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Daidraco

Avatar of War Slayer
10,045
10,357
This is probably old fashioned of me, but I miss some of the verbal cues of the environment that you had in Eq. I don't believe any mmo since has done this. It felt very old school to me, like something you would hear from a dm in a pen n paper game. I know a lot of it was largely due to technical issues where it would have been much more effort to show something visually than it would take to just type a few descriptions. Still, anyone remember the first time you saw 'you hear the sound of thundering hooves...' in drunder? Little environmental things like that are memorable.

Another thing people often don't mention anymore is how unnatural it is for enemies to come in these 'pre-ordained' packs, which is like the custom nowadays. I first noticed and got annoyed by this in eq2, but wow and every game that followed seemed to do the same. Yes I know splitting enemies in Eq was an unintended mechanic. But the rules made sense - some enemies assisted each other, some don't. Anything that did assist was usually intelligent/humanoid, and there was no artificial limit on who came - if they were close enough to see their pals they would come help.
Ffxi and Eq were both like this. Ffxi had other interesting mechanics too, like mobs that could smell or hear but couldn't see you, and you had to be smart about different mechanics to deal with that.
Loved the pull mechanics of EQ. The designers had to think about how packs might be split and design around that. I just felt like the locked groups were just lazy design, essentially. You made me remember the text that came up when you entered certain areas. Simple things like that actually made me notice the visual queues that the developers tried to get across. They were all over EverQuest. ToV, VP, OS, etc. etc. Easily sets a theme for an area.
 

AngryDwarf

Trakanon Raider
10
1
I don't see why you can't have all the convenience tools like LFD/R, badges, etc but at the same time have meaningful content that encourages grouping and interaction. Why can't we take WoW exactly as it is now and put in a huge un-instanced dungeon tuned for a full group? Make it gigantic and have 500 spawns (or whatever) that respawn every 15 minutes with a 1% chance to spawn a named that drops badge equivalent loot. Give all the mobs in the zone a .1% chance to drop unique epic gems that are slightly better than the JC equivalent. Put some rare drop epic crating patterns in. Throw some achievements in there. Put in a staging area with a quest hub and a faction grind with rewards. Bam. People forming groups, interacting, pvp hilarity, drama, and fun times abound.
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
There's plenty of neat things you could do to even add an artificial sense of community, too though.

I know it was just for PvP, but Warhammer Online did a thing for top players in PvP of the week/month/overall where they added in these big statues with the players name on it and I believe what their current gear was. It was a pretty neat thing, mostly for E-Peen but it was cool that they took the time to do that. Even if that game sucked. Of course in a game like WoW with a billion servers, it may be a little unrealistic but who knows.

Even for PvE they could do something like that. Using WoW as an example, when you killed Onyxia you could hang her head and it would broadcast to the city a message that someone and their friends have slain Onyxia, they could take something like that but maybe when you scroll over it it shows what guild it was from, or have some sort of hero board that shows the guild emblem/name/whatever.

Of course that's just my opinion on what I would like to see devs try to add to a community outside of just forums and guilds. Shit to show off to the server like "Oh, that's the guild that slain ____"
 

muiy

Molten Core Raider
32
16
What I'd like to see for MMO's going forward is a return to making an "experience" for the player, not a game where you're more concerned with numbers and measured achievement from the moment you start playing.
That's the key for me too. I didn't care about maxxing out in Ultima Online. All my guild ever had was a nice two-story house in a prime location. Never once did I wish we had a castle instead. I didn't care about having a Heavy Crossbow of Vanquishing; the only times I felt "maxxed out" was when I tidied up my supply house and fully-stocked the chests with reload kits of reagents, runes, a heavy x-bow, bone armor, and clothing dyed to match the stuff I was wearing currently. So I could jump back into things quickly after I died.

I mean maybe if I was into duelling other players I would want that Vanquishing weapon so I had a small edge, but in group PvP, who cares if I was a 100% optimal character or a 95% optimal? It's not like we were fighting for anything other than bragging rights and fun anyway. And it's not like all my opponents were ever going to get that 100.0 magic resist either. Like, literally, people played UO for more than a year and PvPed seriously, and most of us (afaik) never had above 90.0 in the most crucial skill in the game.

Now I watch someone play Tera Online and they're looking at their opponent's gear and are like "Oh, he has a 10 next to his weapon, I'm going to kick his ass because I have a 12 next to mine."

