Weight Loss Thread

uh I'm not really sure about the low carb people being miserable, I've been pretty chill and happy for the few months I have been on it - that seems like a huge assumption. I agree a lot of the ideas behind bulletproof coffee is poor deductions made to sell product (especially the bean mold stuff), but its more or less a "fat bomb" - a high fat, low sugar, caffeinated concoction that provides fuel for your body. btw the reason for unsalted butter is that salt in coffee makes you do a literal spit-take, I once accidently made mine with salted butter and it was undrinkable. I like high fat, little cream, no sugar coffee a few times a week and whether I am fooling myself or not, it leaves me without an appetite for a long time. Maybe its a placebo, but this from a guy who works from home and used to snack-graze alllllllll day.

Here's why I like all this paleo/keto/low-carb stuff: I can stick with it without any extra effort or "concentration". When I was young I burned fat like an NBA player, could eat anything and everything and never lost my six packs. Just like my dad, as I have gotten older and now into my 40s I have noticed the little paunch developing and it becoming insanely difficult to lose weight. When you are used to scarfing down everything without care, it really is hard to just "count calories". I haven't counted calories at all and I just eat low carb, home-cooked food until I am full. I don't crave sweets or junk food. Maybe the whole thing is in my mind but the 10+ times in the past few years I have tried to lose a few pounds I was never able to stick even a month of not eating bad stuff, I would literally think about food all the time while exercising a lot and eating healthy.

Let me just stick to a few basic things (eggs, meat, spinach, kale, cheese, cream) and I don't think about food at all anymore while being very happy at losing a pound or so a week. I have no idea what I'll do when I hit my college weight but I think I can stick to a fairly low carb lifestyle for the rest of my life, the most important thing I feel like I have taken away is not to ever eat again all the shitty processed and high fructose foods like chips, candies, ice cream, juices, etc. I've foundhttp://reddit.com/r/ketogreat for inspiration, hundreds of people every week posting their success and my jaw drops at the people who have lost 50, 100, 200, etc lbs.http://reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestoriesis amazing tho in a reverse way, like "holy shit I don't ever want to get Alabama fat"

As a engineer my whole life I totally agree that weight loss is really an issue of thermodynamics, lose weight when calories in are less than calories consumed. But as an engineer ketogen also makes sense, I had no idea previously that your liver/pancreas/body burns carbs and proteins with glucose and insulin, and fat with ketones, and that your body can adapt to burn mostly fat which has the side bonus of keeping insulin levels flat all the time, which impacts the fuzzy idea of "cravings". That whole concept is just fascinating to me.

Elurin_sl said:

You're going to have to back that statement up with more than a YouTube video that doesn't say what you think it does. That video is talking about insulin resistant people, which I'll admit, could very well be anyone here trying to lose weight.

The problem is he says "You have no choice but to eat more, your hormones are telling you to!" Which is a guy (who's trying to sell his ideas) giving people an excuse for why it's not their own fault. Why is it impossible to eat less calories than your body wants? Because Dr. Lustig says so? Sorry, but that's bullshit. People have willpower to make changes. I have a hard time taking someone seriously when one of the firsts things they say is "We discovered a new hormone called leptin recently."

I also don't think any of us advocating calories in < calories out have ever advocated that the types of food you eat aren't important. Saying "what you eat" is more important than "how much you eat" is ridiculous though. So if I eat 4000 calories worth of whatever magical ratio of foods you say I should eat, that's better than eating my TDEE? Shit, the video I posted 6 posts before yours goes IN DEPTH into why it's important to have variety in your diet. The difference is I watch your videos, apparently you don't watch mine.

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That is quite an astonishing density of strawmen. I linked thewhole bookfor a reason, it is far more detailed and well cited. In a public discussion forum like this one brevity is a positive, not a negative.

Dr. Lustig is an extremely well respected and widely published pediatric neuro-endocrinologist. You should listen to what he says on the subject because obesity is his specific field of study and everything he says is backed up by significant amounts of peer-reviewed scientific evidence. I love how you jumped right to ad-hominem without even doing the most cursory Google search.

