The Elder Scrolls Online

Blackwulf_sl said:

This sums up how I feel at this point. Yeah, I'm a little skeptical based on what has been shown, but I also think that there's too much money, and too many experienced people involved for this not to be a LOT further along than Utnayan's tinfoil hat theories would suggest. Only time will tell.

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Between your shilling and Ut's incessant ranting the reality is that the truth about TESO lies somewhere in between. The question is going to be, should you reward mediocrity because of current lack of options and you're a fan of both the genre and the IP or should you have higher expectations for it?

pyksel_sl said:

Between your shilling and Ut's incessant ranting the reality is that the truth about TESO lies somewhere in between. The question is going to be, should you reward mediocrity because of current lack of options and you're a fan of both the genre and the IP or should you have higher expectations for it?

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Must... resist... temptatio... OOH LOOK! A new shiney! Where is my credit card? == The life of a mmo gamer.

Grim1_sl said:

Must... resist... temptatio... OOH LOOK! A new shiney! Where is my credit card? == The life of a mmo gamer.

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This would be ok if the shine stayed around for awhile and the level of polish and quality underneath was worth it. Then again, how does one measure "worth" in this space? Play Defiance for 2 weeks, played WAR for a year, played GW2 for several months...would you call any of those a success? I might but not all of them.

It's so subjective that it's often moot to even argue about it but as long as the genre stays as it is there's not much we can do.

Dom_sl said:

I wouldn't hold your breath. Gaming has shown over the decades that genres are heavily front-loaded when it comes to things worthy of praise. The industry takes those unique genius ideas that form a game genre and rapes them to the point of inbred stagnancy. Eventually someone comes along and creates something new and unique and the cycle just repeats. If we ever see a new MMO worth a damn it will be so unlike anything we've ever seen that it won't even fit within our general definition of an MMO. Shitty part being that it will feel so unlike what we thought we wanted that we bitter vets will hate it.

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Right, hopefully we'll get that new and unique something soon. The cycle is just fine because for a large portion of it you get pretty decent refinement out of it (see: WOW). I just hope we won't be seeing many MMORPGs that are split between leveling and "elder game" stuff. No more levels and quests and static mob spawn content with scripted encounters. Hopefully this will go away in 5-8 years or so.

pyksel_sl said:

This would be ok if the shine stayed around for awhile and the level of polish and quality underneath was worth it. Then again, how does one measure "worth" in this space? Play Defiance for 2 weeks, played WAR for a year, played GW2 for several months...would you call any of those a success? I might but not all of them.

It's so subjective that it's often moot to even argue about it but as long as the genre stays as it is there's not much we can do.

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In the era of F2P and B2P games, the idea of playing an MMO for longer than 1-2 months is oldhat. Especially since there are so many options out there.

Draegan_sl said:

Right, hopefully we'll get that new and unique something soon. The cycle is just fine because for a large portion of it you get pretty decent refinement out of it (see: WOW). I just hope we won't be seeing many MMORPGs that are split between leveling and "elder game" stuff. No more levels and quests and static mob spawn content with scripted encounters. Hopefully this will go away in 5-8 years or so.

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I really hate to bring it up in this thread for various reasons (shilling, persons involved, previous experiences) but this is why I backed Camelot Unchained because there's enough being done on it that it at the very least appears new and unique that I can't help but sigh a small breath of relief. If Mark had gone the traditional route that other devs are going on this I guarantee I wouldn't be as interested in it. That doesn't mean it will be great nor does that guarantee failure but I believe using the kickstarter method coupled with the transparency of the project it does help set the tone for future mmo's. I know folks like Ut and Denaut would come in here and state why it's such a bad route to go but I really believe it's the right one despite how unrefined the process is at this point. I look at it as potential and if it is somewhat successful, imagine what it can do for respected and established developers.

As far as the era of F2P and B2P games, I really don't care for the disposable feel of pick a game up, playing it for a couple months and then putting it down. Does that mean I am in the minority?

pyksel_sl said:

This would be ok if the shine stayed around for awhile and the level of polish and quality underneath was worth it. Then again, how does one measure "worth" in this space? Play Defiance for 2 weeks, played WAR for a year, played GW2 for several months...would you call any of those a success? I might but not all of them.

It's so subjective that it's often moot to even argue about it but as long as the genre stays as it is there's not much we can do.

