The NSA watches you poop.

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chaos

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Let me sum up those links for you: Members of Congress claim they were unaware of unpopular measure. Some of whom even voted to give this authority to the government.

So trust no one, except Congressmen, they are good guys and have our best interests at heart. And they would certainly never tell a self-serving lie or try to cover up their own incompetence.
 

fanaskin

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voting for the authority is a false premise, the patriot act was radically interpreted, there is no provisions in the patriots act authorizing anything for the NSA it was all derived from implied powers.

Infact one of the committee members who drafted the patriot act made a rousing speech in congress during the committee hearings on the NSA saying that the laws that where voted in didn't authorize any of this NSA stuff, that is what convinced many of the 205 to try and defund this.

and if it wasn't for political arm twisting by Obama and Pelosi like threatening to fire people from committees or withdraw support for their campaigns there would have been enough people to pass the bill.



Plus look at some of those links, there are documents there proving their assertations, it's not just " a congressman said" they provide links to the requests and the responses given.
 

chaos

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fanaskin, I used to think you were retarded. Like seriously mentally deficient. In a lot of ways you have shown me I was wrong. But come the fuck on.
 

fanaskin

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You can't say they "voted for it" because the patriot act was radically interpreted to give all kinds of powers that weren't written into the patriot act, a lot of it is implied powers the FISA court ok'd in SECRET from executive branch lawyers.


I understand what you are saying congress has a reason to lie and maybe some are, But I honestly don't think they all knew there's too many signs that show otherwise.

plus look at how many democrats voted to defund NSA spying, I mean that was almost a revolt of the democrats right there, it took pelosi and obama armtwisting to prevent the defund vote from going through
 

fanaskin

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Democratic establishment unmasked: prime defenders of NSA bulk spying
NYT: "The Obama administration made common cause with the House Republican leadership"


Perhaps the most amazing moment came when GOP Rep. James Sensenbrenner - the prime author of the Patriot Act back in 2001 and a long-time defender of War on Terror policies under both Bush and Obama - stood up to say that the NSA's domestic bulk spying far exceeds the bounds of the law he wrote as well as his belief in the proper limits of domestic surveillance, and announced his support for Amash/Conyers.
 

fanaskin

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I believe this was the part that was said to have convinced many of the democrats who where apart of the 205 against vote to vote that way. This is THE MAIN AUTHOR OF THE PATRIOT ACT.

 

chaos

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You can't say they "voted for it" because the patriot act was radically interpreted to give all kinds of powers that weren't written into the patriot act, a lot of it is implied powers the FISA court ok'd in SECRET from executive branch lawyers.


I understand what you are saying congress has a reason to lie and maybe some are, But I honestly don't think they all knew there's too many signs that show otherwise.

plus look at how many democrats voted to defund NSA spying, I mean that was almost a revolt of the democrats right there, it took pelosi and obama armtwisting to prevent the defund vote from going through
You see a revolt, I see stagecraft. At the end of the day the law is in place and Congress apparently gives zero fucks. They're not talking about it, the news is talking about dumb shit.

And I can say they voted for it. I'm not going to give them a pass for being too stupid to see what everyone was screaming about at the time. Because that is the best case scenario. Either they are stupid or dishonest, pick your poison. The laws they voted for and now decry (because it is popular to do so) gave unprecedented powers to the executive over citizens. They knew what they were doing and the potential of that.
 

khalid

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So you're ok with a couple of thousand phone records being recorded, but just not a couple hundred million ? Where is the number you find acceptable ? Why is scale in itself a problem ? If it violates the 4th in regards to one person, then it should stop there. Or are we advancing some kind of "microscopic violation" theory where it isn't a real violation until we violate the rights of, not 1 person, but millions of peoples' rights. Or, maybe it's just not a violation.
Whoa there. You are the one saying since it was legal for a small case, it should be legal for all. I'm saying that just because some judge felt it was alright for a small group of people, that doesn't mean it should be legal for all.

Also yes, sometimes you have to do things like broad surveillance to get some data. However, it should be targetted as much as possible. If the tap on the payphones was as targetted as it could be to do surveillance on some people, perhaps that is fine, but the argument should be made in front of a judge. We shouldn't start by having the broadest possible surveillance and then letting someone look at it if they get a judge to agree.
 

fanaskin

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You see a revolt, I see stagecraft. At the end of the day the law is in place and Congress apparently gives zero fucks. They're not talking about it, the news is talking about dumb shit.