The obesity epidemic isn't caused by a nation of strongmen force-feeding themselves 4k Calories a day, it is full of people that eat too much without really wanting or meaning to. If you eat the right foods, it is extremely hard to downright impossible to overeat without intentionally doing so.

Elurin_sl said:

That's making an awfully big assumption that omega-3's (n-3) are necessarily "better" for you. Omega-6's (n-6) are important, it's just that the Western diet is heavier in 6 than 3, so most people are deficient. But if you're already getting enough 3, does it really make a difference what kind of butter you're eating? In fact, you could end up eating too much 3 and throwing off your ratio (the ideal ratio being 1:1).

By all means, eat grass fed butter because you think it tastes better or you think it's better for the cows or whatever. But to say that bulletproof coffee has to be made with grass fed butter because it's somehow incredibly superior is ridiculous. It's playing into the latest trend and it's not backed up by any science. I'd imagine if you actually investigated it, you'd find that absolutely nothing about bulletproof coffee is backed up by any real science.

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Listen, you are way, way out of your league here. If you had even the slightest clue or Googled for 5 seconds you'd know the the n-3:n-6 ratio in grass fed products is around 1:2, which still isn't the ideal 1:1 but gets you much closer than the15/1-16.7/1 found in modern western diets.

I don't know what the hell you are even arguing against, you said yourself you should be trying to hit a 1:1 ratio and then contradicted that by saying that grass-fed is some mindless trend. So which is it, do you want to balance your lipid intake or not? Pick a side, stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Fair enough. And I'm saying that those same people, if they want to, can count their calories and lose weight. If they have the desire to they can ignore hormones and still control their diet.

You're essentially arguing the same the same exact thing as I am, just that counting calories is unneccessary. I personally believe that you can still overeat no matter what you're eating. The exception being shit tons of vegetables since they provide so little in the way of calories, or a combination of lots of lean meat (chicken) and vegetables with no additional carbs. You will probably end up starving on that type of diet though.

In a world where youcancount calories, you probably should. At least for long enough so that you can estimate them in the future. That's why I oringinally said Ubiquitips should count calories religiously for a month so 1) he knows what his TDEE is, and 2) so he knows how much he's actually eating. The vast, vast majority of people haven't got a fucking clue how many calories they're consuming.

Deathwing_sl said:

Ok, what's the benefit of increased plasma and platelet? Does it make with worth the greatly increased cost of grass-fed animals? Or is it a benefit, but a marginal to almost useless one?

Not to purposely sound cold hearted, but how does empathy towards ruminants improve my biological health?

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The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids.The benefit is more than marginal, but not enough on its own if you keep eating a "Standard American Diet" but with grass-fed meat/dairy instead.

As for ruminant empathy specifically, that is outside the context of a weight loss thread. But, if you think eating sick animals (grain fed ruminants) has unintended consequences for your health then it might behoove (hehe) you to switch over. There are also sustainability, socio-economic, and environmental benefits to eating pastured animals. One reason I am against wide-spread vegetarianism is that it is far more ecologically destructive than a proper integrated food system.

Denaut_sl said:

Listen, you are way, way out of your league here. If you had even the slightest clue or Googled for 5 seconds you'd know the the n-3:n-6 ratio in grass fed products is around 1:2, which still isn't the ideal 1:1 but gets you much closer than the15/1-16.7/1 found in modern western diets.

I don't know what the hell you are even arguing against, you said yourself you should be trying to hit a 1:1 ratio and then contradicted that by saying that grass-fed is some mindless trend. So which is it, do you want to balance your lipid intake or not? Pick a side, stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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Ok, asshat. Now you're using POPULATION ratios when we're discussing individual diets. I could give a shit what the rest of the western diet looks like. The average person on a western diet is also fucking obese. We're talking about dieting here AWAY from that. As an example, me personally, I have a very balanced diet of PUFA's. So why should I go out of my way to eat expensive grass fed butter? If the rest of your diet is in check, grass fed is a mindless trend.

Either way, this is all because of the bulletproof coffee. Which also tells you to use coconut oil. A FUCKING OMEGA-6 FAT! So tell me again what the motherfucking point of the grass fed butter is if you're just throwing more omega-6's into it?