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Star Trek Online is the only mmo I ever felt ripped off by. And supposedly even it's better now.

It is very probable that I will buy TESO, haven't seen any reason not to yet. New mmo releases and leveling up with masses of people around is fun. I'll explore the game and get at least one toon to max level. That will probably take a month. That is a lot more bang for the buck than a single player game. So if I leave after that then it will be money well spent and a success for me. Anything after that is gravy.

My viewpoint on mmos has changed. I don't care if they occupy me for years anymore, and don't expect them too. I think of them more like movies. Go see the latest blockbuster, have fun for a little while, and then wait for the next one.

Utnayan_sl said:

Look, you are a shill. Everyone knows that. And as Pyksel said, I am an incessant ranter. (At least I can admit it)

But I am wondering how when you talk about "too many experienced people" and "there's too much money", have you followed any development of these games other than DAOC since 2001? Too much money and too much experience (relic designers) have sunk most of the MMORPG launches in the last decade.

Do you think we are due for a decent one at this point given all cirumstances are exactly the same?

It's not tinfoil hat. It's common fucking sense.

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Get your terminology right, bro. I'm afanboy, not a shill. I don't have a horse in this race; I'm a middle school teacher. You aren't an incessant ranter, you are alunatic.

pyksel_sl said:

but this is why I backed Camelot Unchained because there's enough being done on it that it at the very least appears new and unique that I can't help but sigh a small breath of relief.

As far as the era of F2P and B2P games, I really don't care for the disposable feel of pick a game up, playing it for a couple months and then putting it down. Does that mean I am in the minority?

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My first point of contention is that Mark Jacobs design "theories" seem to be taking all old ideas and mashing them together including the mistakes. If you're backing it look for a unique game, that's totally wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself. However if you're backing it because you love RvR, Mark Jacobs, want DAOC2, want really old school rulesets then your money was well spent. There is absolutely nothing new or fresh with CU's design.

The second point: I don't know if you're in the minority, but this is how games are being built. The majority of players move from game to game so they have to cater to people that are doing drive bys (cash shops). Those game still allow you to play for years if you want, but they have to be design to attract transient gamers. Whether the root of this is that gamers never stay still and with all the options of MMORPGs on the market it's tough to capture a single crowd, OR it's because most games are crap and need to make as much money in 1-2 months before you get fed up and leave.

Probably a little bit of both.

Utnayan_sl said:

Well, you will be happy to know the lead systems designer for STO is now the lead game designer on TESO.

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Doesn't that just make you giggle?

Utnayan_sl said:

Well, you will be happy to know the lead systems designer for STO is now the lead game designer on TESO.

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Doesn't bother me in the least. Mmo's are a team effort. And much like sports teams, it is how the team works together that is important. Individual talent helps, but one person is not the sole cause of success or failure.

Draegan_sl said:

My first point of contention is that Mark Jacobs design "theories" seem to be taking all old ideas and mashing them together including the mistakes. If you're backing it look for a unique game, that's totally wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself. However if you're backing it because you love RvR, Mark Jacobs, want DAOC2, want really old school rulesets then your money was well spent. There is absolutely nothing new or fresh with CU's design.

The second point: I don't know if you're in the minority, but this is how games are being built. The majority of players move from game to game so they have to cater to people that are doing drive bys (cash shops). Those game still allow you to play for years if you want, but they have to be design to attract transient gamers. Whether the root of this is that gamers never stay still and with all the options of MMORPGs on the market it's tough to capture a single crowd, OR it's because most games are crap and need to make as much money in 1-2 months before you get fed up and leave.

Probably a little bit of both.

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I should have made myself clear and I apologize for that but no I am not looking for a unique game, I am looking for a unique experience with the the very things you mentioned: RvR, DAOC2, old school rulesets, etc. I really couldn't care that it's Mark Jacobs. What I meant was that the approach to the development is new and more importantly different than what we have seen so far today.

Utnayan_sl said:

Well, you will be happy to know the lead systems designer for STO is now the lead game designer on TESO.

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Haha.. who is that? Paul Sage?

Draegan_sl said:

Doesn't that just make you giggle?

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Only people who are rooting for failure are giggling. Why you want this to fail so much says more about you than TESO.

Draegan_sl said:

Doesn't that just make you giggle?

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Yes, like a little girl. No wait- I mean vomit, like a drunken sailor.