The Trayvon Trial

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Tanoomba

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All I can read from you are horribly sexist and close minded comments from you.
And yet, you have been unable to successfully point outONE. Maybe it's your reading comp that's the issue?


Guys calling a Mexican a Mexican is racist. I hate it when people call me Italian, it's so fucking racist.
Jesus Christ, you are fucking hilarious.
"Cheech Marin is a Mexican." - not racist.
"Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!" - racist.

What the fuck is the matter with you? How can you not see this?
 

Coren_sl

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And yet, you have been unable to successfully point outONE. Maybe it's your reading comp that's the issue?




Jesus Christ, you are fucking hilarious.
"Cheech Marin is a Mexican." - not racist.
"Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!" - racist.

What the fuck is the matter with you? How can you not see this?
No, in context that is not racist, as I have already explained.
 

hodj

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I was going to post this earlier but right as I went to hit submit the power went out in my whole neighborhood.

Tanoomba et all have suggested that Zimmerman is racist. The logic behind this assertion is that he profiled Martin based on his race before following him.

This is a false impression of the circumstances as they occurred.

I'm about to show you where this false impression came from. It came from NBC news doctoring the 911 call Zimmerman made that day and then airing said doctored tape on the Today show

Here is a link to a story about their ex post facto apology for their "error"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...5jtS_blog.html

NBC has completed its investigation into the mishandling of the police dispatcher's conversation with George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case. And the process ends with a finding of error, plus an apology. Here is the statement just issued by the network:

During our investigation it became evident that there was an error made in the production process that we deeply regret. We will be taking the necessary steps to prevent this from happening in the future and apologize to our viewers.
That apology addresses the "Today" show's failure to abridge accurately the conversation between Zimmerman and the dispatcher in this high-profile case. This is how the program portrayed a segment of that conversation:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black.
And here is how it actually went down:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy - is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
No matter how you feel about Zimmerman, that bit of tape editing was unfair to the truth and to Zimmerman's reputation, such as it is. Reaction on Twitter and elsewhere to my previous post on this matter, was brutal toward NBC, with many comments suggesting the worst about the network's motivations, reliability and so on.

Does the statement adequately address those concerns? On the good front, it acknowledges the mistake and apologizes to viewers for the bad editing. It's a forthright correction and spares us any excuses about the faulty portrayal. On the bad front, the statement is skimpy on the details on just how the mistake unfolded. Nor does it articulate an apology directly to George Zimmerman, the "viewer" who is most aggrieved by the screw-up. In light of all that's happened, Zimmerman may be a tough person for a news network to apologize to, but that's just the point: Apologies are hard.
George Zimmerman DID NOT racially profile Martin. Zimmerman DID NOT refer to him as a black person until he was ASKED TO TELL THE 911 OPERATOR the color of Martin's skin. Pretty much blows this whole argument about race in this situation out of the water.

Added: Zimmerman is supposedly hispanic and jewish. Also pretty well puts an end to this whole racism angle.

In point of fact, I posit had the media referred to him as Jorge Zimmerstein, this case never would have broken national news coverage for longer than a day, max.
 

hodj

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And some more from the Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rge-zimmerman/

There are lots of damning allegations against NBC News in the "reckless defamation" lawsuit filed yesterday by lawyers for George Zimmerman. It charges NBC News with an effort to "create the myth that George Zimmerman was a racist and predatory villain" in its coverage of the Trayvon Martin case.

NBC Universal has already slapped back that contention. A statement issued yesterday to the Erik Wemple Blog states, in part, "There was no intent to portray Mr. Zimmerman unfairly."
There's at least one other claim in the suit, however, that won't prompt a sharp denial from NBC:

To this day, the defendants have never apologized to Zimmerman for deliberately portraying him as a hostile racist who targeted Martin due to his race."

That's not to say that NBC News never expressed any contrition for the audio edits. Following an investigation into the matter, the outlet released this statement:

During our investigation it became evident that there was an error made in the production process that we deeply regret. We will be taking the necessary steps to prevent this from happening in the future and apologize to our viewers.
So NBC News apologized to Zimmerman only to the extent that Zimmerman figures among the pool of NBC News "viewers." At the time, this blog noted that a statement of regret issued directly to Zimmerman would have been a good idea:

[T]he statement is skimpy on the details on just how the mistake unfolded. Nor does it articulate an apology directly to George Zimmerman, the "viewer" who is most aggrieved by the screw-up. In light of all that's happened, Zimmerman may be a tough person for a news network to apologize to, but that's just the point: Apologies are hard.