For me a good future MMO is something involving survival, permadeath and a post-apocalyptic setting of some sort. You just try to last as long as possible and build a community with the random acquaintances in your area who also avoided death and over time they transform into your closest allies. I don't have time to play an MMO, but if I did, I would be playing Salem. Which has a host of problems, is hated by almost everyone who tries it, and is light years away from being emulated by any company hoping to make a commercially-successful MMO. So, as others have written, I'm completely over this genre and see no hope for the future. I don't even think a well-made UO clone would necessarily work, because people's expectations and approach have changed so much since then. As much as lack of imagination is undeniably and shamefully the main culprit here, nostalgia plays a role too.
 

xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
I just want a god damn new mmo to play that doesn't feel like it was pushed out a year early
 

supertouch_sl

shitlord
1,858
3
on the subject of death penalties:

they're not unique to everquest. they're present in almost every single-player game you've played. you die, start from the beginning, and then breathe a sigh of relief once you've mastered a level. without these constructs, the reward centers of the brain are desensitized. death penalties are aggravating but you ultimately appreciate them.
 

Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
1,132
3,819
It might be interesting if someone decided to try a design experiment. Design a game where one of the core design principles was to strip as many items out of the UI as possible and place them back into the game world. What would a game like this look like, sound like and handle like? What demands would it place on the player?

As an example of what I mean. Take a typical UI, you have chat boxes, combat logs, party tab, inventory windows, character sheet, a map, current target, player point pools (hp and mana), ect, ect.

Now, start removing or replacing these elements with in game, in world indicators. So instead of seeing a target's current hp level is low, you instead notice that the target is slowing down, bleeding profusely, retreating or just wavering on it's feet. It wouldn't be as precise as a health %, but it would force a player to look at the in game model of their target and notice cues from that. You could still target a player or enemy so you could maneuver around them, and they will have an indicator floating over their head or under their feet, but that's all the info you get.

Take the mini map, and remove it. Instead the player gets a map screen that rolls out in front of them in a first person view. They can still look up from the map and look around to see if anyone is coming, but the map is something that they have to concentrate on to use. Allow them to make marks and notes on their map. And give the player the ability to make marks and notes on other players maps if given permission. Allow npc's to make marks when telling the player about certain things. Have some of the Npc's make mistakes or not remember clearly. Have the map be finite. It only shows a small area of the world. Other areas will need to have their maps purchased and many areas will have no maps immediately available and will have to be created by the players and traded to each other.

Inventory screen. The inventory is no longer a personal pocket plane the player carries around with them. Instead, the inventory is determined by what they are wearing. If they are naked, their inventory consists of their equipment slots and that's it. If they are wearing a belt, they can attach pouches and containers that are limited in the types of items they can hold. If they are wearing clothes with pockets they can have a few small items tucked away in each. If they are wearing a backpack, before they can place or remove items from it, they must take it off and place it on the ground. Wearing a backpack will also affect your ability to perform certain actions like rolling or swimming.

Chat windows, this might be the most controversial item on the list. But limiting chat to only local chat when not in certain buildings or structures. You can only hear what is going on directly around you unless you are inside a specialized structure. If you are in an auction house you can hear a global trade chat. If you are in a tavern or Inn you can hear a local general chat, in a market place you can hear a local trade chat for that town. If you are in a Tower, keep, castle, and are of the proper affiliation and rank, you can hear a defense chat. The only chat's that would persist anywhere would be guild chat and whispers from friends. Even party chat would be limited to a local area, much larger than /say but still limited.

I think another interesting thing would be to put hard restrictions on a players ability to see the game. Draw the camera in closer to the player. Do not let people zoom out to 300 yards behind their head. Keep the third person in fairly tight, almost like resident Evil 4 close. This allows for a third person view and some situational awareness, but also allows for the player to be ambushed from behind. Maybe if an in game skill like "tactical awareness" or "eyes in the back of your head" was increased the player could gain the ability to zoom out more or reverse their view without turning around but do not make these the default.

Also, make dark areas that the player can not see in without aid. Essentially any cave anywhere. Require the use of light sources to navigate these areas. This allows players to take advantage of the shadows and limited field of view from behind and ambush other players.

Place limits on a players movements. Make it very dependent on what they are wearing and what their proficiency in acrobatics is. Doing a combat roll in full plate should require a huge amount of strength and agility, otherwise the player should probably wind up pinned to the ground and struggle to right themselves.

