Weight Loss Thread

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Ossoi

Potato del Grande
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No offense taken - I wouldn't be in this thread if I wasn't fat.

The source for the info I stated is a professional body builder, pro lifter, and PhD in protein synthesis (Dr. Layne Norton). So, not being a dick here, but I'll trust that he's got a better understanding of the science than a forum bro.

I was actually going to write in my last reply "hey, don't be too harsh on Dandai, he's taken the trouble to research his diet and takes the trouble to write well thought out posts"

Like I said earlier, you can implement carb cycling at a later stage if you feel its necessary.
 

Ossoi

Potato del Grande
<Rickshaw Potatoes>
17,887
8,780
. My weight isn't dropping very fast but my body is slimming down,

.
Don't worry about the scale. The scale has the ability to completely deflate your mood - you can do everything perfectly for a week, diet, exercise and step on the scale at the end of the week to see it's barely moved or even gone up.

Track your scale weight by all means but don't focus on it. Photos taken in the same spot and body measurements are better than the scale for tracking progress
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Track your scale weight by all means but don't focus on it. Photos taken in the same spot and body measurements are better than the scale for tracking progress
Its like in Starcraft where people think higher APM is an appropriate way to track an increase in skill. And while faster APM does generally go hand in hand with increasing your skill level at the end of the day wins and losses matter more than obsessing over your APM.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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No offense taken - I wouldn't be in this thread if I wasn't fat.

The source for the info I stated is a professional body builder, pro lifter, and PhD in protein synthesis (Dr. Layne Norton). So, not being a dick here, but I'll trust that he's got a better understanding of the science than a forum bro.

It seems like you're drawing some of the correct conclusions based on posts after this but just know, a person who is at ~10% body fat is playing a different game when trying to build muscle because they are actually trying to GAIN weight in the form of ONLY lean mass. Trying to emulate someone who is in great shape is certainly understandable but it's also kind of a fool's errand when they are min/maxing like that guy.

You aren't actually eating at a "deficit" while you're losing weight in most cases. You're just eating at a deficit compared to your current equilibrium because you've been eating at an excess for so long. If you're at a weight that maintains with a 3000 calorie diet and your true healthy weight equilibrium would be closer to 1800 calories eating 2300 calories a day still isn't really a deficit. You'll lose weight, and at a decent clip for a while too, but you're still technically eating in excess. You'll have plenty of energy to workout, forget about looking at the cycles and macros. You don't really need to do that unless you're trying to get some ridiculous physique. Just eat the appropriate amount of healthy food.

P.S that guy isn't saying you can't build strength while in ketosis. He's pointing out his methods for the most efficient way go about it.
 

Pops

Avatar of War Slayer
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21,317
There is no reason for anyone to be on a keto diet long term. And yes, I track my macros. And yes, I'm leaner than you.

No I didn't bother watching that video, keto-krazy-kultists annoy me. But I did click and read the summary. For fat loss and muscle building purposes then long term keto = full retard. The best approach is fat+protein on rest days and pre workout, and protein+carbs post workout. The carbs can be from whole foods like sweet potato, rice..or in the form of simple sugars.

I love how keto idiots seem to think a diet which says vegetables are bad, is legit, rofl
So you judge something with out bothering to watch. That guy is not one of your "keto-kultists".

Since you state you are lean, let's see.
 

Pops

Avatar of War Slayer
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It's fair to say that because I'm still fat that I don't have the basics mastered like the pros. I know body builders are on another level and that video is more instructive for someone needing to work out the minor tweaks that's gonna get them show ready at 3% body fat. In that video he details the "perfect" and what you guys are saying is that I don't need perfect - I just need "good" and that'll be enough to get results.

I whole heartedly agree.

That's why I'm restricting my diet, tracking what I eat, and consistently going to the gym. My weight isn't dropping very fast but my body is slimming down, so I'm gonna keep on doing this until that stops happening. (It occurs to me that I should start taping myself for objective data instead of feels data.)

