World of Warcraft: Current Year

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Khane

Khane

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Fuck the .01%'ers is what I have been saying the entire time. The mention of the race becoming entertaining would be a byproduct, I don't want them to design the game specifically for that. Are you even reading my posts?

No game, at any level, should ever be designed for someone who plays the game as their job. The highest tier of difficulty in any game should require a certain time investment to be sure but that investment needs to be far, far less than it currently is. If you haven't Mythic raided you cannot possibly understand what I am saying as you probably think just logging in for raid every week is good enough to eventually get you there. If everyone in a guild did just that, only logged in to raid, they wouldn't be able to complete a current Mythic tier. They would have to wait until the next came out and bumped their ilvl by 30+ points. People in this thread were just talking about putting 500+ pulls into a single boss. That's beyond absurd.

The first 3 Mythic bosses are usually fairly accessible for almost anyone, that's good. That's reasonable. But for some reason the difficulty ramps way the fuck up from there to the point where even good players can't overcome the gear and time investment gap. This is a byproduct of the Artifact/Legendary/AP/Azerite systems and the RNG of gearing up.
 
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A

a_skeleton_05

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Khane said:
Fuck the .01%'ers is what I have been saying the entire time. The mention of the race becoming entertaining would be a byproduct, I don't want them to design the game specifically for that. Are you even reading my posts?
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You have me confused. You want to be entertained by watching those .01%'ers, but not them playing at the difficulty that they are capable of achieving. You want to watch the Yankees play farm-league? What's the point?
 
Khane

Khane

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I'm not sure how else to say I don't give an actual shit about the race... or watching it.

And your analogy sucks. Actually racing would be more interesting than the endurance test it currently is (which very few people can even participate in).
 
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a_skeleton_05

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Khane said:
I'm not sure how else to say I don't give an actual shit about the race... or watching it.

And your analogy sucks. Actually racing would be more interesting than the endurance test it currently is.
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I see now. I misread your Nascar bit. That was me being a dipshit.

I disagree about the dash vs marathon bit though. It's an MMO, not an FPS/RTS. A marathon fits it better.
 
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a_skeleton_05

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Noodleface said:
To be honest I was confused on both of your stances the entire time
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I had misunderstood Khane for one of those Mythic raiders that bitches about Mythic being too difficult, and wanting it to be nerfed down to their level, but also wanting the world first race to be important. It was me being a dipshit as I previously mentioned.
 
Arbitrary

Arbitrary

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So is Blizzard balancing week one around the assumption that the top shelf is going to scour every auction house for 425s, super mega split every raid at every difficulty on six characters to pool currency to get as many people as possible multiple max item level Azerite armors while also just having a huge stable of geared characters that can all be piloted at the proper skill level and then also go so far as to switch factions and switch back just to do a weekly quest an extra time on top of all other bits of less obvious optimization that were employed?

Putting in the amount of work that people put in to then have the encounters balanced around even effort than that while you spend a couple hundred hours on just the last boss sounds horrible.
 
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Merrith

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Khane said:
This is absurd. These people are playing 16 hours a day and this is their job. This is all they do. If they can't kill shit in one reset what the fuck does that mean for the normal player base? Why do people think this is good for the game? It's terrible and it needs to stop.

A lot of people in their raid are already 410 ilvl. Which is the ilvl people will finally be weeks or months from now in typical Mythic raiding guilds.

Exorsus killed Xavius within 24 hours. EN was also the last raid tier that didn't destroy guilds and fracture the player base. it was a great raid and was tuned appropriately for your typical Mythic raider. Nighthold got a bit ridiculous being tuned around max Artifact traits. It was a brick wall for most guilds but it was a well designed raid and the fights were fun. Then ToS came out and it was a terribly designed raid, with lousy fights that messed with your camera angle like crazy and was completely idiotic when it came to amount of pulls necessary to kill both of the final two bosses. Antorus was similarly difficult with better fights and a better raid instance but still required way too much time investment. Uldir was ToS 2.0 with an easier last boss.

