which would stay active for two hours as a result of the victor of the war.
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
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They weren't in at release, and it was some time after those zones were added that they restricted the level to 46+ iirc.

EQ 1.0 is the only true EQ.

4lyfe
Back in the day, Plane of Fear would be swarmed with level 1 ogres looking for welfare loot before the planes were level-restricted.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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If you know what this "magic" is that Kedwyn is referring to that you want to pretend I don't understand then feel free to explain what you think it is.

You will also have to explain what you mean by "fake interaction". There are numerous quests in TESO that change the environment via phasing after you complete parts of the quest.
Phasing is fake interaction. It's an awful game mechanic that is used to pretend player are interacting with their environment but they're really not. It's also a tremendous interruption to cooperative play.
 

Abefroman

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It's also a tremendous interruption to cooperative play.
Phasing isn't so bad for something like telling a part of a story, but for open world and entire areas it is fucking awful for the reason you stated. I found grouping in ESO the most pain in the ass of any MMO ever, wildstar was a close second.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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Phasing is fake interaction. It's an awful game mechanic that is used to pretend player are interacting with their environment but they're really not. It's also a tremendous interruption to cooperative play.
It's awful in your opinion. As someone who actually reads all the quest texts, watches all the cutscenes, and reads all the lorebooks, phasing done correctly helps to add immersion to any game where it's used. If I had to bet you a six pack of beer, I bet the hardcore TES fans who believe the lore/story of the single player games is a major part of the "magic" wholeheartedly approve of the concept of phasing.

I used to get annoyed in SWTOR when you fought your way thru a bunch of trash mobs, enter your story instance, save the planet/defeat the bad guy, and then when you left the story instance all the trash mobs have respawned and absolutely nothing has changed in the environment. I much prefer how games like WoW, TESO and Wildstar change the environment around you based on what stage of the quest you were in.

FYI there is absolutely no interruption to cooperative play anymore with phasing in TESO. If group members are in separate phases of a quest, everyone is automatically put into the group leader's phase. Very simple for anyone who has already completed a quest to go back and help others complete it. All you have to do is make whoever needs help the group leader.
 

Quaid

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We all know this game fucking blows and is a shadow of what an Elder Scrolls game should be...

But for the love of fuck, can we stop rehashing the same shit we talked about last year, and leave the thread for people who are actually playing the game? (Me)