The Zionists are whining thread

Chris_sl said:

It's a test from Allah.

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Does Allah grade on a curve?

khorum_sl said:

Oh I don't see anyone else confused by those arguments aside from you.

The fact is since the founding of Israel, the Palestinians have gotten far worse treatment under their Arab "brothers" than even compared to Israel. The Hashemite Jordanians welcomed them into their country and thePLO attempted to overthrow the countryand lost 20,000 people for it. When the Lebanese showed them generosity they DESTROYED that country in a civil war. Even the Egyptians are bombing their tunnels into Gaza because of their support for jihadists. Yet the Israelis allow peaceful Palestinians to work and even live in peace but we're expected to ignore the fact that border crossings into Jordan, Syria and Egypt are just as stringent.

And what was your answer to this? "Waaaaaah MUH FEELS, the jews act so superior and arrogant and CHOSEN that it's like apartheid! Donate to my patreon plzkthx!"

LOL you want a headache?

Guess what? If your Allah actually existed, then why in the fuck did he CHOOSE to give the hated jews such gigantic mutant brains that they're fully40% smarter than the global average? When the jews were crammed in ghettoes lurching from one European pogrom to another andforbidden from holding property, owning a farm or serving as mercenaries----worse conditions than any Palestinian endures today----they not only emerged richer, they evolved 15-20 IQ points smarter than surrounding populations.

If Allah existed, why did he choose to let the Israelis win against impossible odds in 1948? Then why did Allah CHOOSE to hand them Jerusalem in a bullshit impossible victory in 1967 against the whole Arab league that would be unbelievable if it had been a movie script? Finally, even after four years of preparations by the Arab League, guarantees of no outside intervention and total surprise, why did Allah CHOOSE to give the Israelis such a ridiculous implausible victory in the Yom Kippur war?

If Allahdoesexist and has CHOSEN to listen to anyone's prayers, then you'd have to scry his decisions by the shit that's been happening all over your world. You got crazy ISIS fucks selling virgins to foreign opportunists. You got Gulf Petro-tyrants flying around in their flying harems and treating their fellow muslim migrant laborers worse than the pharaohs treated their slaves, and you got almost a million of your people marching to CHRISTENDOM for a chance of a new future because any lands Islam touches, it defiles.

Meanwhile,Israel is turning its deserts into the richest farmland in the region.

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I think you just pushed Osiris from a "headache" into to a full blown aneurysm..

And yeah, aside from Gaza, Lebanon is probably the other best cautionary tale of what happens when you extend the olive branch to the Palestinians. It used to be the secular Paris of the middle-east before it was rekt by the Palestinians and turned into the cesspit it is today.

See the thing is , the dude is veering into insanity...there is nothing there about anything but cobbled together shit to support his view of god knows what. He is taking a sample and then using that to support his view that what "Islamic Governments" do is the reflection of Islam. Why would anyone argue with someone that fucking stupid. Yeah not gonna happen , he can go believing what he does and go through life just like that and i am fine with that not gonna try to convince him otherwise. He keeps citing why didnt God intervene into events and expects me to answer that garbage with something , cant be serious.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

I think you just pushed Osiris from a "headache" into to a full blown aneurysm..

And yeah, aside from Gaza, Lebanon is probably the other best cautionary tale of what happens when you extend the olive branch to the Palestinians. It used to be the secular Paris of the middle-east before it was rekt by the Palestinians and turned into the cesspit it is today.

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It is also the reason prior to Israel being founded the Palestinians were wanted by nobody in the middle east and were shuffled from one camp to another. The only reason they have any backing at all is a combination of people hating the jews and also people really NOT wanting Palestinians coming to their countries.

The insane ravings of Khorum aside, there has been a growing division in the Palestinian solidarity movement over the last 5 or so years. There's the people who are critical of Israel but genuinely want to see a resolution of the conflict, and then there's the BDS movement which wants to turn Israel and all the occupied territories into a single state which would incidentally make the Palestinians the majority.

Norman Finkelstein was actually very candid about it, referring to BDS as a 'cult' in this now famous interview:



full interview here if you're interested:Norman Finkelstein Interview with Frank Barat: BDS Campaign | Imperial College London [09-02-2012] - YouTube

What insane ravings?