Elurin_sl said:

Fair enough. And I'm saying that those same people, if they want to, can count their calories and lose weight. If they have the desire to they can ignore hormones and still control their diet.

You're essentially arguing the same the same exact thing as I am, just that counting calories is unneccessary. I personally believe that you can still overeat no matter what you're eating. The exception being shit tons of vegetables since they provide so little in the way of calories, or a combination of lots of lean meat (chicken) and vegetables with no additional carbs. You will probably end up starving on that type of diet though.

In a world where youcancount calories, you probably should. At least for long enough so that you can estimate them in the future. That's why I oringinally said Ubiquitips should count calories religiously for a month so 1) he knows what his TDEE is, and 2) so he knows how much he's actually eating. The vast, vast majority of people haven't got a fucking clue how many calories they're consuming.

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I have lots of problems with the general guidance of Calorie counting. That isn't to say that you should never do it, there are certainly instances where I would actually advise it (bodybuilder dieting for a comp, wrestler trying to make weight) but none of those circumstances involve normal daily life.

My major problems are that calorie counting are that...

• It reinforces the idea that obesity is only "personal responsibility" rather than a public health issues. Personal responsibility is necessary but not sufficient.
• Forced Calories restriction is extremely difficult long term and doesn't do anything to address the underlying causes of metabolic disease, it only attempts to treat a single symptom.
• Furthers the misguided idea ofnutritionism

If you eat the right foods, it is extremely hard to downright impossible to overeat without intentionally doing so.

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Without getting involved in the retarded and rehashed debate currently going on, I think this is one of the best pieces of advice for people trying to live a healthy lifestyle (i.e not just lose weight, but improve overall health as well). I used to think it was bullshit that eating "right" would fill you up because I'd eat an apple between pizza roll binges and still be hungry. It wasn't until I switched to eating almost entirely fresh/raw ingredients that I realized it was true. Sure, eat junk now and then to enjoy life, but the bulk of what you eat should be wholesome, natural food that requires some kind of preparation/cooking.

Anyway, on a side note for anyone reading this thread, here is another big change I made in my life that really helped me get in shape:

Don't eat while you do another activity.

I used to cook and eat while I was watching TV, reading, or playing games and it always led to over eating, even when I was eating healthy and wasn't really hungry anymore. I've long since switched to making cooking and eating it's own distinct activity and I find that not only do I eat a proper amount (i.e eat until I'm not hungry anymore) but I enjoy it a lot more. I'm focused on what I'm cooking, paying attention to the flavors, seasonings, and doneness if I'm cooking meat. Also, since the focus of me being in the kitchen is to cook, I'm less likely to pop something in the microwave so I can get back to my TV show, book, etc.

Elurin_sl said:

Ok, asshat. Now you're using POPULATION ratios when we're discussing individual diets. I could give a shit what the rest of the western diet looks like. The average person on a western diet is also fucking obese. We're talking about dieting here AWAY from that. As an example, me personally, I have a very balanced diet of PUFA's. So why should I go out of my way to eat expensive grass fed butter? If the rest of your diet is in check, grass fed is a mindless trend.

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We aren't discussing your diet, we are discussing general advice for the population. Very relevant.

Either way, this is all because of the bulletproof coffee. Which also tells you to use coconut oil. A FUCKING OMEGA-6 FAT! So tell me again what the motherfucking point of the grass fed butter is if you're just throwing more omega-6's into it?

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At no point was I ever specifically talking about coffee, only grass-fed meat and dairy in general (which I specified in my original post). I finally Googled bulletproof coffee, and yes it is very clearly a stupid idea. It is beyond me why someone wouldn't just drink and enjoy their coffee the way they want, it is just a cup or 2 of coffee after all. I drink mine black anyway. Trying to "healthify" your coffee is dumb and just another example of nutritionism.

arkktheseaotter_sl said:

And there's also like zero chance that Ubiqutripsosjjdwidnwhateverthehell is going to change what he wants to do. People post here for justification, and he's getting it by people saying it sucks. In his mind its "I will show them!" So when he starts the diet and he's losing weight, in his mind he already won. What he doesn't realize is that he would lose weight doing anything because he's obese, and that's the point of my original post.