And I can say they voted for it. I'm not going to give them a pass for being too stupid to see what everyone was screaming about at the time. Because that is the best case scenario. Either they are stupid or dishonest, pick your poison. The laws they voted for and now decry (because it is popular to do so) gave unprecedented powers to the executive over citizens. They knew what they were doing and the potential of that.
Then why did it require political arm twisting to prevent the vote from passing? pelosi and obama were telling people they would lose democratic support for re election and throwing them off committee seats from what I heard.

and that's not true that they voted for nsa spying the congress specifically defunded the "total information awareness program" when it was revealed which is basically what this program is the result of, Bush had to black budget it into existence.

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"On August 2, 2002, Dr. Poindexter gave a speech at DARPAtech 2002 entitled "Overview of the Information Awareness Office"[7] in which he described the TIA program.

In addition to the program itself, the involvement of Poindexter as director of the IAO also raised concerns among some, since he had been earlier convicted of lying to Congress and altering and destroying documents pertaining to the Iran-Contra Affair, although those convictions were later overturned on the grounds that the testimony used against him was protected.
On January 16, 2003, Senator Russ Feingold introduced legislation to suspend the activity of the IAO and the Total Information Awareness program pending a Congressional review of privacy issues involved.[8] A similar measure introduced by Senator Ron Wyden would have prohibited the IAO from operating within the United States unless specifically authorized to do so by Congress, and would have shut the IAO down entirely 60 days after passage unless either the Pentagon prepared a report to Congress assessing the impact of IAO activities on individual privacy and civil liberties or the President certified the program's research as vital to national security interests. In February 2003, Congress passed legislation suspending activities of the IAO pending a Congressional report of the office's activities (Consolidated Appropriations Resolution, 2003, No.108-7, Division M, ?111(b) [signed Feb. 20, 2003]).

In response to this legislation, DARPA provided Congress on May 20, 2003 with a report on its activities.[9] In this report, IAO changed the name of the program to the Terrorism Information Awareness Program and emphasized that the program was not designed to compile dossiers on US citizens, but rather to research and develop the tools that would allow authorized agencies to gather information on terrorist networks. Despite the name change and these assurances, the critics continued to see the system as prone to potential misuse or abuse.
As a result House and Senate negotiators moved to prohibit further funding for the TIA program by adding provisions to the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2004[10] (signed into law by President Bush on October 1, 2003). Further, the Joint Explanatory Statement included in the conference committee report specifically directed that the IAO as program manager for TIA be terminated immediately"
 
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Whoa there. You are the one saying since it was legal for a small case, it should be legal for all. I'm saying that just because some judge felt it was alright for a small group of people, that doesn't mean it should be legal for all.

Also yes, sometimes you have to do things like broad surveillance to get some data. However, it should be targetted as much as possible. If the tap on the payphones was as targetted as it could be to do surveillance on some people, perhaps that is fine, but the argument should be made in front of a judge. We shouldn't start by having the broadest possible surveillance and then letting someone look at it if they get a judge to agree.
Well, now the argument isn't just being made in front of judges, it's made in front of the people. This goes up for renewal in 2015. We'll see what happens then.
 

Beef Supreme_sl

shitlord
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Why would the government turn off their golden goose?

That would be like the military-industrial complex letting wars happen "organically" instead of perpetuating them for their own financial benefit.

Also, Sco'bama gets weak marks for essentially telling the American consumers that he is spearheading what is essentially a fact-finding mission; he wants the public to know that their rights aren't being violated. Fact-finding? They made this monster, they fucking well know what it does, who has access to it, etc. He just needs some time to create a plausible cover for WHY they are doing aside from the herp derp turrurism trope he keeps shoving down everyone's throat. If he's not careful (I use "he" to mean both Sco'bama and "the powers that be") the American McCitizens will lose their fear of the terrorists. You can only cry wolf so many times before people are desensitized by it.
 
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Why would the government turn off their golden goose?

That would be like the military-industrial complex letting wars happen "organically" instead of perpetuating them for their own financial benefit.