Not a spongebob fan?

The problem with arguing with someone like yourself is that there is a grain of truth to what you're saying. You take a few diffuse facts and run off the edge of earth with them; and I don't think bringing things up from the pre-48 period are of much relevance.

The solution is very straigtforward - two state settlement on the pre-june 1967 border with a few modifications. The Palestinians have already said they are willing to let Isreal keep roughly ~60 percent of the existing settlements, but Israel has to give them East Jerusalem as their capital in return... which the Israeli negotiators have already agreed to in principle. The problem is not much pressure has been put on the Israeli's to actually implement the solution, instead they are doing what they have been doing over the last 50 years - slowly annexing the occupied territories into Israel.

The only pre-1948 mention I made is in reference to the Ashkenazi experience, tho.

In fact I mentioned the Black September expulsion and the PLO's role in the fall of Lebanon---major factors that fractured the Palestinian resistance movement along secular pan-arabist and jihadist faultlines long before the second intifada.

But Finkelstein is absolutely correct that your "solution" stops being even a little straightforward when the public balances abstract grievances about some noname kibbutz being annexed in the West Bank vs INTEGRATED Israeli Arabs stabbing people in the face and this shit being distributed on facebook:



I mean shit, MY ravings have to be pretty. fucking. insane. to compete with a simple web search for "do palestinians want to kill all jews".

When you are expelled from your village, have it bulldozed down, become a refugee, and then watch settlements being built on it then yes that creates hatred. This is now 3rd and 4th generation of Palestinians brought up under occupation and dispossession; and not to mention the ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed is roughly 20:1. If you want to see the hatred start to go away then finally agree to the two-state settlement and stop building settlements.

Luxer_sl said:

When you are expelled from your village, have it bulldozed down, become a refugee, and then watch settlements being built on it then yes that creates hatred. This is now 3rd and 4th generation of Palestinians brought up under occupation and dispossession; and not to mention the ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed is roughly 20:1. If you want to see the hatred start to go away then finally agree to the two-state settlement and stop building settlements.

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Oh is THAT how feels work?

But then the Israelis will just mention how these recent knife attacks have been from Israeli Arab citizens who come from among the Druze or Bedouin tribes friendly to Israel or have been vetted prior to naturalization. More than a fifth of Israelis are Arabs like the kids who arenow getting arrested for attempting to stab their peers.

Even if you somehow overcome the image of crazed child-fanatics stabbing their classmates because their distant co-religionists aren't allowed to preach genocide at the al Aqsa mosque, the Israelis can just explain that they bulldoze the homes of confirmed terrorists to counter the Saudi/Gulf States cottage industryincentivizing suicide bombers by promising to pay their familiesif they blow themselves up:

Spiegel_sl said:

And accounts at its Palestinian branches are also supposedly used to pay a type of life insurance to the families of youthful suicide bombers, who blow themselves up with the aim of killing as many Israelis as possible. The blood money paid for a son turned murderer is 20,000 Saudi riyal -- roughly ?4,000 or $5,000. The funds take a circuitous route to the accounts of those families that prove the death of their son by showing a death certificate at the Arab Bank branch in the Palestinian Territories. Then monthly deposits are made just like in Takruri's case.

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Then you'd be unravelling a whole network of rich gulf oil-tycoons bankrolling poor Palestinian kids in a community with 65% unemployment MORE MONEY FOR THEIR FAMILIES than they would make at a McDonald's for a year if they'd just blow up some innocent civilians. Then you'd be back at Finklestein's dillemma all over again.

Luxer_sl said:

The problem with arguing with someone like yourself is that there is a grain of truth to what you're saying. You take a few diffuse facts and run off the edge of earth with them; and I don't think bringing things up from the pre-48 period are of much relevance.

The solution is very straigtforward - two state settlement on the pre-june 1967 border with a few modifications. The Palestinians have already said they are willing to let Isreal keep roughly ~60 percent of the existing settlements, but Israel has to give them East Jerusalem as their capital in return... which the Israeli negotiators have already agreed to in principle. The problem is not much pressure has been put on the Israeli's to actually implement the solution, instead they are doing what they have been doing over the last 50 years - slowly annexing the occupied territories into Israel.

