The NSA watches you poop.

Dyvim_sl said:

Yeah thats exactly the problem we are facing now, we have no reliable source but his word on it an the handful of documents he has shown for what they are worth.
The side he paints to be the bad guys, wouldnt do a tabula rasa here since its all top secret stuff lol, and if they told us they prolly had to ship us all to guantanamo or such.
So its just a matter of who believe in the most. And prolly noone can proof his side was right all along.
If for one always believed that possibilty to have access to worthy knowledge will always corrupt the ohso righteous ones, into (mis-)using that knowledge.

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I take it back, Snowden isn't the idiot here, you are.

I read he was making like 120 a year, which isn't all that great in Hawaii. Comfortable sure, but he's not a baller.

Gavinrad_sl said:

I take it back, Snowden isn't the idiot here, you are.

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Im sure you wouldnt bite the hand that feeds you.

chaos_sl said:

I read he was making like 120 a year, which isn't all that great in Hawaii. Comfortable sure, but he's not a baller.

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I seriously doubt he was making even that much, this isn't private sector salaries so he'd be the first one cut from the budget at that price.

Contractors make decent money, actually. Government guys don't, but have epic job stability. I really doubt he was making 200k+ though.

Ill save us the hassle and just link the forbes article on it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngogl...d-contractors/

Resume from that also:

200k a year and
If we can't agree on whether Mr. Snowden is a hero or a traitor, maybe we can all agree that he was overpaid. This could be the time to revisit whether outsourcing federal jobs is truly saving the taxpayers money.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

Actually Gavinrad is a moron and would bite the hand that feeds him. You are a poor judge of character.

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My willingness to bite the hand that feeds me does not make me a moron. There are much better reasons for that.

chaos_sl said:

Contractors make decent money, actually. Government guys don't, but have epic job stability. I really doubt he was making 200k+ though.

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Confirmed NSA plant. It is well documented that in the past ten years Public Sector salaries have outstripped Private Sector salaries particularly at the 100k+ higher end. Government jobs have better benefits, much better security and pay better.

If you really want to get annoyed compare public sector pension plans...

Just one example:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...eral-pay_N.htm

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.

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These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

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ITT we learn that private companies are stingy.

tad10_sl said:

Confirmed NSA plant. It is well documented that in the past ten years Public Sector salaries have outstripped Private Sector salaries particularly at the 100k+ higher end. Government jobs have better benefits, much better security and pay better.

If you really want to get annoyed compare public sector pension plans...

Just one example:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...eral-pay_N.htm

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Whatevs, bro. I make more than my government boss's boss as a contractor. Life is ok.

chaos_sl said:

Not true. For the second time in this thread. The reporter in question references using the law against "whistleblowers", not using the law period. The government doesn't consider him a whislteblower so it doesn't really apply, it is just a reporter framing a question i a certain way to try and make a point.

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I double checked that statement before I wrote that. I found it in several articles that did not specifically apply it to whistleblowers. Seems a lot of reporters are 'making a point'. Regardless, even only applying to whistleblowers, it is still abusive and quite indicative of an administration that is hostile to federal employees that leak wrongdoing to the media. Even scarier is the government prosecuting the journalists who receive the leaked documents-- the trend Bush started, and the means that the current administration apparently wants to grab Assange with, even though he isn't even American or was even here when he communicated with Manning.

I'm seeing some articles mention that Snowden makes indicted leaker #8 for Obama, so Obama's DoJ is indicting so many whistleblowers that the media can't even keep up now. So out of 11 cases, 8 are Obama's-- using the same weapon Nixon used to attack Daniel Ellsberg.

What is so profoundly hypocritical about all this are the leakers Obama does NOT go after-- the ones who leak information that benefit his administration. Also,this was in Obama's campaignwhen he was running for office:

Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled as they have been during the Bush administration. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.