Also, Sco'bama gets weak marks for essentially telling the American consumers that he is spearheading what is essentially a fact-finding mission; he wants the public to know that their rights aren't being violated. Fact-finding? They made this monster, they fucking well know what it does, who has access to it, etc. He just needs some time to create a plausible cover for WHY they are doing aside from the herp derp turrurism trope he keeps shoving down everyone's throat. If he's not careful (I use "he" to mean both Sco'bama and "the powers that be") the American McCitizens will lose their fear of the terrorists. You can only cry wolf so many times before people are desensitized by it.
The government actually almost turned off the golden goose a month ago by de-funding section 215. I mean, the American public's attention span is pretty short, but if people can keep making a stink about this for another year and a half, it's certainly possible. But by then the headlines will probably be about how North West is being joined by brother Wild West.
 

Beef Supreme_sl

shitlord
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The government actually almost turned off the golden goose a month ago by de-funding section 215. I mean, the American public's attention span is pretty short, but if people can keep making a stink about this for another year and a half, it's certainly possible. But by then the headlines will probably be about how North West is being joined by brother Wild West.
That knee jerk bullshit never had a chance to pass. The NSA can blackmail whoever it wants, no way they would let themselves get defunded.
 

chaos

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Then why did it require political arm twisting to prevent the vote from passing? pelosi and obama were telling people they would lose democratic support for re election and throwing them off committee seats from what I heard.
Again, trust no one except these guys. They are telling the truth and in no way self-interested. But everyone else is lying.
 

fanaskin

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Define "everyone else" is lying?

the people on the intelligence committee, the people from the NSA and people from obama and bush's executive office are lying. In other words all the people who might be liable if this was ever deemed criminal in any way are lying.

these are the people caught out right lying about things like only "meta data"

What you're saying is like a broad statement based on gut feeling it's not really what i'd call hard evidence that every congressman and senator knew exactly what was going on in the NSA.

I mean it is plausable but it's also a very pessimistic viewpoint as well.
 

fanaskin

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Exclusive- Hastings 'Unauthorized Cremation' Mega-Rumor False, Family Says

According to a member of Michael Hastings's family, a widely circulated story that the investigative journalist's body was cremated by authorities without the family's permission is flat-out untrue.
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a family member told WhoWhatWhy, "It was our wish to have Michael's remains cremated." In fact, this family member said the cremation came about at the family's specific request-and only after an autopsy and toxicology tests, whose results are pending.
~
In a telephone interview, Biggs told us that he was the source of Dvorak's reporting, but not her mis-reporting. "That lady asked me about being at the memorial service. I said it was the first one I've been at without a body. I meant we didn't have closure..I said that if I were killed, I would never want to be cremated. Somehow all this got mixed up. She took that to be that the body is missing and family didn't know where it is. Then this whole thing spun out of control.
 

chaos

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Define "everyone else" is lying?

the people on the intelligence committee, the people from the NSA and people from obama and bush's executive office are lying. In other words all the people who might be liable if this was ever deemed criminal in any way are lying.

these are the people caught out right lying about things like only "meta data"

What you're saying is like a broad statement based on gut feeling it's not really what i'd call hard evidence that every congressman and senator knew exactly what was going on in the NSA.

I mean it makes a lot of sense and is plausable but it's also a very pessimistic viewpoint as well.
I am saying that any Congressman who claims he didn't know is either lying or incompetent. Both are equally likely I'm sure. There are a handful of Congressmen who have been trying to get some of this stuff out there in recent years, but only a handful, not this legion of "HAY GUYS I DIDN'T KNOW!" Congressmen that we see now.

You're basically just deciding on a whim who you want to believe and who you don't want to believe and it's bullshit. The NSA and Obama are lying! Why? Because they are liars! Congressmen though? They were misled!
 

fanaskin

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well we have proof Obama, the NSA and the intelligence committee members are lying, We have "on the record" proof of that. We don't have direct proof the other ones that don't sit on related committee's knew. We do have proof generic senators/congressman who try and get NSA info are denied access.

So yes it does seem plausible that a massive spying operation that requires secrecy to be effective and legal would be secret even to many congressman and senators. The government did vote to defund the original program and it had to be saved via black budgeting and top secret mislabeled defense provisions, so there's a motive to keep this stuff hidden from the general congress as well.



I'm not saying you won't eventually be proven right but I don't consider that congress "knew everything" to be a solid assumption.

I dunno maybe it's just me.
 

chaos

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I think the "proof" you cite is nebulous in both instances. I'm not holding my breath for more info, but I am sure we will see more relatively soon.