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Well, you're certainly the first person I've ever heard refer to the solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict as being "straightforward".

Before I even bother addressing the flaws in your simplistic view of what would be needed to achieve "peace", let's make one thing abundantly clear-- the root causes of this conflict has nothing to do with the occupation, or settlements, or Palestinian rights. The causes are Jew hatred and butchery going back centuries, as well as Muslim superiority and ownership over the "holy lands". You say that "pre-1948" isn't relevant. It's extremely fucking relevant, because if you look at pre 1948 you'll see the Muslims have a very nice track record of butchering Jews-- before Israel, before the "occupation", and before settlements.. One only has to watch any of the hundreds of available videos and articles circulated in Palestinian media (available on such sites as memri.org or palwatch.org) to realize that this is a religious war-- a compulsion, even a responsibility, for Muslims to retake lands they see as theirs and purge it of all Jews. If you honestly believe a society that has created a cradle to grave environment of institutionalized Jew hatred is suddenly going to go all Koombaya over some arbitrary land swap agreement and suddenly decide to live in peace with their Israeli neighbors, you either are a na?ve idiot, have zero understanding of history in the region, and most of all ignore the fact that no Muslims, anywhere in the world, live peacefully with their non-muslim neighbors. Nowhere. Yet you expect them to live in peace next to Jews?? It's a farce, and everybody knows it, most of all the Israelis.

As for the rest of your argument.. You say that the Palestinians "agreed" to some land swap agreement for peace. The Palestinians have agreed to nothing, because they have nobody with the recognized authority of making or enforcing peace since the Arafat days. Who can make and enforce peace? Who speaks for all the Palestinians when they are comprised of 20+ factional/tribal militant and political groups all vying for control. Their entire "government" is a comprised of a bunch of criminal gangs.. Hamas has no desire for peace and their written charter calls for the genocide of all Jews. The PA is run by Abbas, who is at this point a powerless despot in the 10th year of his 4 year term, because if he was to call an election he would be replaced with Hamas. So who exactly is Israel supposed to "negotiate" with? The Palestinians *Twice* had a chance to get peace along with almost everything they asked for, and twice they backed out at the last moment. There is no profit in peace. You can't be a Palestinian ruler with 300 million in the bank if you are at "peace" and suddenly are expected to run a responsible government.

Also, you do know the "occupied territories" was Egypt and Jordan proper right, and never "Palestine"? If the land was ever ceded, why should it go to the Palestinians and not back to Jordan/Egypt respectively?

Nobody has the authority within the Palestinians to mandate or enforce peace, because again just like the rest of the Arab world anything resembling a stable, peaceful, productive government is impossible. Why is it when people refer to the Palestinians, they are viewed as rational actors-- somehow different than all the other Muslim nations?

A few days ago, 100,000 Israelis rallied for peace while Bill Clinton gave a speech at the Rabin memorial. Simultaneously, the Palestinians opened up a store named "Hitler" selling all the accessories you need to successfully stab Jews.. If you lived in Israel, would you view these people as "peace partners"?

Your history is quite off. The Jewish people fled parts of Europe to Arab states to escape persecution from the Catholics for the most part. It wasn't Utopia but they lived side by side with Muslims relatively peacefully. In fact, prior to the creation of Israel antisemitism was very marginal in the Middle East. It has increased dramatically over the last 70 years to what it is today where they see Jews behind everything.

And you're also wrong about the solution. It is very straightforward, it has been laid out in the International Court of Justice for decades and is the only realistic solution. The 67' border with land swaps, East Jerusalem becomes part of Palestine, and effectively no right of return. The problem is Israel has no incentive to accept it, we & Europe pay for the settlements and we block for them at the UN security council. Israel continues to prefer expansion over a peace settlement.

Egypt and Jordan are separate cases. Egypt warned Israel to stop annexing northeastern Sinai and when they didn't the war came, eventually they signed a peace treaty with Egypt because Egypt could actually fight back. The west bank and Gaza have no deterrent like Egypt did.

Let's get this straight: HIS history is off yetyouclaim Egypt was ever in a militarily strong position vs. Israel at any point?

