World of Warcraft: Classic

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Dinadass

Molten Core Raider
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It depends on what you’re looking to do in PvP. For 1v1, soul link is best in the game and seduce+nuke destro is above average overall but has a few hard counters. I had several AVs with over 1000 killing blows because I had nef loot when most people were wearing greens and blues and a shadowbolt + immo + conflag combo would do enough damage in a ~0.2 second window to one shot most opponents.

But 1v1 is not really what vanilla pvp is about, and warlocks are very strong in organized pvp where your role is to harass healers, rotate CCs on different targets, and finish people off with nightfall procs or shadowburn. These days alliance premades are favored to win games against horde premades but a few good warlocks can really shake that up because of how hard they counter paladins (no curse removal, any heal they cast can be spell locked since they have no instants, and they can only CC either you or your felhunter, not both)
 
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LachiusTZ

LachiusTZ

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I was engineering / alchemist, and there were some nice toys. Don't remember anything except the teleporter tho. And that stupid fucking Target dummy.

The succubus diminishing returns I remember really well, if someone could break it twice the pet was essentially useless. Could get another target but usually it didn't help.

Honestly I don't remember when the fear nerfs hit, and when coil got the fear effect.

Once fear was out of the game, I basically remember soul link + void Walker sac and face tanking everything. Sometimes rogues (prep maybe?) Could be a headache, but there were never any real issues.

Again, might have been gear.

I spent an inordinate amount of time in Arathi Highlands farming fire pot mats for our first Rag attempts, like failing out of college levels of farming. And would regularly fight off small groups of alliance guys wanting the camp (2-3). So it's was a solid class.

No clue about 1.12, my playtime started to drop rapidly around AQ. And I was completely done right after BC launch
 
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StJesuz

StJesuz

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Cybsled said:
In early vanilla, there was no death coil /w horror mechanic I believe (that was added much later), and succubus seduce did have rapidly diminishing returns (I think by the 3rd time it only lasted a second or two, and target had immunity by 4th attempt). Soulstone was a 30m CD, so you only had that as a one-off in most cases. If you were afflic/demo, then you usually fared better than the other specs as well (don't forget that in vanilla, getting hit reset your cast bar. A fast attacking melee would cause your 2 second nuke to take 10 seconds or more to cast. Because afflic was full of instant-casts, you could stay mobile). As an alliance, will of the forsaken was pretty much an "I win" button, especially since it not only broke the fear/charm/sleep, it gave them immunity for the next 5 seconds as well. Fear pathing in Vanilla was also less "local". If you feared someone, they could literally run 100 feet from you. Later on they changed it so feared targets wouldn't run too far from where you cast fear. Pet pathing was idiotic as well. If I told my pet to go attack a target, it would frequently run the opposite way, then run towards the target.

Don't get me wrong, I did like the class, but they had many problems as well and for PVP especially, you literally had 1 spec that worked and everything else was crap. For PVE you had like 2 specs that sort of worked well, but afflic/demo was still king.
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Its true that I never played warlock in early vanilla. In the BC days I had a warlock stuck at level 39 for running battlegrounds. I never raided back in the day and it was much easier to gear up a low level character and have fun running BGs. Hopefully deathcoil will be in at launch on classic, but I suppose nobody can say for sure because IIRC you can't learn that skill until level 42.

I ran affliction & demonology spec on the private server and I could do OK with most things, shadowbolt lacked in power but you get it back in other areas.

I'm also curious what they will do with debuff slots on boss mobs. I recall there used to be only 8 available. In early raiding that would preclude use of corruption or other dots.
 
Chanur

Chanur

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They said it was a tech limit and not a design decision so I won't be shocked if there is no limit.
 
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Dinadass

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Chanur said:
They said it was a tech limit and not a design decision so I won't be shocked if there is no limit.
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There will absolutely be a 16 debuff limit, even though the technical issues have long since been resolved. No debuff limit would totally shift class balance and also require rebalancing boss fights and mechanics.
 
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StJesuz

StJesuz

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Dinadass said:
There will absolutely be a 16 debuff limit, even though the technical issues have long since been resolved. No debuff limit would totally shift class balance and also require rebalancing boss fights and mechanics.
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It sure seems like they are spending enough time on things to rebalance them.

