World of Warcraft: Current Year

Dandai

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Yeah, I would attribute mythic raiding burnout to AP grind and titanforging (not mythic raid encounter design). I think titanforging is a good system, but it should cap at your highest ilevel [non-legendary] item. You can't help but question your sanity chasing a 905 base ilevel item when you could get that exact same item at 925... in raid finder.
 

Noodleface

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Personally I like a challenge. I don't think requiring 54 traits, ideal legendary drops and optimal class balancing defines a challenge though. That's probably my biggest gripe. They made a system that promotes too much of a grind to be considered worthy.

I don't think TF/WF are the real problem
 

Dandai

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Grinding is a symptom; Titanforging is the root cause of the burnout problem. Sure, some players would still grind themselves into oblivion for AP because they feel compelled to be optimal. But for the rest of us, we'd do enough M+ to get a nice weekly chest and call it a day.

However, Titanforging means that an upgrade could be just around the corner - if we're willing to grind for it.

Edit: Asmongold's take on it is that mythic isn't nearly rewarding enough, and very few WoW players participate in challenging content that have no extrinsic rewards (see WoD/MoP challenge modes and Proving Grounds). Since you can reasonably expect to see mythic-ilevel gear drop from normal/heroic (and although much less likely, it's possible in LFR too), mythic raiding in Legion is less rewarding than it's ever been. The ONLY exclusive reward for mythic raiding is a feat of strength and shitty red infernal mount (why did they make mythic red and heroic green when green looks soooo much better?).
 
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Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Grinding is a symptom; Titanforging is the root cause of the burnout problem. Sure, some players would still grind themselves into oblivion for AP because they feel compelled to be optimal. But for the rest of us, we'd do enough M+ to get a nice weekly chest and call it a day.

However, Titanforging means that an upgrade could be just around the corner - if we're willing to grind for it.

Edit: Asmongold's take on it is that mythic isn't nearly rewarding enough, and very few WoW players participate in challenging content that have no extrinsic rewards (see WoD/MoP challenge modes and Proving Grounds). Since you can reasonably expect to see mythic-ilevel gear drop from normal/heroic (and although much less likely, it's possible in LFR too), mythic raiding in Legion is less rewarding than it's ever been. The ONLY exclusive reward for mythic raiding is a feat of strength and shitty red infernal mount (why did they make mythic red and heroic green when green looks soooo much better?).

Yea but it's also another element of why Mythic feels shitty too, since you can have capped shit to first clear mythic, mythic is balanced for its own gear which means you never truly 'overpower' earlier bosses like you could before. Well that plus very rate-limiting encounter design in general.
 

Noodleface

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I agree, aside from the feat of strength and personal challenges they eliminated the real carrot on the stick of mythic raiding. It shows with all the top guilds retiring.
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
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To be honest, Nighthold is one of my favorite raid zones ever for just encounter design, the encounters are very fun overall and do not overly punish melee like usual. It's just also probably the worst mythic zone ever.
 

Dandai

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Undoubtedly the nerfs helped as well, but we got some good recruits these past couple of weeks and went from 5/10 to 7/10 in a week. Gonna have all day tomorrow to work on the nerfed Star Augur.
 

Fyff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I feel like one of the issues with Mythic is the 20 man cap. One of the reasons you see tons of middling heroic and normal guilds out there is because they can take anywhere between 10 and 30 people. This makes things a lot looser. You can build a roster and if Basement Bobby doesn't show up you can still do stuff. Mythic kind of sucks because no one wants to sit on the bench in a random casual guild but keep all their grind up to date. Looking for people on server who haven't killed any bosses that week in Mythic who are competent enough to fill a spot or two for missing people sucks as well. Mythic raiding is just not that accessible.
 

Noodleface

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I don't know if I'd agree the problem is inherently the 20-man roster, although having a stable of people who have to sit out is kind of a byproduct of that design. Back when we did old 40-man raids we never had to bench people. If 40 people were on, your main tanks and raid leads were on, you were good to go. Some bosses were hard, but we never had to swap people out. It's all really a problem with stuff like optimal legendaries (if you got a prydaz, sephuz, and other non-throughput legendaries you're automatically below other people), class imbalance on certain encounters (why do I want a warrior tank on star augur when my monk or druid can one tank it?), the TF/WF system (tying back to legendaries), and generally much harder encounter designs in this raid tier.

I think Mythic should be hard, but there's no reason it should be so hard that only 40ish guilds have killed Mythic Guldan 1 or 2 months later.

I read on reddit about a guild that was struggling to kill Krosus. It took them 200 pulls before they got him down. Any sane person after 50 or so wipes would probably just want to stop - why put yourself through that? That's where guild turnover starts happening real quick and you end up recruiting more people who have to adjust to the guild's dynamic, social aspects, and learn their strategies. Now you can say if they wiped 200 times they're a shit guild, but even Method wiped more than that to Guldan.

I'm a big fan of a guild sticking together. Some of the dudes in FOH right now have raided since the beginning of Highmaul - and even more played EQ together. We shouldn't have to have a revolving door because people are burning out hard on 200 wipes to a boss.
 

Fyff

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I'm not sure specific legendaries are really part of the equation. If you are raiding for world firsts, sure. Do the right legendaries help? Absolutely. Can you defeat every encounter with out having the exact optimal load out? Absolutely.