This is a game. It shouldn't take well-geared, capable players 3-4 months to clear a raid, which is what it typically takes a guild full of good, but not great, players who don't invest inordinate amounts of time doing the stupid chores they've set up in modern WoW.
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If we bitch and moan and cry about lack of content/good shit in the game (not anyone in this thread specifically, just in general)...but then are expecting MYTHIC to be clearable week 1, I don't even know what to say. What does it mean for the normal player base? It means they'll be in Normal. Some in Heroic. Nobody said 3-4 months, don't exaggerate...but 1 week? They should not be able to gear themselves like that for week 1 to begin with, but that's a different issue. Expecting it all to just fall over, even to the very best is just crazy imo.

Maybe I'm a bit old school, b/c I miss when there was only 1 difficulty mode, and some bosses were just roadblocks where you had to get past them. If some guilds couldn't, keep trying or TFB. If we're going to do the LFG/Normal/Heroic/Mythic route...yeah, I think it's okay if even the top guilds are only 4/8 or 6/8 in Mythic week 1.
 
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Merrith

Merrith

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Damnit Fyff liked my post...now I need to reconsider everything I said. Fuck.
 
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Noodleface

Noodleface

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Merrith said:
If we bitch and moan and cry about lack of content/good shit in the game (not anyone in this thread specifically, just in general)...but then are expecting MYTHIC to be clearable week 1, I don't even know what to say. What does it mean for the normal player base? It means they'll be in Normal. Some in Heroic. Nobody said 3-4 months, don't exaggerate...but 1 week? They should not be able to gear themselves like that for week 1 to begin with, but that's a different issue. Expecting it all to just fall over, even to the very best is just crazy imo.

Maybe I'm a bit old school, b/c I miss when there was only 1 difficulty mode, and some bosses were just roadblocks where you had to get past them. If some guilds couldn't, keep trying or TFB. If we're going to do the LFG/Normal/Heroic/Mythic route...yeah, I think it's okay if even the top guilds are only 4/8 or 6/8 in Mythic week 1.
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Are you watching them? If they went 16 hours a day for a full week and came out 4/8 no one would do it

These guys are playing at the NFL level and we're all on a public highschool team

Question - are you raiding mythic?
 
Ambiturner

Ambiturner

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Didn't they create mythic just for the hardcore crowd?

First they just had raids, then added heroic for the hardcore players, then people wanted that to be the true endgame for everyone so they said ok and then created mythic, and now we're at the point that everyone should be able to clear mythic? So should they make that doable and then create another tier for the super duper hardcore?

I admit i've only played very casually and could be way off base here
 
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Merrith

Merrith

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Noodleface said:
Are you watching them? If they went 16 hours a day for a full week and came out 4/8 no one would do it

These guys are playing at the NFL level and we're all on a public highschool team

Question - are you raiding mythic?
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I did some in Uldir, we got up to Zul before a lot of us quit to see if this patch would be worth a shit. I'll grant 16 hours a day for a full week is pretty nuts, especially if you're comparing that to normal hardcore guilds that probably raid 4-5 nights a week 3-4 hours a night? Maybe more for progression. Perhaps I'm not understanding how much they're gaming the system to gear themselves up by week 1...although imo they shouldn't be able to gear that much in a single week, playing that much just knocks out the learning time down to a single week for the most part b/c they're putting in that much more effort into volume of pulls.

I just think at best 5% of all guilds should expect to complete Mythic within the same patch cycle. That's just my opinion. Personally would be okay with less, but I'm sure most people would want that number to be at 10% or even much higher. Most good to very good guilds should expect to get Heroic cleared and through 50% to 75% of Mythic by the end of patch cycles. Everyone else is pretty much everyone else. That would be my ideal. My guild would fall into that get Heroic clear and partially through Mythic...but they should never expect to clear Mythic. Mostly some old school/newer school players. 10 years ago we were up there super hardcore, but most of us leftovers from then aren't into that/don't have time to do that anymore.
 
Khane

Khane

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Ambiturner said:
Didn't they create mythic just for the hardcore crowd?

First they just had raids, then added heroic for the hardcore players, then people wanted that to be the true endgame for everyone so they said ok and then created mythic, and now we're at the point that everyone should be able to clear mythic? So should they make that doable and then create another tier for the super duper hardcore?

I admit i've only played very casually and could be way off base here
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It's meant for people who want a challenge, but it's currently made for people who have no job. The people who Mythic raids were made for, are stuck in progression mode for 3-4 months typically. Wiping hundreds of times (re: people talking about wiping over 500 times in their own guilds on Argus) making no real, noticeable progress until heavy nerfs come in. It should take a good Mythic guild 1-1.5 months to clear the raid and a decent Mythic guild 2.5 months tops. It should not take 4. 16 weeks of raiding to finally clear a raid is unreasonable, and the amount of guild attrition is creates is staggering.
 