Even at their best effort in the Yom Kippur surprise-attack in 1973, the Egyptians were only able to "incentivize" the Americans to pressure Israel to back off because the "surprised" Israelis were so impressed by what you describe as Egypt's "ability to fight back" that Israeli troops had crossed the Suez and were less than 80km from the Egyptian capital and had the ENTIRE Egyptian 3rd Army trapped and isolated for the slaughter.

It was the encirclement and certain annihilation of the Egyptian third army that persuaded Henry Kissinger to convince the Israelis to a cease fire. THAT moment---Kissinger feeling pity at the abject humiliation of the Arab world's finest military----is one of those 10 "victories" Finklestein talks about in your video. Yeah, "victory".

Furthermore, that humiliation after Yom Kippur---which ended with Israel's borders expanding further into Egypt and Syria, btw---is regarded as the final nail inAnwar Sadat's secular Pan-Arabism. The Baath party formed as a response to the Arab League's failure to reverse 'al Nakba', the PLO splintered into jihadist movements and Sadat himself would be assassinated by jihadists a few years later.

Luxer_sl said:

Your history is quite off. The Jewish people fled parts of Europe to Arab states to escape persecution from the Catholics for the most part. It wasn't Utopia but they lived side by side with Muslims relatively peacefully. In fact, prior to the creation of Israel antisemitism was very marginal in the Middle East. It has increased dramatically over the last 70 years to what it is today where they see Jews behind everything.

And you're also wrong about the solution. It is very straightforward, it has been laid out in the International Court of Justice for decades and is the only realistic solution. The 67' border with land swaps, East Jerusalem becomes part of Palestine, and effectively no right of return. The problem is Israel has no incentive to accept it, we & Europe pay for the settlements and we block for them at the UN security council. Israel continues to prefer expansion over a peace settlement.

Egypt and Jordan are separate cases. Egypt warned Israel to stop annexing northeastern Sinai and when they didn't the war came, eventually they signed a peace treaty with Egypt because Egypt could actually fight back. The west bank and Gaza have no deterrent like Egypt did.

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You're either deluded or have a very poor grasp of history. Here's a nice summary of Muslim aggression against Jews in the region pre 1948. You're right that it wasn't a "utopia" lol..CAMERA: Anti-Jewish Violence in Pre-State Palestine/1929 Massacres

And still you ignore and fail to address the power and influence rabid Islamic xenophobic Jew hatred has on any ability to forge peace. You insist on ascribing some rational secular motive to the Palestinian cause, rather than recognizing the overwhelming retrograde taint fundamental Islam has on forging any lasting peace. You also ignore the reality that is Palestinian leadership, and their inability to enforce peace even if it was negotiated.

The whole "East Jerusalem" thing is also a joke. They will never be happy with anything but ALL of Jerusalem. They state this over and over in their own media, do I need to link a few dozen videos for you? Up until 1967, all of Jerusalem belonged to the Muslims, and it was extremely rare for any Christian or Jew be allowed to enter/pray. The Muslims feel it is their duty to recapture all of Jerusalem (and Israel), because their religion dictates that once land is conquered by Muslims, it shall always remain Muslims lands.. They were supposed to be happy with Gaza too, and what happened when it was ceded to them? Civil war that resulted in a terrorist group being elected and more rockets landing in Israel. If you want to choose a specific day that Israeli's lost faith in any real chance of peace, it was when they yanked 10,000 Jewish settlers from Gaza under the promise of peace, and instead got terrorism and rocket fire. On that day, the once very prominent and powerful Left in Israel lost a huge swath of their supporters, and the right wing government came to power.

Did I say Egypt beat Israel in the six day war? I said Egypt had adeterrentto constant Israeli expansion into Sinai. No one in the region can beat Israel militarily, with a small exception being a Pakistani nuclear strike. The fact that Israel would have to go to war to acquire more territories from Egypt, even if they would win, is a deterrent. The Palestinians have no deterrent at all, which is why they resorted to terrorist attacks against civilians. If they had a standing army with tanks and air force jets there would be no suicide bombings.