I only linked the video to address Khane's accusations that I didn't understand what I was talking about. And to be honest, that too is a fair assessment - I'm not an expert (if I was it's unlikely that I'd be this fat). However, Dr. Norton is an expert, so I'll let him do the understanding and hope some of it rubs off on me.
Meanwhile as one fattie to another (weighed 300 lbs in high school) keep at it. None of us are the same, do what works for you.
 

Dandai

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P.S that guy isn't saying you can't build strength while in ketosis. He's pointing out his methods for the most efficient way go about it.
Admittedly, I didn't watch the video again before I posted so I couldn't remember exactly what he said; I just knew I'd heard him discussing ketogenic diets before. Since you say he doesn't talk about it there, I did a quick search, and he goes into more detailhere.

I'll spoiler the relevant part below.

Carbohydrates have probably gotten the worst reputation of the macronutrients due to the ketogenic dieting rave. Ketogenic dieting refers to reducing carbohydrate intake to practically nothing, while simultaneously raising fat and protein intake. With little glucose for the brain to utilize for energy, the body will begin producing ketones.

Ketones are by-products of fat oxidation and the brain can use ketones for energy. This does indeed have a potent fat burning effect, as insulin levels will be severely reduced due to lack of carbohydrate intake. Low insulin levels correlate with high rates of fat oxidation.

Indeed, the ketogenic diet may be the single best way to lose the maximum amount of body fat in the shortest amount of time. However, if you will quickly refer to our goals during a pre-contest diet you will notice that maintaining muscle is number one on our list, with fat loss second.

If one has not properly scheduled enough time to lose body fat and they are in need of drastic measures, then using a ketogenic diet may be their only choice in order to become contest-ready in time. Unfortunately, they will not maintain an optimum amount of muscle mass.

For those who have given themselves ample time to prepare, I do not suggest using a ketogenic diet. Instead, I recommend reducing carbohydrates, but keeping them high enough to possess the muscle sparing benefits of carbohydrates while still losing body fat.

Carbohydrates have probably gotten the worst reputation of the macronutrients due to the ketogenic dieting rave. Ketogenic dieting refers to reducing carbohydrate intake to practically nothing, while simultaneously raising fat and protein intake. With little glucose for the brain to utilize for energy, the body will begin producing ketones.

Ketones are by-products of fat oxidation and the brain can use ketones for energy. This does indeed have a potent fat burning effect, as insulin levels will be severely reduced due to lack of carbohydrate intake. Low insulin levels correlate with high rates of fat oxidation.

Indeed, the ketogenic diet may be the single best way to lose the maximum amount of body fat in the shortest amount of time. However, if you will quickly refer to our goals during a pre-contest diet you will notice that maintaining muscle is number one on our list, with fat loss second.

If one has not properly scheduled enough time to lose body fat and they are in need of drastic measures, then using a ketogenic diet may be their only choice in order to become contest-ready in time. Unfortunately, they will not maintain an optimum amount of muscle mass.

For those who have given themselves ample time to prepare, I do not suggest using a ketogenic diet. Instead, I recommend reducing carbohydrates, but keeping them high enough to possess the muscle sparing benefits of carbohydrates while still losing body fat.

LEARN MORE ABOUT KETOGENIC DIETS...

There are several main reasons that I recommend retaining carbohydrates. The first reason being that carbohydrates are much more muscle sparing than fats during times of stress when glucose becomes a primary source of fuel (i.e. anaerobic exercise, injury, infection, etc) 3.

The muscle-sparing effects of carbohydrates occur via several different mechanisms. When the body is in a low energy state, it may try to produce energy by converting amino acids to glucose. Carbohydrates prevent this since they can be easily broken down (and converted if need be) to glucose molecules. Carbohydrates then spare dietary protein from oxidation and these proteins can be stored rather than oxidized.

Carbohydrates are also muscle-sparing during exercise. When one lifts heavy weights, the primary pathway that is used to produce ATP (cellular energy currency) is the anaerobic or glycolytic pathway (as the name implies this pathway operates in the absence of oxygen). The only substrate for this pathway is glucose, which can be obtained from dietary carbohydrates or by breaking down glycogen (the cell's stored form of glucose).

