The Moral Superiority Thread: How much better are Vegans?

hodj · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
You're an idiot.

You're the one citing Harvard blogs as evidence and then failing to justify claims like

nevergone said:
I said the average person doesn't get the necessary micronutrients from their average diet.

So "No, U R FGT!"

Citation fucking required. Most people get perfectly acceptable nutrition in 1st and 2nd world countries. Multivitamins ain't helping Jaquan in Kenya's bush, dipshit.

This idea of "not getting enough necessary micronutrients" is no more valid than gluten sensitivities and de-toxifying your body.

Its all pseudo science garbage.

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

ZyyzYzzy said:
That is not a Scientific peer reviewed paper.

Hurr durr...reading is hard huh?

The Physicians' Health Study II is the best study completed so far. It was the first and only large-scale randomized clinical trial to test a commonly taken multivitamin like the ones most people take, containing the daily requirements of 31 vitamins and minerals essential for good health.

What does the evidence say?
Physicians' Health Study II

Researchers looked at the effect of long-term multivitamin use in healthy men on various aspects of health. Here is what they found:

Cancer: Men were 8% less likely to be diagnosed with cancer. The protective effect was greatest in men with a history of cancer.

Vision: Lower risk of developing cataracts.

Cardiovascular disease: No protection against heart attacks, strokes, or death from cardiovascular disease.

Brain: No protection against declining memory or mental skills.

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

ZyyzYzzy said:
Keep telling us how much better you are tha us.

Because I eat rice and beans. Riiiight.

TJT · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
You're an idiot. I said the average person doesn't get the necessary micronutrients from their average diet.
People who have the desire to learn how to nourish themselves, do. That is not the average person, however.

I literally have an entire cupboard full of rice and beans, by the way. Nutritional yeast too, for B12.
Fuck your dick.

I too have rice and beans in my house. Check your privilege.

hodj · Sep 16, 2016

PRIOR RESULTS: The final results of the recently completed Physicians' Health Study I (PHS I), a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in 22,071 healthy US male physicians, indicated that beta-carotene supplementation (50 mg on alternate days) had no significant benefit or harm on cancer or CVD during more than 12 years of treatment and follow-up. In regards to cancer, there were possible benefits on total and prostate cancer in those with low baseline levels assigned to beta-carotene, a finding compatible with the Chinese Cancer Prevention Study for combined treatment with beta-carotene, vitamin E, and selenium in a poorly nourished population. Further, with respect to CVD, there were apparent benefits of beta-carotene supplementation on subsequent vascular events among a small subgroup of 333 men with prior angina or revascularization. The currently available data from randomized trials of primary prevention are sparse and inconsistent for vitamin E and non-existent for vitamin C and multivitamins. For eye diseases, namely cataract and age-related macular degeneration, there are no completed large-scale randomized trials of antioxidant vitamins.

The actual findings of the study.

Aldarion · Sep 16, 2016

It is *possible* to have a healthy vegan diet. Its not possible to have a vegan diet thats better than a optimum non-vegan diet.

But thats all hypothetical because actual vegans on planet earth (at least in the US) have terrible diets. None of them get enough protein (0.35 g / kg body weight of digestible protein, which is only ~70% for plant proteins), few of them balance their proteins properly (grain + legume) in part because so many of them also think gluten is bad (its not), and almost all of them have micronutrient deficiencies especially B vitamins and iron.

Just eat animals and animal products. Theyre delicious and theres no objective reason to avoid them, just vague fuzzy headed feeling based reasons.

ZyyzYzzy · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
Hurr durr...reading is hard huh?

Again that is not a peer reviewed scientific paper. What are the statistics of the cohorts studied? I.e. other habits in addition to taking a multivitamin? My guess men who take them are probably more likely to exercise

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

jihodj said:
"No, U R FGT!"

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/balanced-diet-isnt-enough
Chances are, you’ve got a deficiency

Seventy diets were computer analyzed from the menu of athletes or sedentary subjects seeking to improve the quality of micronutrient intake from food choices. All of these dietary analyses fell short of the recommended 100% RDA micronutrient level from food alone.

hodj · Sep 16, 2016

ZyyzYzzy said:
Again that is not a peer reviewed scientific paper. What are the statistics of the cohorts studied? I.e. other habits in addition to taking a multivitamin? My guess men who take them are probably more likely to exercise

Especially since it was from 15,000 doctors.

The information is there, its just not a very good study, proves very little to nothing, shows very few to any benefits, except in patients who already suffered from illnesses like prostate cancer in the past, etc.

Its just garbage, basically.

Its the weakest possible justification in terms of potential health benefits one can find. Its completely useless.

ZyyzYzzy · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
Chances are, you’ve got a deficiency

Do those deficiencies actually have adverse physiological effects in the long term?

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

Aldarion said:
None of them get enough protein (0.35 g / kg body weight of digestible protein, which is only ~70% for plant proteins), few of them balance their proteins properly (grain + legume) in part because so many of them also think gluten is bad (its not), and almost all of them have micronutrient deficiencies especially B vitamins and iron.

You are very, very wrong.

hodj · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
Chances are, you’ve got a deficiency

This is a shitty blog.

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

ZyyzYzzy said:
Do those deficiencies actually have adverse physiological effects in the long term?

Who knows?
It's the non-vegans saying vegans are dying because they're deficient in essential nutrients. They're not.
My argument was that MOST people are deficient.

Kiroy · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
Hurr durr...reading is hard huh?

Get outa here with that shit from February 2000 you disingenuous fuck.

Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements | Annals of Internal Medicine

In conclusion, β-carotene, vitamin E, and possibly high doses of vitamin A supplements are harmful. Other antioxidants, folic acid and B vitamins, and multivitamin and mineral supplements are ineffective for preventing mortality or morbidity due to major chronic diseases. Although available evidence does not rule out small benefits or harms or large benefits or harms in a small subgroup of the population, we believe that the case is closed— supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful. These vitamins should not be used for chronic disease prevention. Enough is enough.

Aldarion · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
You are very, very wrong.

One of us agrees with the Nutritional Biochemistry textbook. One of us does not. One of us is about to go eat a delicious and nutritionally balanced lunch. One of us will eat gluten free free range bean sprouts or some shit. I'll leave you to figure out which is which.

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

Kiroy said:
Get outa here with that shit from February 2000 you disingenuous fuck.

Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements | Annals of Internal Medicine

Again, I wasn't the person saying vegans need to take supplements to survive.
I was merely saying that if that's going to be the argument, then MOST people should be taking supplements if we're trying to prevent micronutrient deficiencies.

nevergone · Sep 16, 2016

Aldarion said:
One of us agrees with the Nutritional Biochemistry textbook. One of us does not. One of us is about to go eat a delicious and nutritionally balanced lunch. One of us will eat gluten free free range bean sprouts or some shit. I'll leave you to figure out which is which.

Again, you're a fucking idiot. And it's beans, rice, and spinach.

ZyyzYzzy · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
Again, I wasn't the person saying vegans need to take supplements to survive.
I was merely saying that if that's going to be the argument, then MOST people should be taking supplements if we're trying to prevent micronutrient deficiencies.

You said everyone needs to take a multivitamin. Peer reviewed palaers were linked that refute this.

TJT · Sep 16, 2016

Uh oh!

Nevergone is losing his previously smug facade and the salt is coming out.

ZyyzYzzy · Sep 16, 2016

nevergone said:
Pretty much everyone should take a multivitamin, just saying.

Quoted for posterity

The Moral Superiority Thread: How much better are Vegans?

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