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Instead, Obama has implemented his "Insider Threat Program" that accuses leakers of aiding the enemy and that "requires federal employees to keep closer tabs on their co-workers and exhorts managers to punish those who fail to report their suspicions."

chaos_sl said:

Seems pretty spot on based on what? He released some documents, ok. Now he is talking like he is an expert on not just PRIZM, but all NSA and intelligence related systems and laws. This guy is an analyst with a bare few years of experience, but on the internet he's an all knowing demi-god of intelligence prowess andevery single personwho questions or contradicts him is wrong and stupid. He just says things like "We can tap any phone" and that seems pretty spot on? He says all of the companies involved are lying, but provides nothing other than his word to back it up.

I think people are desperate to believe anything negative that they read, because it confirms their fears. I think they accept it with no critical thought and no objective analysis. If Snowden releases documents proving this bullshit he's saying, I'll eat my fucking hat bros. And then go on to criticize the NSA for putting the most retarded, stupidest fucking plan into reality that I could possibly imagine. Just primed and ready for abuse. But I doubt he will, because he's making it up.

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You're right, I do fear my loss of civil liberties. I fear it a whole HELL of a lot more than I fear terrorism. And this program IS stupid, because the blowback is going to encourage much more use of end to end encryption. They got greedy and lazy, and now the libertarian-minded geeks are going to fight back. (why do you keep spelling PRISM with a Z btw?)

If Snowden is a liar, then how can the government prosecute him for leaking information that isn't true?

The documents he leaked claimed the government had a tap into Microsoft, Google, etc. -- it wasn't just Snowden's verbal claims. Twitter was not included and Twitter has a reputation of being the most fierce advocate for user privacy of all the tech giants, which seems to lend credence to the leaks.

So far 4 presentation slides out of 41 that Snowden gave the two media outlets were released. One slide claimed, quote:

What will you receive in collection (surveillance and stored comms)? It varies by provider. In general: E-mail, Chat -- video, voice, Videos, Photos, Stored data, VoIP, File transfers, Video conferencing, Notifications of target activity -- logins, etc. Online Social Networking details, Special Requests

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Either Snowden fabricated the slides, or they are genuine. I have yet to see an official claim that they aren't real. If they are fake, then Snowden was indicted over fake leaks and abandoned his comfortable life over them. The 120k salary claim was from his (now former) employer, not Snowden himself. If Snowden was merely a 'low level analyst' who knew nothing of importance, then he has nothing to sell to China.

Asking me to believe that Snowden gave up what he did because he thought he would get much more from either China and/or "donations" and that he would be safe from the wrath of the United States is more ridiculous to me than a government creating a secret overreaching surveillance program not unlike ones found in many countries in the world, during a time of terrorism paranoia-- particularly given the history of surveillance abuses in this country and the political beating Obama would get for failing to stop attacks.

I have a close relative who is a paralegal in the Air Force. I get to hear about how terrible a person Bradly Manning is, and how 'fortunate' the prisoners in Bagram are because they are 'well treated' and how they all want to kill me. It doesn't surprise me that Chaos and a_skeleton_03 would defend their employers either, no offense.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

I don't think you understand at all.

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I understand that you're ready to welcome in the police state with open arms.

If Snowden had stayed here he'd have been locked up and never heard from again, he did us a service, "eveyone" understood back in 1990 that the NSA was using Echelon or wtf and listening in on phone calls but only those between the US and International Countries, as well as various international communications. Nobody was bothered by the intrustion on the 4th Amendment rights of those in the US who were calling Lebanon or Syria or wherever because it was a small minority of the country and we thhought it made us more secure, in hindsight we were wrong on both counts. Now we know the NSA was listening in on everybody and we know it isn't making us any more secure. The 'we've stopped 50 attacks' line is total fucking bullshit.

Sidenote, what was 'vague' about the information released by Snowden? The Verizon order seemed very specific too me, so too the PP listing the companies the NSA was grabbing info from.