True Detective

If that's the case, Kirun, then it is disappointing. That's a shitload of production/editing fuckups.

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

Again, over thinking. As chaos said, the his are talking about a car accident when the dolls are like that. Don't act like a person lying down (or dead) and people standing around looking at them isnt a possibility. Surely the kids overheard their dad talking about crime scenes.

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It's a possibility, sure. Which is why I said one ending could very well be that it's just supposed to be Marty's take on an otherwise innocuous image. I'm just questioning the absolute faith you guys have that it's that.



Don't act like it's the audience reading too much into that image after they specifically had a clear center, close up, view shot of it (So it's not just some neckbeard picking it up in the background), and then later that night had drawings the daughter made with a masked man sexually touching a woman and also containing drawings that show up in the church later (And drawings, as said by the director, made by him).

It COULD be a coincidence, sure. But the audiences theories aren't a result of them just being assholes. It's obvious the director was manipulating things. Saying the "audience read it wrong" is just another way of saying "my symbolism was incredibly ham fisted and didn't communicate the things I wanted well, if I was going for simple."

Edit: I should mention, I have a distaste for authors who wade into their own commentary on their work. I feel like if the work didn't communicate what you wanted? Then you wrote it wrong. Blaming the audience for going afield, when you toss in shots like the above? Feels kind of dumb.

Alex_sl said:

If that's the case, Kirun, then it is disappointing. That's a shitload of production/editing fuckups.

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Unless it's intentional. Marty also warned Rust twice about twisting a story to lead to your own narrative. That's three times in seven episodes it was brought up. Not sure if I can give Nicky P that much credit, but it's something to consider.

Either way, if it werent for these images being slowed down, who the fuck would even catch these simularities? If that's how this show was intended to be viewed, than THAT is what I would consider shitty writing.

Kirun_sl said:

Man, you are doing exactly what Fuck and Suck accused Rust of - twisting/leading things to fit your own narrative. Another reason why this show is so goddamn good.

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So lets just get this straight, you're siding with fuck and suck idiots that couldn't dig up a lead even with all the resources Rust lacked? Okay.

That is why this show is so great, though. It's essentially saying most people can't see even the obvious like Rust does. And at every opportunity it extols his ability to make these connections, while people like fuck and suck sit there and pull on their dicks, clueless (And the show literally denigrates these people). And then the creator has the audacity to turn to the audience and say "no no,, don't make the connections that I'm extolling in the show, even with these ham fisted and obvious clues-that's justsilly! Be more like fuck and suck, don't over think it!"

lol this is why it feels like he's trolling with his interviews. And I don't even disagree with you, as I said in the first post, I can see it going both ways--I'm just saying, I see the manipulation leading the audience around. Blaming it on the audience? Is weak. It's OBVIOUS why people think the way they do. Neither side in this should feel like the case is open and shut; but both do. Either the writer fucked up, and is now using post production to try and explain himself (Which is a terrible trait for an author) or he's having a bit of fun with everyone.

(And as I said below; my main issue is that in a "realistic" show, foreshadowing should be used to clearly explain later events. This foreshadowing though was ambiguous enough to lead to two different but plausible explanations--that's bad foreshadowing to me.)

Kirun_sl said:

Now we're trotting out the drawings that Marty flipped through(which people slowed down frame by frame again and is the only reason why you think it's now somehow "connected")depict the exact murals in the school? It couldn't be that they just had a bunch of random props with "cult/yellow king/carcosa" shit on it

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Uhh the fuck? The dolls and the drawings were center screen during close ups. That shit wasn't background neckbear info. Again, is it possible? Sure. It's possible. It's just as possible that the guy tried to use some ham fisted symbolism, was shocked by how in depth his audience was, and is now professing that it's the audiences fault that his conveyance failed. Or it's possible he set the scenes up to leave audiences guessing down multiple paths, so he could create buzz about the show, and not have it mean really much at all outside of being cat nip for the fans.

Like I said, I can believe your version. I just remain unconvinced that it deserves as much faith as has been thrown around here.

It's not all from slowed down, frame-by-frame shots though. The daughter drew some fucked up shit, had a configuration of dolls similar to the 5:1::men:girl shit we've been seeing in like...every episode, talked about not wanting to get grandpa to help with something, getting double teamed in a car. Individually, these mean nothing. But there is certainly a pattern here. I'm not saying I'm convinced the grandpa is part of this (which is a big leap given what we've seen of him) or that Marty's daughter is a victim of the cult in some way, but there has been far too much screen time devoted to this for it to mean nothing.

StoiCynic_sl said:

Unless it's intentional. Marty also warned Rust twice about twisting a story to lead to your own narrative. That's three times in seven episodes it was brought up. Not sure if I can give Nicky P that much credit, but it's something to consider.

Either way, if it werent for these images being slowed down, who the fuck would even catch these simularities? If that's how this show was intended to be viewed, than THAT is what I would consider shitty writing.

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I saw both of the ones discussed without it being slowed down. These shots weren't Imjur neck beard shots, they were front and center. Ones I would consider imjur neck beard shots would be the spiral drawing, and the tulips--Those were background images and never had a shot reserved just for them (And so I'd more readily believe they were just coincidence or mistakes).