The severity of NBC News's misdeeds required far more apologizing than just a quick mention in a minimalist press release. NewsBusters.org, which broke the story, abhorred the failure to take the apology to another platform: NBC's own air. And David Carr of the New York Times got NBC News President Steve Capus to concede that the network "probably" should have done just that.

The journalistic reasons for a direct-to-Zimmerman mea culpa are formidable. It would have acknowledged that Zimmerman was owed something special here; it would have acknowledged that the network's journalism has real and deep impact; it would have earned the company its first bout of positive press since the mis-editing began; and it would have been the right and principled thing to do, no insignificant consideration for a journalism organ.

Now pile on some legal-slash-business reasons for saying sorry. Florida has a glorious retraction statute that rewards journalistic integrity. It could have saved the network some grief in the (very likely) scenario that Zimmerman would sue for defamation. The law appears customized for just the series of events claimed by NBC News in its official statements - that is, that the edits were the result of innocent mistakes. Under such a case, a "Full and fair correction, apology, or retraction," to use the language of the Florida statute, limits a plaintiff like Zimmerman to recovery of only "actual damages," meaning that he couldn't soak NBC Universal for punitive damages and the like.

There's one stipulation in the law, however, that NBC News hasn't come close to fulfilling: The retraction or correction must be broadcast in a time slot "comparable" to when the false report was aired. Go ahead, try finding a lawyer who'll argue that a press release meets this criterion

James Beasley, the Philadelphia-based lawyer who's representing Zimmerman, says his office requested retraction from NBC News in late September/early October. "Nothing of substance ever came through," says Beasley. "You give the defendants the opportunity to correct it, and the fact that they don't goes toward the issue of malice."

NBC Universal didn't respond to a request for comment in time for this post.
Note that to this day, NBC has yet to apologize, on air, for making people think Zimmerman profiled Martin in the first place. Not one time have they done so.
 

Tanoomba

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No, in context that is not racist, as I have already explained.
No, you have not explained it, you have simply claimed it. Incorrectly.


I was going to post this earlier but right as I went to hit submit the power went out in my whole neighborhood.

Tanoomba et all have suggested that Zimmerman is racist. The logic behind this assertion is that he profiled Martin based on his race before following him.

This is a false impression of the circumstances as they occurred.

I'm about to show you where this false impression came from. It came from NBC news doctoring the 911 call Zimmerman made that day and then airing said doctored tape on the Today show

Here is a link to a story about their ex post facto apology for their "error"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...5jtS_blog.html



George Zimmerman DID NOT racially profile Martin. Zimmerman DID NOT refer to him as a black person until he was ASKED TO TELL THE 911 OPERATOR the color of Martin's skin. Pretty much blows this whole argument about race in this situation out of the water.

Added: Zimmerman is supposedly hispanic and jewish. Also pretty well puts an end to this whole racism angle.

In point of fact, I posit had the media referred to him as Jorge Zimmerstein, this case never would have broken national news coverage for longer than a day, max.
I like your posts, Hodj, I really do. You make an effort to get to the facts and for that I commend you.
Having said that, I have issue with a few of the conclusions you came to.
Why is walking around, looking about considered "suspicious behavior"? Because it's raining? If Martin had been white, would it have been suspicious?
Just because Zimmerman didn't mention the race of the guy until asked, doesn't mean it wasn't a factor in why he was considered "suspicious".
Now, before the floodgates open telling me "He was suspicious because he didn't recognize him", I see people I don't recognize every day of my life, even on the small street I live on. Does that make them suspicious? What about if it's raining, are they suspicious then?
Oh, and being Hispanic and Jewish does not make someone incapable of being racist, as demonstrated in Zimmerman's MySpace page.

Finally, I will readily and heartily agree that what the media did was disgusting and they should be ashamed.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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if it was a woman getting attacked, he'd be white knighting this thread.

but no, he wouldn't do that for a man.
 

Vandyn

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Why is walking around, looking about considered "suspicious behavior"? Because it's raining? If Martin had been white, would it have been suspicious?
Just because Zimmerman didn't mention the race of the guy until asked, doesn't mean it wasn't a factor in why he was considered "suspicious".
Why does the context continue to be ignored. It was suspicious behavior to him because:

a) he's lived in a neighborhood that was been victimized by a number of break-in's
b) Said break-in's were done by african americans
c) Being part of the Neighborhood Watch, he's conditioned to spot out anything unusual. A guy that he's never seen before, standing in the rain in the dark is unusual to him.
d) He called the non emergency number to report it, as he's done previously.