If one is on a ketogenic or extreme "low carb" diet however, the body will need to utilize another source to synthesize glucose from. Since glycogen levels are low on a ketogenic diet, the body will actually convert amino acids to glucose and this glucose will be used in the anaerobic pathway to produce ATP. These amino acids will come from dietary protein, amino acids from the cellular amino acid pool, and from muscle tissue. The latter situation is where one would experience muscle loss. Dietary protein would be sacrificed for ATP production and the depleted amino acid pool would not bode well for protein synthesis rates, thus causing a net loss in muscle mass.

Carbohydrates are also muscle sparing because they are a cause of insulin release. Now I know your thinking, "but Layne, you just said in your intro that low insulin levels were great for fat burning!?" Yes, you are correct. I did indeed say that low insulin levels are good for fat burning. Insulin inhibits lipolytic (fat burning) activity and must be kept low if one wishes to burn a maximal amount of fat.

However, the pesky re-occurring theme of maintaining muscle prevents us from totally excluding insulin from our pre-contest diet arsenal, as insulin happens to be one of the most anabolic/anti-catabolic hormones in the body. Insulin binding to the cell membrane causes all sorts of reactions in your body that are beneficial to maintaining and gaining muscle tissue. Insulin inhibits protein breakdown and amino acid oxidation, thus promoting muscle maintenance or gain 1,2.

Insulin also has an antagonist (inhibitory) affect with regards to several catabolic hormones, including cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone that is released during times of stress such as dieting, lifting, injury, etc. Cortisol produces glucose by breaking down proteins, including muscle tissue. Cortisol is the primary catabolic hormone that is released when one lifts or does any kind of activity.

Insulin release inhibits the activity of cortisol by preventing its release from the pancreas, thus sparing muscle tissue from cortisol's catabolic effects. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that long-term exposure of cells to ketones (i.e., ketogenic diet) retard insulin-induced activation of the insulin surface receptor 4. This causes one to become extremely sensitive to carbohydrates when they begin ingesting them again after they finish dieting and could lead to an undesired post diet fat gain.

Carbohydrates act to maintain muscle mass while dieting by maintaining cellular osmotic pressure and cell volume. Cell size is an indicator of the "state" that the body is in. When cells are of large volume, it signals that the body is in a fed state. When cell volume is low it signals that the body is in a starved state. Without delving too far into the science behind this, trust me when I say that you would like your body to think it is in a fed state as this will increase the levels of fat burning hormones and anabolic hormones.

Cell size also indicates the anabolic state of the cell. When cell volume is high, protein synthesis rates increase. If cell volume drops, then protein synthesis levels drop 5,6,7,8. It is easy to infer we would like to maintain cell volume, especially when dieting. The problem with extreme low carbohydrate diets is they cause severe reduction in cell size.

The body stores carbohydrates inside cells as glycogen. For every gram of glycogen stored, the body stores around 2.7 g of water. Therefore, cells that have greater glycogen levels will also have more volume. One can see then how low carbohydrate diets severely decrease cell size due to severe glycogen depletion. Concluding, carbohydrates help maintain muscle by increasing cell volume.

One more issue to consider is performance. If you refer to the goals of a pre-contest diet, you will see that number three maintains that you must keep a high level of intensity in the gym. This is important for several reasons. If performance begins to suffer, then a person will undoubtedly lose strength. This could lead to a subsequent loss of muscle mass due to decreased stimulation from a decreased training overload. Therefore, it is important that performance be kept at an optimal level.

Low glycogen levels have been associated with increased fatigue and decreased performance in athletes (endurance, strength, power output, etc). Several studies have shown that consuming adequate amounts of carbohydrates before, during, and after exercise may attenuate the increased fatigue and increase performance.9-14

It is worth noting that one such study concluded that "the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggests that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement." It can therefore be concluded that an adequate supply of carbohydrates is crucial for maintaining performance and for proper muscle recovery.