I am aware they are introducing sharding (or whatever you wanna call it), there may be other changes due to operating system/hardware changes that they are not planning for.
 
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a_skeleton_05

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BoozeCube said:
In one of the dev videos linked above they touch on that a little bit. It was interesting because he brought up the design philosophy changing so much that it killed the game for many players. You start off back then with meaningful 5 man dungeon experiences and you also had 40 man raids which during Vanilla they never saw raiding as the only goal and the only thing to do in game which is why there is so much all over. Still you have 40 man raiding as a standard people have built up this guild around this number of players then boom TBC Kharazhan 10 man fuck you, now max raids are 25 well sorry 15 of you guys we have been playing with for the last few years have to fuck off and die. Then Wrath comes out now we have 10 mans and 25 mans but the loot is slightly worse on 10 man, plus we cause retarded burnout with people who feel the need to min/max doing 10N/H 25N/H so clearing that instance 4 times a week. Cata we are still 10-25 Normal and Heroic but this time the gear is the same so people settled on raid sizes they were happy with some smaller guilds could be 10 man only. Anyways now we have Flex raids, Mythic set sizes ect..., the ever shifting raid size and numbers as well as the importance of content that doesn't fall in that small window has probably been one of the leading contributors to people quiting this game.

So much of an MMORPG's enjoyment is an ever persistent world and meeting people making friends, sharing experiences with others. When the game shifts to far in one direction where it breaks up that dynamic is when people leave. I would bet at least back in the older expansions a guild breaking up led to more sub losses than anything else. Sure some might find another group to run with but that familiarity and comradery is really what sets this genre of games apart from others. and again I think that is one of the mistakes of trying to make raiding ball bustingly difficult like they do with current Mythic raids is all it does is cause more splits and divides in guilds. MMORPG's pull a lot of inspiration from old table top D&D type of enviornments and imagine playing a game like D&D and telling Steve listen here faggot you blow to much dick to raid with us fuck off, yet in retail you are forced to do this if you want to complete the highest of encounters. Meanwhile the rest of it is so easy that it all can be pugged.
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Along the same lines, the guild level system in cata really fucked a lot of people and guilds. It caused a huge amount of chaos in non hardcore guilds as suddenly the stats of the guild mattered, and merges skyrocketed and guilds died as people 2ent off in search of more active guilds. Then the guild gold perks started eating up every potential new player into mindless spam guilds that had zero community interaction. This all happened at the same time the difficulty level increased compared to wotlk, which made carrying lesser skilled players all the more difficult, and I'm confident that the 30 or so friends of mine that quit the game around this time due largely to these things were just a part of a larger group.

Blizzard is horrible at seeing the whole picture when it comes to making changes.
 
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Dinadass

Molten Core Raider
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I am all in favor of removing the debuff limit, or making other changes, but Blizz has straight up said they are not considering doing that for Classic. I've played enough vanilla/tbc/wotlk servers already to be try something a little different but that's not the direction they are going with Classic.
 
Lunis

Lunis

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The 'more dots' guy was right though. There's no way to get feared -> tail whipped into the whelps if you stand in the right area.
 
Ossoi

Ossoi

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Chysamere said:
Playing Alliance on Northdale is /completely/ different to playing Horde and if the official release is going to be the same, I'm switching my vote to Alliance.

Can actually do all the quests without 503403412 people around.
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What he meant was; "Can actually do all the quests without 1 Ossoi around."

Get's PKed once, deletes his character and re-rolls on Alliance
 
Chysamere

Chysamere

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Ossoi said:
What he meant was; "Can actually do all the quests without 1 Ossoi around."

Get's PKed once, deletes his character and re-rolls on Alliance
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You really are an insufferable faggot, aren't you.

No one deleted their character. I achieved my level goal on Horde side and went to practice Alliance in case we roll that on release.

I may become an officer in the new guild just so I can enjoy kicking you anytime you're invited.
 
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Ossoi

Ossoi

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Chysamere said:
You really are an insufferable faggot, aren't you.

No one deleted their character. I achieved my level goal on Horde side and went to practice Alliance in case we roll that on release.

I may become an officer in the new guild just so I can enjoy kicking you anytime you're invited.
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I will be playing on EU servers, there's no chance I'm gonna get dragged down by you scrubs

But congrats on beating The Barrens and spending five minutes in Ashenvale?
 