So if you want want to say he profiled him because he looked like he didn't belong there, fine. But his race has nothing to do with it. If a bunch of white guys had been committing crimes in the neighborhood, then you may have an argument, because that goes against the pattern that he should be looking out for.
 

iannis

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How can you be Hispanic and Jewish at the same time?

God must REALLY hate this guy.

Set him free, spit in God's Eye!
 

hodj

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Why is walking around, looking about considered "suspicious behavior"?
Because, as has already been shown, repeatedly, over and over, there had been several break ins in the neighborhood recently.

Just because Zimmerman didn't mention the race of the guy until asked, doesn't mean it wasn't a factor in why he was considered "suspicious".
Yes, yes it does, because the only reason that you THINK race was a factor in this whole boondoggle is BECAUSE that idea was planted into the nation's consciousness by a false news report that was never retracted in the same format it was delivered in. Without the false report, there was no reason to suspect race was a motivating factor, period. The only reason you are now convinced, and can claim it "doesn't mean it wasn't a factor" was because the CONCEPT that Zimmerman MIGHT HAVE been profiling Martin was implanted there by our (literally) worthless media and never properly retracted.

And I don't know why they did it. Some might speculate it was because of Florida's black vote being crucial in the 2012 election cycle and wanting to get them riled up and ready to go vote that fall. I would speculate that most media agencies don't have anyone of high enough intellectual calibre and foresight to actually think that far ahead and plan malicious events such as that, so I would speculate that it was almost entirely on NBC knowing if they pushed the race angle, it would help boost their ratings for their news programs. This is why I despise US media and don't watch or listen to it, instead opting for mostly British news sources on stories.

And being Hispanic and Jewish does exonerate him from being engaged in the type of racism that Americans are hypersensitive about, that being the racism of entrenched white power and its effects on minorities, particularly African Americans. Have to be white to get white privilege, after all.

As far as I can tell, Hispanics and Blacks generally don't get along, but that isn't the sort of entrenched power structure and social caste based racism that the social justice crowd are concerned with, and isn't the type of "Racism" that you, or anyone else claiming Zimmerman are a racist, are actually implying, which is that he's a white racist, a white supremicist KKK militia type who wants to hunt down blacks and start a race war type racist. There is a huge difference between the racism inherent between two groups of minorities at the bottom of a social class system (which is usually a racism engendered by the powers that be in order to divide the poor and keep them under control by keeping them in conflict with one another) and the racism inherent between two groups, one being a majority and the power holder, and the other being a minority and the powerless.

When people argue Zimmerman profiled Martin, what they are implying is that Zimmerman, being a white male, used his position of authority in our society to justify his decision to hunt down and kill a black teenager in the street. That's literally the argument being made by the people claiming Zimmerman profiled Martin. Implicit in this argument is that Zimmerman enjoys white privilege and white power and authority, which was why he wasn't initially arrested until there was outcry by the public, and so if he gets off it will be because white privilege protected a white murderer who slaughtered a young black man in the street. If Zimmerman is latino, and jewish, he's not part of the white power structure, enjoys no position of social authority over Martin in regards to his race versus Martin's, and therefore, the fact that he is Hispanic and Jewish pretty much exonerates him from the crime of white power based racism he's being accused of.
 

hodj

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How can you be Hispanic and Jewish at the same time?

God must REALLY hate this guy.

Set him free, spit in God's Eye!
Its fucking Florida man. As determined far earlier in this thread, Florida and Germany are the places where the most fucked up things are either going to, or leaving.

Funny story, though, I went to a very small school for children with ADHD for like half a year in my teens. It was run by a Jewish family, but the father was actually Hispanic. His name was Jorge! But the mother was Jewish, and the sons were all raised Jewish, even Jorge was a Jewish convert!
 

ZyyzYzzy

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I like your posts, Hodj, I really do. You make an effort to get to the facts and for that I commend you.
Having said that, I have issue with a few of the conclusions you came to.
Why is walking around, looking about considered "suspicious behavior"? Because it's raining? If Martin had been white, would it have been suspicious?
Just because Zimmerman didn't mention the race of the guy until asked, doesn't mean it wasn't a factor in why he was considered "suspicious".
Now, before the floodgates open telling me "He was suspicious because he didn't recognize him", I see people I don't recognize every day of my life, even on the small street I live on. Does that make them suspicious? What about if it's raining, are they suspicious then?
Oh, and being Hispanic and Jewish does not make someone incapable of being racist, as demonstrated in Zimmerman's MySpace page.