Anyways, the whole idea behind this is to offer up a brand new experience, something that almost feels like a simulation rather than a straight up arcade game. It will put greater constraints on a player, it will withhold lots of information most players are used to seeing floating right in front of them, it will greatly limit a players ability to do several things simultaneously, and I believe it will draw players into the game world more than most other experiences. They will have to be cautious about when they decide to do certain things. They will have to setup effective information and trade networks. They will be paying much closer attention to what they can see and not a bunch of bars and graphs. They will be listening for the sounds of the enemy.

It would be interesting and different to say the least. How fun it would be is a different matter.
 

BubbySoup

Golden Knight of the Realm
133
59
Take the mini map, and remove it. Instead the player gets a map screen that rolls out in front of them in a first person view. They can still look up from the map and look around to see if anyone is coming, but the map is something that they have to concentrate on to use. Allow them to make marks and notes on their map. And give the player the ability to make marks and notes on other players maps if given permission. Allow npc's to make marks when telling the player about certain things. Have some of the Npc's make mistakes or not remember clearly. Have the map be finite. It only shows a small area of the world. Other areas will need to have their maps purchased and many areas will have no maps immediately available and will have to be created by the players and traded to each other.
Ideas like this don't work well any more (if they ever did) because of spoiler sites. The moment you make the map more hassle to use than viewing on a website, is the moment you have created a redundant mechanic. Equally nobody is going to want to trade or purchase a map when you can just print one out or look at it on a website, unless you are talking about having the area physically locked until you purchase the map, in which case you are just creating keyed areas, much like when players used to sell access to Kaesora in EQ. Speaking of EQ, take P99 which has no map feature. I have most of the old EQ zones committed to memory (I was surprised just how many I remembered actually), but for zones I couldn't quite remember the layout of, I just had the P99 wiki open on my tablet next to me.
 

Pasteton

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,733
1,918
I think future gameplay evolutions are going to revolve around new ways to get people to interact. I think combat mechanics are one direction that hasn't been taken far enough with regards to multiplayer/online gaming. For example, have new spell effects that occur only by combining casts of multiple different spells of multiple other classes. Summoning powerful creatures for help in battles that takes the combined effort of many players, with different summons depending on the classes involved. Complex vehicles or machines of war that need multiple people working in tandem to be effective. Create 'combat' formation options that are dynamic depending on the classes involved and their positions relative to one another. For example, just off the top of my head, a 'guard' formation may be 3+ tank type classes approximately in triangular formation, and people who stand within the area between get a +ac or -threat bonus, the tighter the formation the bigger the bonus and so forth. An 'attack' formation may be archers/rangers forming in direct lines behind melee dps, so as to get dmg bonuses related to vulnerabilities created right at that spot on the mob by the melee etc. I am not trying to defend these specific ideas just suggesting that combat mechanics have a lot more room to evolve to make group interactions more interesting and dynamic
 
1,678
149
Ideas like this don't work well any more (if they ever did) because of spoiler sites. The moment you make the map more hassle to use than viewing on a website, is the moment you have created a redundant mechanic.
Spoiler sites don't matter. You make the game how it's supposed to be played, and if people want to cheat, that's their business. There were maps for EQ back in 1999, but I never used them and nor did most of the people I knew who played.

Games like EQ Next need to accept the idea of being niche. You can't have it both ways or you just end up with Rift or Vanguard or something which is neither hardcore nor totally WoW-ish. If a game was truly hardcore with no minimap etc. it would experience a lot of ZOMG WTF THIS GAEM HAZ NO MAP WTF? THIS IS REDIKULUS! but eventually it would settle down. The new generation who were brought up on WoW would move on and find something else, but the old players or any new hardcore types would stick with it.

Modern devs need to accept this. They can have millions of players like WoW, but they need a gigantic budget to do it. $100m is the absolute minimum, because the average WoW kiddie is not interested in anything that doesn't have more raids, more battlegrounds, more of everything, slicker, and better. But the alternative is to make a truly niche and hardcore game. It might only settle at 500,000 or something, but that should be plenty. And if they got it right... it could still be popular in 10-20 years, long after TSW/Rift/GW2 have died.
 
922
3
It's hard to find a perfect balance in a game. If you are looking for quality gaming these days you might do well to rediscover a passion for single player games. I wonder if there any modern MUD's now that I think about it. Games designed for a small group of people to go out and adventure on a story designed and balanced around small group tactics. I also question the assumption that playing with thousands of random strangers always adds value to a gaming experience.

MMO's don't provide much quality these days as they do "quantity" of content to keep people running in a hamster wheel.
 

