Vanguard - I don't give a fuck if it's dead, It's still brown as fuck (Download link in 1st post)

Secrets said:

It's effectively impossible to recreate the game as it was, yes.

Emulating the netcode and such? Perfectly acceptable. It just won't have the exact data or combat formulas, might be missing spawns, etc. A lot of that is lost to time, or locked in Jenn Chan's server closet over at Daybreak Games.

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The open persistent world experience was first in it's class, but the appetite for Vanguard lies in it's gameplay. It was the closest to the WoW combat system, like an improved WoW, which has never been done before in another MMO and have it actually be fun. Vanguard combat was fun.

When they say impossible, they refer to the complexities of VG and a mountain of data that would need to be guessworked, essentially the same as recreating core gameplay. At some point this project has to begin to create what amounts to a brand new game from scratch in terms of gameplay. Which can be good or bad.

Secrets said:

It's effectively impossible to recreate the game as it was, yes.

Emulating the netcode and such? Perfectly acceptable. It just won't have the exact data or combat formulas, might be missing spawns, etc. A lot of that is lost to time, or locked in Jenn Chan's server closet over at Daybreak Games.

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For laughs of course, what might someone get slapped with if they did a closet raid with a thumb drive for that stuff. Wouldn't it just be a DB dump? Schema and data?


Federal pound me in the ass
prison? Pick up trash with Chris Brown?

Nirgon said:

For laughs of course, what might someone get slapped with if they did a closet raid with a thumb drive for that stuff. Wouldn't it just be a DB dump? Schema and data?


Federal pound me in the ass
prison? Pick up trash with Chris Brown?

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I really don't know. That's actually kind of terrifying to think about, honestly - just having someone break into a server closet somewhere and take the server and code, with no accountability on who did it and where it ended up. These places don't normally have security at all during the night, and if you don't harm anyone on tresspassing and cover your tracks, there's only security footage and it's akin to someone robbing a convenience store in terms of tracking the person.

If you do end up getting caught, I mean, you'd be charged with grand larceny if you don't return it in the same day. If you make a copy and then return the property intact? I don't actually think that's anything other that a misdemeanor, they'd have a long legal battle to prove its worth and even harder that you used that information to defraud them. If you operate a non-profit emulation project, you couldn't prove with intent to defraud either.

If you access the computer, that's its own rules in the CFAA. You might be hit under the unauthorized access to a machine provision of the CFAA, and it depends on how valuable Daybreak or its parent companies value the game.
EQ, for example, is a $40 million USD IP. You could argue that accessing the game's source code would be a offense level 22 violation because that's the statue for the IP itself.


With vanguard, It's also going to be hard for the company to prove the IP's worth, given it's not currently in use in a product, and is pining for the fjords in a closet somewhere.

Definitely a felony if it's across state lines, so larceny would have to be in state, but you'd have to check California state code for trespassing guidelines, and also the CFAA could upgrade your actions to a felony if value is proven.

Why the fuck are you considering this again?

I say go for it, Nirgon ! Trying to steal the Vanguard database.... they'd probably just send you for a psyche eval. Only real risk is if they see your hopium posts in the Pantheon thread they'd probably forcibly commit you. Just stick to Vanguard crazy, not Pantheon crazy, and you'll be a-okay.

little bit of mad cuz brad, lil bit of trolleying

The main thing is getting a tip on where the Vanguard server is being kept,

and if there are offline copies of the DB available on other work station computers that were worked on by senior developers during the period VG was live.

If the DB was allowed to be copied to work stations to be maintained (offline) that could possibly open a lot of avenues to get the DB.

If everything was done on the server itself and online work only, then there is only one piece of hardware that has the DB. And it's kept where Matrix Online and other retired MMOs are.

The asking price for VG would be around 4.5 million I estimate since they have so many losses to recoup on that project. Without the massive red, you might be able to pick it up for 2 million if they were trying to be rid of it, which they aren't.

I think if you were to cosplay as a halfer rogue with some cool raid set gear and do some vanguard specific emotes at the security cameras, they'd be cool with it and just laugh it off.

What reason do they have to not good will a community and release the code? Like what if the internet made a petition? Could we guilt those turds into a release?

Punko said:

That would be officially admitting the game is dead and the code has zero commercial value.

Which is the case of course, but somewhere someone is still hoping to drag some money out of it.

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It's not the code that is ever in consideration here. It's the intellectual property and idea that they could sell the codebase, db, assets, and IP to someone who could make another 'vanguard'.

It's 100% impractical. But, that's why. Some bean counter along the way decided it'd be better to try than to not try.

And realistically, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Breakdown said:

What reason do they have to not good will a community and release the code? Like what if the internet made a petition? Could we guilt those turds into a release?

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1) Smedley was the only one who cared about Brad enough to entertain a community-driven petition

2) We can't get enough signatures to make current Darkpaw/Daybreak Games executives care


The emotional resonance of such a petition, were it to get a significant amount of signatures,
was completely lost the moment Smedley left the company.


3) It's all moot, as Smedley would have simply emailed the DB to the VGemu project upon request after Brad's passing with a simple plea and good explanation.