Khane

Khane

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Merrith said:
I just think at best 5% of all guilds should expect to complete Mythic within the same patch cycle. That's just my opinion. Personally would be okay with less, but I'm sure most people would want that number to be at 10% or even much higher. Most good to very good guilds should expect to get Heroic cleared and through 50% to 75% of Mythic by the end of patch cycles. Everyone else is pretty much everyone else. That would be my ideal. My guild would fall into that get Heroic clear and partially through Mythic...but they should never expect to clear Mythic. Mostly some old school/newer school players. 10 years ago we were up there super hardcore, but most of us leftovers from then aren't into that/don't have time to do that anymore.
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5% of ALL guilds or 5% of Mythic raiding guilds?
 
Merrith

Merrith

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Khane said:
5% of ALL guilds or 5% of Mythic raiding guilds?
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All guilds? What are we defining as Mythic raiding guilds? Anyone who sets foot into Mythic, kills a boss in Mythic? If the latter, than 5% of that maybe. I'm guessing almost any guilds that get through most of Heroic are able to kill the first boss or two on Mythic. It should be a small number. If you're clearing Normal you get to see the story, if you're clearing Heroic you're getting your ahead of the curve achievement...that should be good enough for the vast majority of guilds for what they should expect to be able to clear on that patch cycle...imo.
 
Khane

Khane

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Merrith said:
If we bitch and moan and cry about lack of content/good shit in the game (not anyone in this thread specifically, just in general)...but then are expecting MYTHIC to be clearable week 1, I don't even know what to say. What does it mean for the normal player base? It means they'll be in Normal. Some in Heroic. Nobody said 3-4 months, don't exaggerate...but 1 week? They should not be able to gear themselves like that for week 1 to begin with, but that's a different issue. Expecting it all to just fall over, even to the very best is just crazy imo.
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What are you talking about? I don't expect shit to just fall over. I expect that people who spend 16 hours every day doing split runs to feed gear to specific classes before a raid even releases, and then spend another 16 hours a day raiding when it does release, to clear a raid within a week. Yes. You're out of your goddamn mind if you think it's reasonable to expect a group of people who are raiding 80+ hours a week to have to progress for 3 full weeks of that. After spending an equal amount of time preparing for it. They are already at ilvls close to what your average guild will be at a month from now.

It's always the same thing, complaining about the current state of raiding and the amount of time and resources you have to pool to succeed being unreasonable equates to, in some people's minds, me saying shit should just be handed to people.

Do you even understand what Limit and Method have been doing for the last month? What they did last week, and what they are currently doing this week? Limit paid to faction change their entire guild to Alliance for the warmode quest that gave 400 ilvl loot and then paid to faction change back. They had to do sale runs to get the gold to do that. People were estimating Method did over 80 split runs, carrying randoms through even Uldir to funnel azerite for Residuum.
 
A

a_skeleton_05

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At which point does it become an issue of the guild simply not being good enough rather than the content being tuned too high? What's wrong with a tier being undoable for even Mythic guilds? If you can't complete it: Move down a tier of difficulty. Any argument of it needing to be completeable by a specific group of people could also be made for any other group of people. For every group of people you make it a bit easier for, you just bring in a new group that is suddenly capable of it but with the excessive effort that the previous group had to put up with.

How the hell does a dev team design around this? You're fucked if you do and you're fucked if you don't.
 
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Merrith

Merrith

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Khane said:
What are you talking about? I don't expect shit to just fall over. I expect that people who spend 16 fucking hours every day doing split runs to feed gear to specific classes before a raid even releases, and then spend another 16 fucking hours a day raiding when it does release, to clear a raid within a week. Yes. You're out of your goddamn mind if you think it's reasonable to expect a group of people who are raiding 80+ hours a week to have to progress for 3 full weeks of that. After spending an equal amount of time preparing for it. They are already at ilvls close to what your average guild will be at a month from now.
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I'm expecting that lockouts should prevent people from being able to gear that quickly. Week 2 or early week 3 if you're playing that much, sure, maybe. First week walking in, no (although if the ability to do split runs/etc to gear up that fast IS the deciding factor, than that should be looked at imo).
 
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