Finally, I will readily and heartily agree that what the media did was disgusting and they should be ashamed.
It is like you throw in shit in your posts that you think people just want to hear. You are still ignoring the whole story. There was a rash of break-ins in the area, and that is why an unfamiliar person was asked by Zimmerman what they are doing there.
 

Coren_sl

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It is like you throw in shit in your posts that you think people just want to hear. You are still ignoring the whole story. There was a rash of break-ins in the area, and that is why an unfamiliar person was asked by Zimmerman what they are doing there.
And we still don't know if George ever said that. The only witness that claims to have heard it has lied multiple times under oath, and admitted to fabricating testimony.
 

Tanoomba

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Because, as has already been shown, repeatedly, over and over, there had been several break ins in the neighborhood recently.



Yes, yes it does, because the only reason that you THINK race was a factor in this whole boondoggle is BECAUSE that idea was planted into the nation's consciousness by a false news report that was never retracted in the same format it was delivered in. Without the false report, there was no reason to suspect race was a motivating factor, period. The only reason you are now convinced, and can claim it "doesn't mean it wasn't a factor" was because the CONCEPT that Zimmerman MIGHT HAVE been profiling Martin was implanted there by our (literally) worthless media and never properly retracted.

And I don't know why they did it. Some might speculate it was because of Florida's black vote being crucial in the 2012 election cycle and wanting to get them riled up and ready to go vote that fall. I would speculate that most media agencies don't have anyone of high enough intellectual calibre and foresight to actually think that far ahead and plan malicious events such as that, so I would speculate that it was almost entirely on NBC knowing if they pushed the race angle, it would help boost their ratings for their news programs. This is why I despise US media and don't watch or listen to it, instead opting for mostly British news sources on stories.

And being Hispanic and Jewish does exonerate him from being engaged in the type of racism that Americans are hypersensitive about, that being the racism of entrenched white power and its effects on minorities, particularly African Americans. Have to be white to get white privilege, after all.

As far as I can tell, Hispanics and Blacks generally don't get along, but that isn't the sort of entrenched power structure and social caste based racism that the social justice crowd are concerned with, and isn't the type of "Racism" that you, or anyone else claiming Zimmerman are a racist, are actually implying, which is that he's a white racist, a white supremicist KKK militia type who wants to hunt down blacks and start a race war type racist. There is a huge difference between the racism inherent between two groups of minorities at the bottom of a social class system (which is usually a racism engendered by the powers that be in order to divide the poor and keep them under control by keeping them in conflict with one another) and the racism inherent between two groups, one being a majority and the power holder, and the other being a minority and the powerless.

When people argue Zimmerman profiled Martin, what they are implying is that Zimmerman, being a white male, used his position of authority in our society to justify his decision to hunt down and kill a black teenager in the street. That's literally the argument being made by the people claiming Zimmerman profiled Martin. Implicit in this argument is that Zimmerman enjoys white privilege and white power and authority, which was why he wasn't initially arrested until there was outcry by the public, and so if he gets off it will be because white privilege protected a white murderer who slaughtered a young black man in the street. If Zimmerman is latino, and jewish, he's not part of the white power structure, enjoys no position of social authority over Martin in regards to his race versus Martin's, and therefore, the fact that he is Hispanic and Jewish pretty much exonerates him from the crime of white power based racism he's being accused of.
Yes, I get it, there had been several break-ins in the neighborhood, I GET IT. When Zimmerman saw a young man peering into the window of an empty house, that's extremely fucking suspicious behavior and more than worthy of being reported on. The fact that Zimmerman was able to later identify this guy after he was caught by police shows that yes, Zimmerman is actually trying to do his part to stop crime in his neighborhood. But there's a difference between being in someone's back yard peering through their windows and walking on public property after legally purchasing snacks (in the rain). Yes, the guy they caught, and the other guys previously seen in someone's yard, were black. But guess what? 20% of that neighborhood, or one in 5 people, are black. Deciding someone is suspicious because they are black and it's raining is profiling.

And no, don't tell me thatI'vebeen convinced by a flawed news story. You don't know where I heard about this case from. There's plenty of reason to suspect race was a factor without that story. Don't tell me what my definition of racism is either. I'm not talking about white power. I'm talking about a guy who had seen black people causing trouble, so he took it upon himself to eye black people more suspiciously. There's a word for that. it's called profiling, and anyone can do it. Even Hispanic Jews!
 
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