The 20 man roster on a casual guild means you need 30 people. It means all 30 of those people need to be farming AP. It means all 30 of those people also need to be running M+ until their eyes bleed. And then not all 30 of those people are going to make it on raid night. If you are on the bench of a hardcore guild this is easier. Some day it will be your time. Spots open up as people move on. As a casual it sucks.

This problem is further impacted by the number of casual guilds out there. Everyone and their brother has a casual guild. Just go sit in Dalaran without a tag. You will get 30 guild invites and they all "raid". This spreads the pool really thin. You guys are pretty lucky. You have a solid core and everyone is on the same page. That's really rare.
 

Noodleface

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You guys are pretty lucky. You have a solid core and everyone is on the same page. That's really rare.

This is part of the reason that I'm pushing us towards mythic at a very light force. It helps we are a forum guild first and accept anyone. At the same time you want to progress, yet anything beyond 3/10 seems to be prohibitively difficult.
 

Faltigoth

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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I just can't imagine the 'sitting on the bench' aspect of Mythic raiding - I assume guilds have a process of rotating people around to ensure everyone gets a shot.

Because if you are geared enough to be a backup chances are you geared enough to be a starter in one of the many guilds that always seem to need 1-2 people to round out their mythic roster, and with server transfers a relatively cheap and easy thing to do, why wouldn't you go somewhere where you were a part of doing the content rather than being a bystander?

That has to be an immense pain in the ass to manage, keeping those bench folks as active and involved as everyone else.
 

Noodleface

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I don't even think people care about rotating to ensure people get a shot. It's more of a "your class is the best for this encounter, you're in"

Not like Little League where Timmy Grasseater gets his turn to bat.
 

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
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Competitive guilds don't bench in the traditional sense. You raid your balls off in funneling runs and if a core player burns out, then you get a spot in the competitive run. The 6 hour Mythic guild is going to have a rough go of it these days, unless of course you take our guild approach and actually do the treadmill. Most people just don't want to take the time for that when guild hopping is so easy to do.
 

Koushirou

Log Wizard
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I just can't imagine the 'sitting on the bench' aspect of Mythic raiding - I assume guilds have a process of rotating people around to ensure everyone gets a shot.

Because if you are geared enough to be a backup chances are you geared enough to be a starter in one of the many guilds that always seem to need 1-2 people to round out their mythic roster, and with server transfers a relatively cheap and easy thing to do, why wouldn't you go somewhere where you were a part of doing the content rather than being a bystander?

That has to be an immense pain in the ass to manage, keeping those bench folks as active and involved as everyone else.

Being enhancement in a raid with too many melee, I'm pretty much the first melee to get sat every time. As a result, I've been benched to the point that in most weeks I raid maybe 2-4 hours out of our 12 hour week. Sometimes I get more if someone else misses for the night but that's about it. Even farm, I don't usually come in because there's only a couple items that aren't shit for my spec in the instance and other people need loot.

It sucks, straight up. Rotating people around is the last thing you want to do during progression especially. You go through 50-100 attempts and people start getting all those dumb mistakes out of the way, then you introduce someone new to the fight, you get to go through those growing pains all over again and with the way this shit is designed, where 1-2 deaths usually means you're done for that attempt or some mistakes are just a guaranteed wipe almost, just adding one different person just shits on your progress. It's shitty bringing new people to farm for the same reason. No one wants to start wiping again to shit they've beaten and waste time for some people to learn that when there's still more bosses that we need that time to progress on.

I got behind from the very beginning this expac, being the second to last person to get my first legendary in my raid group and the one I got was pretty crappy. Add on being a shitty spec and as always having too many melee and I started sitting early, meaning I get behind on gear, experience, etc. and it's basically just rolled like that through the expac so far (never got a Helya kill, but we only managed to kill it once so not alone there. I still have no Spellblade or Tich kill after 3 kills of them now).

People tell me all the time I should just go find a new guild or something, but I don't want to do that. I love the people in my guild. They're awesome. And it's not our leadership's fault that I got the shaft on legendary luck early (and still continue to get it) or that my spec is fucking garbage. We're a competitive guild and they have to do what they can to make sure we stay that way (also not easy with the retarded amounts of turnover this expac has created). Do I want to be in for stuff more often? Absolutely, but I'm a realist and the reality is I'm just not needed as anything but a backup right now and there's really nothing I can do about it and it's sure as fuck not worth it to drop all the people I've come to enjoy being around just to drop backwards in progression to try and fit myself into a guild that's having such shit roster issues that they'd be desperate enough to take an enh shaman because at that point, they're probably already dead.
 
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Fyff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I just can't imagine the 'sitting on the bench' aspect of Mythic raiding - I assume guilds have a process of rotating people around to ensure everyone gets a shot.

Because if you are geared enough to be a backup chances are you geared enough to be a starter in one of the many guilds that always seem to need 1-2 people to round out their mythic roster, and with server transfers a relatively cheap and easy thing to do, why wouldn't you go somewhere where you were a part of doing the content rather than being a bystander?

That has to be an immense pain in the ass to manage, keeping those bench folks as active and involved as everyone else.
A lot of the more competitive guilds do split runs after getting a raid down a couple times and that's where your bench players come in.