BubbySoup

Golden Knight of the Realm
133
59
For example, have new spell effects that occur only by combining casts of multiple different spells of multiple other classes.
Didn't EQ2 have that spell wheel thingy where each player in the group advanced it on by casting certain spells until it completed and fired off?
 
1,678
149
It's hard to find a perfect balance in a game. If you are looking for quality gaming these days you might do well to rediscover a passion for single player games. I wonder if there any modern MUD's now that I think about it. Games designed for a small group of people to go out and adventure on a story designed and balanced around small group tactics. I also question the assumption that playing with thousands of random strangers always adds value to a gaming experience.
MMO's don't provide much quality these days as they do "quantity" of content to keep people running in a hamster wheel.
I think that's exactly where recent games fit in. Particularly SWTOR and TSW. They provide high quality content as good as a single player game, and the instances are ideal for a group of friends to run together, maybe pad out their group with a few strangers if they want. The problem is that it's fun but only for a month or two.

The earlier games while heavy on grind and light on quality dialogue etc, were more world-like, and more social. We need a game that can achieve both good content and longevity without being a total grind. Sandbox gaming could work because you wont need millions of quests and dungeons.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Spoiler sites don't matter. You make the game how it's supposed to be played, and if people want to cheat, that's their business. There were maps for EQ back in 1999, but I never used them and nor did most of the people I knew who played.

Games like EQ Next need to accept the idea of being niche. You can't have it both ways or you just end up with Rift or Vanguard or something which is neither hardcore nor totally WoW-ish. If a game was truly hardcore with no minimap etc. it would experience a lot of ZOMG WTF THIS GAEM HAZ NO MAP WTF? THIS IS REDIKULUS! but eventually it would settle down. The new generation who were brought up on WoW would move on and find something else, but the old players or any new hardcore types would stick with it.

Modern devs need to accept this. They can have millions of players like WoW, but they need a gigantic budget to do it. $100m is the absolute minimum, because the average WoW kiddie is not interested in anything that doesn't have more raids, more battlegrounds, more of everything, slicker, and better. But the alternative is to make a truly niche and hardcore game. It might only settle at 500,000 or something, but that should be plenty. And if they got it right... it could still be popular in 10-20 years, long after TSW/Rift/GW2 have died.
Your hardcore game will probably maintain sub 100k numbers. No other MMORPG has really maintained anything north of 500k subs for very long. A low budget will bring you crap graphics and shitty UI with tons of network code including plenty of ways to cheat and hack the game.

Essentially you have no idea what you're talking about. Especially when you say:

Spoiler sites don't matter. You make the game how it's supposed to be played, and if people want to cheat, that's their business. There were maps for EQ back in 1999, but I never used them and nor did most of the people I knew who played.
I mean that's just the height of ignorance and naivite when it comes to the gaming public. You think you're going to get 100k let alone a "niche" 500k to not cheat by promising to not have a browser up in another monitor with a hand drawn map in MS paint.
 
922
3
I think that's exactly where recent games fit in. Particularly SWTOR and TSW. They provide high quality content as good as a single player game, and the instances are ideal for a group of friends to run together, maybe pad out their group with a few strangers if they want. The problem is that it's fun but only for a month or two.

The earlier games while heavy on grind and light on quality dialogue etc, were more world-like, and more social. We need a game that can achieve both good content and longevity without being a total grind. Sandbox gaming could work because you wont need millions of quests and dungeons.
If you want more modding opportunities for custom player generated content you normally need a non subscription based game.

I like the idea of being able to replay a custom scenario of a game after the main story has been finished. Some custom scenarios even end up better than the original game. I really enjoyed games from game companies that provided tools for the community to actively mod the game. Those were companies you could tell cared about making people enjoy the game instead of debating which npc's / quests require silver tier item shop access to experience.
 
922
3
EQ had spoiler sites from day one.
Yes, but the manner in which people actually play games has changed.

Back in classic eq you had a shitty 56K internet connection that wasn't helpful to live streaming 10 different webpages for every possible whim that came to mind while you were simultaneously running around stabbing goblins.


It's true that people don't have to read the information sites but it's pretty much expected of you to be able to participate in any higher tier content because people aren't so much interested in adventuring / exploring / testing out strategies but rather in defeating challenges in the most efficient manner to farm gear. There were a small number of people like that during classic EQ, but it's definitely the norm now.

The ways in which most people play games and socialize has most certainly changed. There's nothing wrong with their style of gameplay. I just don't find it all that compelling or captivating.