The Internet, where listening to a monk for fat loss advice, instead of the dozens and dozens of real experts who coach people, make YouTube videos, write articles, and so on is a good idea.

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You don't read, at all, do you or did you just stop at 'Go fuck yourself'? Just in case you missed it. I realize exactly what you are saying.

Ubiquitrips_sl said:

I am also not saying that the traditional approach of losing weight wouldn't work, or that the way I am trying to lose weight is better. I am saying that the way I have adopted works for me. I am also saying that a higher fat / protein diet that is low carb is not a fad. This high level diet type has been around for a long time.

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Also, you are correct. I will continue doing this. Not because you have a problem with it, but because it has been successful. Though, when I do hit my goal in the next 6-8 months I will take a picture with a bulletproof t-shirt on and a middle finger just for you buddy!

Denaut_sl said:

I have lots of problems with the general guidance of Calorie counting. That isn't to say that you should never do it, there are certainly instances where I would actually advise it (bodybuilder dieting for a comp, wrestler trying to make weight) but none of those circumstances involve normal daily life.

My major problems are that calorie counting are that...

• It reinforces the idea that obesity is only "personal responsibility" rather than a public health issues. Personal responsibility is necessary but not sufficient.
• Forced Calories restriction is extremely difficult long term and doesn't do anything to address the underlying causes of metabolic disease, it only attempts to treat a single symptom.
• Furthers the misguided idea ofnutritionism

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I guess we'll just disagree here then. I agree, on a societal level, that obesity is a public health issue. But on an individual level it's absolutely about personal responsibility. If you don't give a shit about being healthier why should I care for you?

To your second point, I don't necessarily advocate calorie counting just for calorie restriction. But for someone who's overweight or obese, if you have absolutely no clue how much you're currently eating, how can you make a choice to eat differently? You can eat different foods, but how do you know they're necessarily better for your current goals? You can eat chicken and broccoli for every meal...and you're going to be unhealthy as shit.

spronk_sl said:

Here's why I like all this paleo/keto/low-carb stuff: I can stick with it without any extra effort or "concentration". When I was young I burned fat like an NBA player, could eat anything and everything and never lost my six packs. Just like my dad, as I have gotten older and now into my 40s I have noticed the little paunch developing and it becoming insanely difficult to lose weight. When you are used to scarfing down everything without care, it really is hard to just "count calories". I haven't counted calories at all and I just eat low carb, home-cooked food until I am full. I don't crave sweets or junk food. Maybe the whole thing is in my mind but the 10+ times in the past few years I have tried to lose a few pounds I was never able to stick even a month of not eating bad stuff, I would literally think about food all the time while exercising a lot and eating healthy.

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This is my experience exactly. I find it much easier to eat good food and not worry about counting anymore. It's not difficult once you find your staple foods that you can eat regularly. Easier to resist the crap, and eventually you dont even want it anymore.

Elurin_sl said:

I guess we'll just disagree here then. I agree, on a societal level, that obesity is a public health issue. But on an individual level it's absolutely about personal responsibility. If you don't give a shit about being healthier why should I care for you?

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We can disagree, that's fine. As to why you should care how healthy I am... well that is a different topic for a different thread and touches much more on politics than nutrition really. That is a debate about public goods (such as public health) and community in general and not nutrition or obesity in particular.

To your second point, I don't necessarily advocate calorie counting just for calorie restriction. But for someone who's overweight or obese, if you have absolutely no clue how much you're currently eating, how can you make a choice to eat differently? You can eat different foods, but how do you know they're necessarily better for your current goals? You can eat chicken and broccoli for every meal...and you're going to be unhealthy as shit.

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That kind of hits on why I like the Paleo concept. For someone just starting out it is a good rule of thumb that can put them well on their path to healthfulness. It gives someone that doesn't know anything an, admittedly rough, guideline to help them make better choices.

Dashel_sl said:

This is my experience exactly. I find it much easier to eat good food and not worry about counting anymore. It's not difficult once you find your staple foods that you can eat regularly. Easier to resist the crap, and eventually you dont even want it anymore.