These shots? They were obvious attempts at manipulation. The thing is? They weren't very good at it, because it lead the audience into two completely different BUT believable directions (IE Marty is putting his own spin on things vs Daughter got raped.)--and when symbolism in a "realistic" show ends up being that ambiguous? I find it to bebadsymbolism. (Good symbolism is just simple foreshadowing. Again, for this genre, since the director has been in like a dozen interviews reminding us this is a gritty/realistic show.)

The people that are absolutely sure what the symbolism meant? Seem odd to me when I find both arguments pretty compelling.

about lawnmower man's(Childress?) scars, when the 2 black detectives rolled up on him asking for directions in that angle you could not see his scars, then when they left the camera panned around so the sun was at a different angle on his face and you could clearly see those scars. that was the show explaining, that YES he is THAT guy and that his scars while visible would not be visible from where Rust was when he was asking him about the school back in 95. that part was very straightforward and nobody should be guessing about it. the drawings Hart's daughter made were not some eagle eyed Lost detective's screengrab. that scene was focused on those images and they all match whats been shown in the rituals. as well as the dolls.

You guys are talking about the dick pic drawings yes? You guys all instantly made a connection with the faces the little girl drew and the faces in the picture several episodes later? If so kudos to you guys cause I sure as shit didn't and hardly doubt I am the only one. And to be clear I was not referring to the dolls. Yes they were blatent.

Just wanna clarify, I was fully on board with all this speculation up until last Sunday so it's not as if I think you are all nut's. Given we only have one episode left to tie up these loose ends, paired with Nic P's statements, I am merely drawing the most plausable conclusion as I see it.

Rust makes mistakes. He told Marty he was carrying him while all along Marty was defending Rust from management and the other officers. Marty would say, yah, he's an asshole, but he's good at what he does and people love Marty so they let it be. Rust told Marty he didn't need him while all the while he did. Rust would've never gotten to the case records without Marty.

Rust is like his namesake, he eats away at those around him, but mostly himself. And all because his daughter was killed.

Rust said they were bad me but that's wrong too. The are good, but flawed men trying to do the right thing.

Really need to do a prediction contest like we did with Breaking Bad. Winner gets Yellow King title!

i dont think anyone here wants to be the yellow king.

cept maybe sam deathwalker

Alex_sl said:

It's not all from slowed down, frame-by-frame shots though. The daughter drew some fucked up shit, had a configuration of dolls similar to the 5:1::men:girl shit we've been seeing in like...every episode, talked about not wanting to get grandpa to help with something, getting double teamed in a car. Individually, these mean nothing. But there is certainly a pattern here. I'm not saying I'm convinced the grandpa is part of this (which is a big leap given what we've seen of him) or that Marty's daughter is a victim of the cult in some way, but there has been far too much screen time devoted to this for it to mean nothing.

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Or it's just a commentary on how much your life can affect those around you, especially your children. Why does ithaveto have some deeper meaning? Because of some vague symbolism(seriously, we're talking about 2 scenes with very little time devoted to each)? Because of one scene with some dolls, which could just be a continuity error? It could also be a child's interpretation of a "car crash". Woman dead/injured, bystanders, paramedics attempting to offer aid. Because of a few brief shots of a notebook, that supposedly has some sort of "connection", when picked apart frame by frame(I didn't even notice it on the first viewing. But, I guess that's just me not "seeing the obvious". Or me just not doing a frame by frame analysis of every shot)? You're searching for some deeper "connection", because you want it to be there. You want it to fit your narrative. You want to feel like you weren't just chasing red herrings, hoping it wasn't truly that simple.

Now, I think either way the shows ends is fucking brilliant. If it ends leaving the daughter stuff completely ambiguous(I believe it will, because there's nothing really there, except conjecture), it proves how people will form a story to fit a narrative they want to see. If it ends with the daughter stuff being deeper, it shows how people can ignore things that are right under their nose.

A prediction of what? We know lawnmower man is the scarred man. Any prediction of who the Yellow King is would just be a guess. There has been zero evidence shown to us concerning his identity.

I think all of this being a commentary on how much your life can affect those around you and wanting things seen on screen to fit a narrative is a far deeper meaning than simple causation. There's nothing deep about thinking a girl was sexually molested as a child because she's a sex fiend at a young age. Except for maybe the penis that made her that way.

Alex_sl said:

I think all of this being a commentary on how much your life can affect those around you and wanting things seen on screen to fit a narrative is a far deeper meaning than simple causation. There's nothing deep about thinking a girl was sexually molested as a child because she's a sex fiend at a young age. Except for maybe the penis that made her that way.

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I agree. The same can be said for a daughter neglected by her womanizing father though, and that is far more common. Shit, if it wasn't for girls with daddy issues I would barely ever get laid.

well the daughter didnt just become a sex fiend at 8 years old, her entire demeanor changed as well. she started acting like a dick to her family. yes, all that could be just kids growing up, but i dont think that is what happened.

This debate is a flat circle. Sunday can't come soon enough.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

well the daughter didnt just become a sex fiend at 8 years old, her entire demeanor changed as well. she started acting like a dick to her family. yes, all that could be just kids growing up, but i dont think that is what happened.

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Are you now an expert on what Hart's daughter was like prior to the couple of 15 second scenes that you say indicate some involvement in the Carcosa cult rape/murders? You're really stretching this thin.

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

How did she become a sex fiend at 8 Maester Chuk? Was it by drawing a couple of dicks?

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the dick drawings and gangbanging dolls was just a result of her experiences being molested by her gramps