The moment for a benevolent petition, or request to Brad's good friend Smedley to keep Brad's vision alive-- that opportunity has long passed.

It's up to someone now with access-- a strong belief that Vanguard IS Brad's magnum opus, that it was the last open world game of its kind, never to be imitated, and that it is fully deserving of full emulation in Brad's memory.

Who's going to do the right thing?

Get a job. Scope it out for a couple weeks, then pull a Snowden.

Would Daybreak even give a shit if the source code and tools got leaked? I doubt it.

Lunis said:

Would Daybreak even give a shit if the source code and tools got leaked? I doubt it.

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They don't care, and would never even find out about it. Rogean on P99 fought rumors for years that the starting point for PEQ and the P99 DB (since it was closed work) was a leaked DB. It's never been proven one way or another AFAIK. Whoever snatches the DB/source and tools could just sit on them for a year to disconnect themselves from any potential connection if they were worried about a forensic investigation (even assuming Daybreak gives a shit to investigate whether VGemu got a bunch of leaked files or not, that's a huge leap).

By just taking it and sitting on it, you basically reduce your exposure in the event anyone cares, and make it more impossible to peg who actually pilfered it should there be any investigation.

Who does care are the individuals currently employed by Darkpaw/Daybreak that worked on the Vanguard project (several) that need job security and would prefer not to take any risks. Especially as many of them are aging well into their 40's now.

I won't name any names, but there are a handful of former Vanguard devs and present Daybreak employees that are aware of the VGEmu's plight. They are sympathetic to it.

But they're unwilling to pull a Snowden. Hopefully that is subject to change, sooner than later.

This project deserves full emulation in Brad's memory.

jayrebb said:

They don't care, and would never even find out about it. Rogean on P99 fought rumors for years that the starting point for PEQ and the P99 DB (since it was closed work) was a leaked DB. It's never been proven one way or another AFAIK. Whoever snatches the DB/source and tools could just sit on them for a year to disconnect themselves from any potential connection if they were worried about a forensic investigation (even assuming Daybreak gives a shit to investigate whether VGemu got a bunch of leaked files or not, that's a huge leap).

By just taking it and sitting on it, you basically reduce your exposure in the event anyone cares, and make it more impossible to peg who actually pilfered it should there be any investigation.

Who does care are the individuals currently employed by Darkpaw/Daybreak that worked on the Vanguard project (several) that need job security and would prefer not to take any risks. Especially as many of them are aging well into their 40's now.

I won't name any names, but there are a handful of former Vanguard devs and present Daybreak employees that are aware of the VGEmu's plight. They are sympathetic to it.

But they're unwilling to pull a Snowden. Hopefully that is subject to change, sooner than later.

This project deserves full emulation in Brad's memory.

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P99 was not leaked. None of the EQEmu community has anything from the server side in terms of 'stuff from Daybreak'.

ax_classic is the starting point for P99. It was a database made by Angelox, and forked a tcsmyworld (PEQ predecessor) database that all emus used to pretty much divert from in ~2007.

Was listening to an interview with Kevin McPherson who was a lead programmer on VG and now is working on Ashes of Creation. He said some interesting things. First, that the unreal 2.5 engine was really the only game in town for an off the shelf engine at the time & if they picked a different engine it would have been even worse.

Also, the mistake they made with VG was making the world huge first & then adding all the systems near the end. He contrasted that with EQ where they first added Qeynos - got it working alone with some systems. Then added Qeynos Hills w/more systems, then Blackburrow, etc. Creating a microcosm of the game with all the systems in place, then they made the world big.

VG's systems were all made independently of each other & when they added them all to this giant world a whole host of issues came up that they hadn't anticipated. It was one of the reasons the performance was so bad at launch. But even with all that he said he still loved the game and played the hell out of it with many different characters.

Lunis said:

Was listening to an interview with Kevin McPherson who was a lead programmer on VG and now is working on Ashes of Creation. He said some interesting things. First, that the unreal 2.5 engine was really the only game in town for an off the shelf engine at the time & if they picked a different engine it would have been even worse.

Also, the mistake they made with VG was making the world huge first & then adding all the systems near the end. He contrasted that with EQ where they first added Qeynos - got it working alone with some systems. Then added Qeynos Hills w/more systems, then Blackburrow, etc. Creating a microcosm of the game with all the systems in place, then they made the world big.

VG's systems were all made independently of each other & when they added them all to this giant world a whole host of issues came up that they hadn't anticipated. It was one of the reasons the performance was so bad at launch. But even with all that he said he still loved the game and played the hell out of it with many different characters.

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Link to the interview?

Did get confirmation the DB is available on the server only, and that'd be where Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and other retired projects would be located.

There are no copies of the VG DB, just the server.


Take the entire piece of hardware and just vacate with it, then get it to someone safe. Don't bother trying to log in or copy the DB or booting it up inside unless you know what you are doing. Do not attempt to locate the VG DB.


Just jack the whole fucking thing.


This is Brad's magnum opus.

Here's the interview. He starts talking about VG around 1:12:00. The rest of the interview is about early EQ and Ashes. He even worked on Shadowbane.