You're right in that he's not saying it's impossible, but he is pretty damning of the ketogenic diet insofar as building and maintaining muscle mass is concerned.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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You're right in that he's not saying it's impossible, but he is pretty damning of the ketogenic diet insofar as building and maintaining muscle mass is concerned.
If he really is saying that he's basing it on bad science. Remember, there is a massive difference between someone who is 10 lbs overweight with a substantial amount of muscle mass trying to cut and someone who is severely overweight with little to no muscle mass trying to lose weight.

I'm living proof that you can lose a ton of weight on a ketogenic diet while simultaneously becoming strong as fuck. In fact I'm doing it again right now. I took before pics too so I can post some before and afters in about 3-4 months.
 

Dandai

<WoW Guild Officer>
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I'm happy to hear that it's working well for you, though I don't understand how his scientific explanation is "bad science" simply because you're doing what he says is sub-optimal (but not impossible) and getting results.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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I'm happy to hear that it's working well for you, though I don't understand how his scientific explanation is "bad science" simply because you're doing what he says is sub-optimal (but not impossible) and getting results.
Because everything in nutritional science is under scrutiny. There is no "fact". For every scientific study or medical doctor who says one thing, you can find another who says the opposite. Who do you trust? You're putting entirely too much faith in that guy. Every single day you hear about what is or isn't "good for you" based on a study. What's fact today is fable tomorrow. It's been happening for centuries.

Case in point:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cycl...genic_diet.htm
Mythbusting: Training On a Keto Diet | Ruled Me

There are linked studies and doctor information in both of those articles.

The biggest mistake you can make with this kind of stuff is taking ANYTHING that ANYONE says as gospel, regardless of their credentials. The human body is an amazing thing and unless you're at some godly level of performance where it's almost completely impossible to see any gains your willpower is more important than anything else. Push yourself and you'll succeed.

EDIT: By the way I'm not attacking you're approach or methodology. If you stick with it it's going to work for you. I don't know how it came to be but weight loss, strength training and everything in fitness is a religion, and instead of just doing what you like and what works for you all these "professionals" and even doctors make it a point to attack everything that doesn't follow their philosophy
 

Ossoi

Potato del Grande
<Rickshaw Potatoes>
17,887
8,780
I'm living proof that you can lose a ton of weight on a ketogenic diet while simultaneously becoming strong as fuck.
I'm not saying you can't lose fat and burn muscle on a keto diet, I'm asking "why would you want to?"

I believe that it's very easy for people to lose weight on keto and develop an irrational fear of adding carbs back to their diet. As you get leaner then your ability to handle carbs improves which is why you should start adding them back to your diet to find the sweet spot of carb intake. The carb cycling approach I use has low carb days and high carb days, this way you get the best of both worlds.

As for adding muscle, that requires increased calories. I would much rather get those extra calories from increased portions of rice, sweet potato, a carb powder in my post workout shake and the occasional sugary treat, instead of trying to get those calories from cream, butter etc.

The other point to mention is adherence - putting people on keto diets and expecting them to avoid social occasions and carb based foods/drinks 100% of the time is not wise. People on keto diets tend to see a day or two of carbs as totally derailing their process and resetting their keto status, which can make it harder to get back on the wagon.

And no pro keto person here has answered my question of "HOW CAN VEGETABLES BE BAD".

And yes, there are lots of factions in fitness. Every study that disagrees with someones personal stance will be rebuffed and dissected as much as possible, and every study that agrees with someones stance will of course be a model study!

The best way to assess someones credibility is by their results, not the results they get themselves but the results of other people who follow their methods or get coached by them.
 

ubiquitrips

Lord Nagafen Raider
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And no pro keto person here has answered my question of "HOW CAN VEGETABLES BE BAD".
I think this is just because most people take it off the deep end. When I was younger I did low carb and did the no fruit / veggies thing because they were 'bad'.

However, now that I am older and wiser, when I did Keto vegetables weren't bad necessarily or taught to be bad from my internet reading. Just had to watch overall carb intake. A lot of folks aren't as attached to veggies as a food in general so they are easy to cut out. For me I still ate tons of the usual summer squash, broccoli, cauliflower, etc. and limited sweet potato, corn, and other higher carb veggies to once or twice a week. This applied to fruit as well as I still made room for berries etc.