And your example of Israel yanking the settlers is laughable. Yes, they removed 10,000 people from subsidized settlements in Gaza and moved them into subsidized settlements in the West Bank. The settlement program was actually increased into the most important parts of the West Bank, namely the areas surround the crucial water resources. Again, this is why Israel refuses to implement to 2-state settlement... they want to keep annexing crucial parts of the West Bank so by the time a solution is implemented the map would already be different.

And as for the history, yes you can point to a few small scale massacres, but if you look at the period starting with the Inquisition through the 19th century it wasrelativelypeaceful.

Now who's clinging to pre-48 'irrelevancies'?

Yet you still imply that the Egyptian military is a deterrent to imagined Israeli aggression when there is nothing in the region that approximates such a thing. No, not even a Pakistani nuke, which exist because Indian nukes exist.

If the Palestinians DID have a standing army, do you seriously believe they'd fare any better than the FIVE standing armies of the entire Arab league in 1967? Do you think they'd do any better than the crack Egyptian third army with its advanced Soviet armor and training when it was encircled and almost annihilated in 1973?

You still haven't attempted to respond to that video that YOU posted: how do you propose to make a more sympathetic case for "pressuring" the Israelis when you have Palestinians commanding their children to attack their classmates with knives?

Or do you just plan on reverting to muhfeelz whenever someone responds to your objection about the Israeli settlements with AP footage of what happened during the LAST time Israel peacefully handed territory to the Palestinians like Gaza:



"Oh but they were just celebrating, Khorum. you raving unserious lunatic".They totally didn't turn Gaza into a permanent armed fortress and training camp for Hamas where the vast bulk of foreign aid was used to buy arms and cement to build the tunnels by which to smuggle them in.

So we're only "serious" if we accept your handwaving dismissal of Jewish concerns but you expect to be taken seriously when you flip out because no one is pressuring the Jews into replaying the Gaza outcome all over the West Bank?

If the United States and Europe stopped subsidizing the settlements and using our veto at the UN I think that would be enough of an incentive for Israel to finally implement a two-state settlement on the official 67' border. It's not that complicated.

Your assertion that continued expansion is a solution to the violence makes no sense. If you really want the conflict to deescalate then give the Palestinians a viable state, it won't end the violence overnight but over time I think you would see it slowly dissipate.

The article starts out with some facts , they were agaisnt the immigration and it goes into full detail. To insinuate that is was a religious war is borderline psychotic. This is a site that has all verses of the Qur'an that refers to people of the Jewish faithReferences to Jews in the Koran | Jewish Virtual Library. They even bolded the parts that might fit your criteria of Islam being the force of killing all jews. Which is a damn stretch in of itself , cause there are many verses that say respect people of the book and treat them fairly as well which are easy to find with just a google search and no real reading needed.Verses regarding the people of the book, thats just one i pulled and im sure you can find one not by a muslim if you care to look. Stop with the lies already , stop saying Islam this or Islam that when it isnt true.

Luxer_sl said:

If the United States and Europe stopped subsidizing the settlements and using our veto at the UN I think that would be enough of an incentive for Israel to finally implement a two-state settlement on the official 67' border. It's not that complicated.

Your assertion that continued expansion is a solution to the violence makes no sense. If you really want the conflict to deescalate then give the Palestinians a viable state, it won't end the violence overnight but over time I think you would see it slowly dissipate.

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Well I suppose putting words in people's mouths is an improvement over calling them raving lunatics and appeals-to-sympathy, since I never asserted continued expansion. But even that straw-khorum that you're bludgeoning with still has a point. In fact, sinceYOUposted the video, straw-khorum is technically arguingYOURpoint that it's basically theoppositeof uncomplicated.

How "uncomplicated" would it be to persuade the US public that a two-state solution would work when the basic history of Palestinian good faith gets you the Black September attempted overthrow in Jordan, then the Fall of Lebanon, then the first and second intifadas? Like Finklestein said, every argument for a two-state solution must answer for the OUTCOMES of previous attempts at accomodation. How can you convince anyone that handing over East Jerusalem will be any different than handing over Beirut to Hezbollah or Gaza to Hamas or even Fatah's own al-Aqsa intifada right now?

Straw-Khorum wouldn't be a very good strawman since you basically armed him yourself.