Well, now what?

Tuco_sl said:

First, there was scripting in EQ.

Second, the reason I disagree with this sentiment is because MMOs generally don't stress players from a gameplay perspective until they reach the high end of the game. The difficulty in leveling is to figure out the best way or any way to make progress. I remember being a n00b in EQ looking for better places to level and it wasn't trivial when you had gryphons and guards and lockjaw popping out of no where to give you another chance to spend a half hour looking for your damn corpse.

Click to expand...

specter trains on the beach, and the first time you realize that a orc warrior is way tougher than an orc warrior...
oh, and sand giants beating the shit out of you while you're medding and staring at your spell book.

Just thinking more about spoilers...As I said before, I did not play EQ, but L2 would of been similar early on (EQ changed at level cap).

When I started to play, there were only basic spoiler sites but you did not use these to check where to xp. some areas were used by guilds friendly to me while other areas were used by enemy guilds. In any game with open world non-faction pvp, maps do not help because you need knowledge of your own server to know which areas are safe for you.

Gecko_sl said:

Did you play EQ in 1999? Did you have a map, or are we relying on google?

I was there day 1. I did not have a map. I knew of nobody who had a decent map, outside of scribbles.

I get the feeling you weren't around back then, and wouldn't know the name of Dorn B'Dynn or any of the other notable fun pieces of EQ nostalgia that those of us who played, without a decent map, do.

Click to expand...

Well shit, now look what you went and made me do:

April 20th, 2000? Wait, wait, wait. They only added Erudite SKs in the patch prior to Kunark's launch. Let's see if my original character is still kicking around somewhere....



Is April 6th, 1999 sufficiently old-school for you, or do you want to continue with your dick-waving?

Itzena_sl said:

Well shit, now look what you went and made me do

Click to expand...

I was there back in the day, and I remember Itzena being on the same server. Good times.

Itzena_sl said:

Well shit, now look what you went and made me do:

April 20th, 2000? Wait, wait, wait. They only added Erudite SKs in the patch prior to Kunark's launch. Let's see if my original character is still kicking around somewhere....

Is April 6th, 1999 sufficiently old-school for you, or do you want to continue with your dick-waving?

Click to expand...

You would be right that maps existed back then as did information sites.

What you are failing to realize is it wasn't normal for players to be able to live stream 10 different webpages with all the information while simultaneously boxing 5 accounts. The majority of players were not able or expected to actively research game encounters and mechanics to be able to adventure / group / exp / participate in higher tier content.

That aspect of gaming has changed today. People expect you to browse these information sites if you want to be part of their social group. There isn't anything wrong with looking at these information sites to figure out the most efficient way to min/max, I personally don't find that style of game play interesting.

That's what this thread is about, what do players who do not want this style of game play do. It's not a personal affront to your gaming experience. It's merely asking for suggestions.

My suggestions were play online rpg's that weren't made for thousands of players or learn to enjoy single player rpg's so you can still experience the challenge of trying and failing different tactics without your social group expecting you to study the perfect accepted strategy before hand.

Others suggested MMO's that have instancing, but I haven't seen a good fully instanced MMO yet. Most dungeons end up being Linear with maybe one or two branches at some point in the dungeon. It's not really dungeon crawling as much as following a path and killing monsters at set intervals.

lol qwerty trying so hard to make himself a martyr or something for the retarded.

Did you or did you not have a map when you started EQ, Itzena? How did you navigate in EQ? Showing me a pic from circa three to five years after release talking about 1999 EQ means nothing and you are still missing the underlying point that there was mystery and danger, especially that first year. Sure, things were spoiled a year or two later, but the MMO world is so far removed from how it was back then it's like comparing cell phones with that timeframe.

Those screenshots ain't exactly how the PC world was when EQ was released, as has been pointed out, and I think you are seeing it through anti rose colored glasses....

But you did play, and I was wrong there. My bad. I think you are still missing the point, however.

Obviously. He had GPS, spoilers, and maps in 1999 and I was just a lost soul wandering in the desert figuring things out.

who cares about maps on websites? maps are not gps as tuco said. there's a world of difference. if someone wants to go online and reference or print a map, go ahead. designers can combat this by making the dungeons and overworld sufficiently complex enough to where using a map is almost required. it took a long time to learn guk, and even if you had a map, it wasn't nearly as valuable as a geoloc because you still had to be aware of where you are, reference the map, and successfully navigate through. i'm all for that.

instead we get the reverse. linear as fuck hallways that are called "dungeons" where you don't even need a gps or a map. you can sleepwalk through all of them.

That's the thing gamers like Itenza don't understand. They can't wrap their mind around the concept that some players do not desire their style of game play.

Yes that makes them "Lol noobs" in the competitive sense but so what. That should just make you feel better about "winning".

Players in this thread are expressing interest in adding extra challenge to a game experience through not researching game content before hand and live streaming game strategies. They want suggestions to avoid the current popular style of gaming.

It's a difference from the type of game experience you enjoy but both styles of game play are valid. One type of player values mystery / the unknown / uncertain horizons while the other type of player enjoys winning / best in slot / fastest kill time etc.

Both styles have a spot in the market, it's just the min/maxer style has been milked to death the past few years and the current alternatives are casual browser "mmo's" that provide little if any challenge. I'm thinking the only way to avoid this gear treadmill / ladder climb social expectation is to make games / stories that aren't "massive" but rather geared toward a group of people between 6 to 50 players.

Dumar_sl said:

who cares about maps on websites? maps are not gps as tuco said. there's a world of difference. if someone wants to go online and reference or print a map, go ahead. designers can combat this by making the dungeons and overworld sufficiently complex enough to where using a map is almost required. it took a long time to learn guk, and even if you had a map, it wasn't nearly as valuable as a geoloc because you still had to be aware of where you are, reference the map, and successfully navigate through. i'm all for that.

instead we get the reverse. linear as fuck hallways that are called "dungeons" where you don't even need a gps or a map. you can sleepwalk through all of them.

Click to expand...

Map's in of themselves do not bother me. It's one aspect of a game that depending upon it's implementation can change the gaming experience.

winning at wow is like winning the special olympics.

their style is objectively wrong though in terms of the mmo space. i've said this on foh, but that style of gameplay works in a multiplayer game. there's no reason for the massively part. there's no reason for the massively in wow whatsoever. make your competitive esport shortbus game a multiplayer game, and there's no difference in gameplay.

I was taking a broader view of games instead of trying to blame all the dissatisfaction on maps which is just one aspect of games.

I didn't think this thread was a referendum on maps lol. I figured it was more about the play styles and social expectations in games. At least that's what I inferred from the OP.

Also, I did say I don't mind maps. It's more about how they are implemented that can change a game. Even if maps didn't hand hold you through everything, it wouldn't change the social expectations behind that particularly common game feature. People would still expect you to use third party programs / sites that provide similar information.