Of course, I wasn't as hard core as some folks and maintained around 50 grams of net carbs per day which gave me some wiggle room.
 

Dandai

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EDIT: By the way I'm not attacking you're approach or methodology. If you stick with it it's going to work for you. I don't know how it came to be but weight loss, strength training and everything in fitness is a religion, and instead of just doing what you like and what works for you all these "professionals" and even doctors make it a point to attack everything that doesn't follow their philosophy
Fair enough. Nutrition is definitely treated as a religion to a lot of people - blind adherence to the dogma that suits them and their lifestyle choices best. At the end of the day, sustainability of a routine that works for you is what's going to be best (because if you don't keep doing it/make that lifestyle change it's just a temporary bandaid).

The reason I like this guy (Layne Norton) so much is because he has a deep appreciation for facts and not strictly adhering to any given philosophy, especially conventional wisdom. Yeah, if you look hard enough you can probably find a study that supports any belief, and in his videos and interviews he talks about those junk studies a lot. When he feels that a belief or study's popularity is warranted (meat gives you cancer, sustained state cardio, etc) he systematically addresses the details and minutiae of the study and talks about how it could've been improved or why their conclusion was off the mark - and he isn't shy to call out shortcomings in studies that support his philosophies either.

Anyway, like Ubiquitrips, I've mellowed out in my old age. People are gonna do what they feel is best for them, and that's fine by me. It's very rare for me to be personally offended or go out of my way to correct someone (though clearly I have a ways to go when it comes to someone telling me I'm wrong about something lol).

Thanks for the lively discussion, Khane.
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
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I'm not saying you can't lose fat and burn muscle on a keto diet, I'm asking "why would you want to?"

I believe that it's very easy for people to lose weight on keto and develop an irrational fear of adding carbs back to their diet. As you get leaner then your ability to handle carbs improves which is why you should start adding them back to your diet to find the sweet spot of carb intake. The carb cycling approach I use has low carb days and high carb days, this way you get the best of both worlds.

As for adding muscle, that requires increased calories. I would much rather get those extra calories from increased portions of rice, sweet potato, a carb powder in my post workout shake and the occasional sugary treat, instead of trying to get those calories from cream, butter etc.

The other point to mention is adherence - putting people on keto diets and expecting them to avoid social occasions and carb based foods/drinks 100% of the time is not wise. People on keto diets tend to see a day or two of carbs as totally derailing their process and resetting their keto status, which can make it harder to get back on the wagon.

And no pro keto person here has answered my question of "HOW CAN VEGETABLES BE BAD".

And yes, there are lots of factions in fitness. Every study that disagrees with someones personal stance will be rebuffed and dissected as much as possible, and every study that agrees with someones stance will of course be a model study!

The best way to assess someones credibility is by their results, not the results they get themselves but the results of other people who follow their methods or get coached by them.
I am not what you think I am. The ketosis portion of my diet is strictly during my weight loss phase and I do eat carbs and vegetables the entire time. I'm pro keto and I have never said vegetables are bad. Ever. You're referring to people who don't properly follow a ketogenic diet and pretend anything but bacon and mayonnaise is strictly forbidden. I am not one of those people. I'll be in ketosis on and off (because I'm bound to knock myself out of it on the weekend here and there) for 3 months until I've lost 25-30lbs and then I'll be out of ketosis. I eat about 50g of carbs a day, almost all coming from veggies and still maintain ketosis.
 

Itlan

Blackwing Lair Raider
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Ossoi you're spouting a lot of nonsense and anecdotal evidence.

No one who advocates keto from a scientific standpoint believes carbs are bad, nor do they think vegetables are bad. I ate nothing but fatty cuts of meat and vegetables when I did keto. You're supposed to have A LOT of vegetables, but it's limited to those high in fiber for the most part. So no, you can't have potatoes or bananas, but you can enjoy broccoli, asparagus, any green vegetable for the most part, and low sugar fruits like berries.