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a_skeleton_05

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Ossoi is a posterchild for the sad faggots that obsess over something so silly as pvp in a video game, taking it far too seriously. You can smell the crusted cheeteos, sweat, B.O., and autism coming off his every word.
 
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Siliconemelons

Siliconemelons

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Cybsled said:
Warlocks had it pretty rough

1) Free kills in PVP. The only defensive tool we had, fear, got nerfed in PVP because players didn't like that their free kill could make them run around helpless and actually stand a chance of fighting back. But rogues stunlocking you until dead was perfectly fine from Blizzard's PVP design philosophy. Derp.

2) Useless pets. You basically had imp out to give people more HP in raids, or you did a spec where you sacrificed your demon to boost your DPS. There were very few encounters where felhound, voidwalker, or succubus actually had a usage in a raid environment beyond being a voidlink sponge or the rare crowd control fights.

3) Useless specs. Lots of classes had to deal with this, but warlocks had it pretty bad. Demonology was pretty worthless outside a couple talents. Heavy destruction was also pretty worthless DPS wise early on, especially since bosses/mobs used to have elemental immunity, rendering all the fire based spells worthless.

4) Infernal and Doomguard was never worth the risk (since they would eventually break enslave and become immune to it and kill you) and had too long a cooldown in any event. Doomguard Russian Roulette was pretty lol, though. Too bad you could only do it once an hour.

5) Shard management. It went from 1 shard per mob that gives XP and no special bags, then they added special bags (the good ones were very expensive to make and hard to get drops), then much much later they added the multi-shards from a single drain. It was a pain in the ass because they didn't stack and you needed a fuckton for raids.

Killing yourself with hellfire was nice, though, because you didn't take durability loss. We'd always do that when a raid wipe was happening to avoid having to spend more money. Spam lifetap, hellfire, dead lol. Warlocks also did have lots of nice utility, which always made them useful to bring along. And high HP helped for the AoE fights so you could live longer.

Funny part is I originally never intended to be a warlock. When Tigole invited some of us to beta, hunters weren't in and for whatever reason, I thought hunters might be the most "monk like" (idk where I got that idea, at the time druids had feign death). So I figured I would play warlock since I could learn pet management on the class at the very least. I ended up liking a lot of their utility, so I ended up just sticking with warlock until they actually released monks in MoP.
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I was a warlock in classic on PVP thunderlord - knight lt rank, raided etc etc.

Gutting fear and charm where bullshit - rouge and then dru shamans could have this kinda crap, but oh not locks!

Locks had to still work for the kill after, rouges just kek'ed and moved on over and over-

Chanur said:
You have plenty of good points but I cannot agree with Warlocks being free kills. I never felt that way fighting one. Far to many HP and ways to mitigate damage or recover HP. They were brutal in PvP.
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Locks did have good HP, but our dps was not as burst as mages or even shadow priests / shamans - we had to burn cooldowns a lot.

Even with the PvP nerfs we adapted... but they kept nerfing locks and boosting literally everyone else it was really rough at the end
 
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LachiusTZ

LachiusTZ

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Dom said:
Blizzard is horrible at seeing the whole picture when it comes to making changes.
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Seems like most are, whether people or organizations, unable to foresee the unintended consequences
 
mkopec

mkopec

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Holy shit O-soy boy is still talking about his PvP victory yesterday where he and his buddy, both lv 60, came and beat up a lv 20? What a fucking autistic faggot.
 
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Chanur

Chanur

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Xadion said:
I was a warlock in classic on PVP thunderlord - knight lt rank, raided etc etc.

Gutting fear and charm where bullshit - rouge and then dru shamans could have this kinda crap, but oh not locks!

Locks had to still work for the kill after, rouges just kek'ed and moved on over and over-



Locks did have good HP, but our dps was not as burst as mages or even shadow priests / shamans - we had to burn cooldowns a lot.

Even with the PvP nerfs we adapted... but they kept nerfing locks and boosting literally everyone else it was really rough at the end
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They nerfed rogue cc considerably as well.

True lock burst might not have been great in vanilla(it definitely was at other points in the game) but you had tons of migitation , healing, and mobility. You have PVE complaints and I think they are all legit but the PVP ones are garbage.
 
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