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Do you eat least concede that you eating "good food" and not counting calories is really just a byproduct of the fact that you happen to be under or at maintenance if you are losing weight, even though you may not know the exact number?

I get that if people just eat clean they probably won't overeat(I still would), but the numbers are still there underneath it all.

All these crossfit motherfuckers eating paleo and not counting calories aren't magically losing fat because they are eating avocado and grilled chicken, they are losing fat because they are really active and not eating 3500 calories a day of cupcakes.

3500 calories a day of cupcakes.

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I did that once and it was one of the best days of my life.

arkktheseaotter_sl said:

Do you eat least concede that you eating "good food" and not counting calories is really just a byproduct of the fact that you happen to be under or at maintenance if you are losing weight, even though you may not know the exact number?

I get that if people just eat clean they probably won't overeat(I still would), but the numbers are still there underneath it all.

All these crossfit motherfuckers eating paleo and not counting calories aren't magically losing fat because they are eating avocado and grilled chicken, they are losing fat because they are really active and not eating 3500 calories a day of cupcakes.

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Short answer: Yes. The end result is you eat under maintenance with "good" food.

I do think there is something to be said for insulin spikes, carbs and sugar tricking your body into thinking it's not full, you can even throw thermic effect of food in there too. Overall though it's way harder to over eat on chicken and broccoli than twinkies and so yes, end result is you're eating under maintenance.

You also need to take into account the context. Rich Froning the 3 time crossfit games winner is not eating clean, paleo or whatever. He eats what he likes basically and he burns it off easily. He cant get enough calories eating cleanly, so he eats tons of fats like peanut butter and carbs like potatoes and pasta. A lot of athletes have to do this.

For the average dude looking to drop some pounds simply making better food choices will do the trick and forget counting and all that overly complex stuff until you're in advanced weight loss territory.

Celestein_sl said:

I don't think anyone is really(or even could) argue that what you're saying isn't true.

The prime difference is that a carb heavy diet results in a positive feedback loop, where a keto-or-paleo results in a negative feedback loop when it comes to hunger per calorie consumed.

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People do argue that though, and think that insulin control of Paleo is magical and calories don't matter.

And the feedback loop stuff is silly because there's pros and cons to everything, what you are stating is subjective and it depends on a persons lifestyle.

Dashel_sl said:

Short answer: Yes. The end result is you eat under maintenance with "good" food.

I do think there is something to be said for insulin spikes, carbs and sugar tricking your body into thinking it's not full, you can even throw thermic effect of food in there too. Overall though it's way harder to over eat on chicken and broccoli than twinkies and so yes, end result is you're eating under maintenance.

You also need to take into account the context. Rich Froning the 3 time crossfit games winner is not eating clean, paleo or whatever. He eats what he likes basically and he burns it off easily. He cant get enough calories eating cleanly, so he eats tons of fats like peanut butter and carbs like potatoes and pasta. A lot of athletes have to do this.

For the average dude looking to drop some pounds simply making better food choices will do the trick and forget counting and all that overly complex stuff until you're in advanced weight loss territory.

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Rich Froning along with the rest of them likely use steroids also, but yes, at the core of everything the main factor is calories, and eating carbs doesn't make you fat and spiking insulin doesn't make you fat and so on. Overeating does. The whole insulin debate is retarded. If insulin release stopped fat loss cold then Froning and every other athlete drugs or not wouldn't be ripped. Fact is that it's a small factor, combined with a lot of other small factors that take a back seat to calorie control.

arkktheseaotter_sl said:

People do argue that though, and think that insulin control of Paleo is magical and calories don't matter.

And the feedback loop stuff is silly because there's pros and cons to everything, what you are stating is subjective and it depends on a persons lifestyle.

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Skip to 3:17 for the shorthand


For the detailed and heavily cited versionread the whole book.

He just started that video saying eat less exercise more CAN'T BE DONE...

WHAT

THE

FUCK

Don't start with this fucking dumb insulin shit.

You can find a totally different point of view in someone like Layne Norton who should appease all the internet proponents of "DO YOU EVEN LIFT BRO" because he practices what he preaches. Oh he also has a PhD.