I may not be a Mythic raider, but I likes me some Nascar and I'm super opinionated about how the cars go 'round the track. Ain't spectating sports grand?
World of Warcraft: Current Year
- Thread starter hodj
- Start date
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Merrith
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Lets be honest though, even a semi casual Nascar fan knows Joe Schmoe who runs down at the local speedway shouldn't expect to finish the Daytona 500 anywhere close to being on the lead lap.
Maybe we have some guys that are more like a driver on the Xfinity Series, though. Then it's a little more debatable.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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I get it, you're one of those cunty contrarians who just wants to play devil's advocate. Nobody should ever complain about what they see as a problem right? Fuck off.
Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
- 16,078
- 19,628
Merrith
Golden Baronet of the Realm
- 18,590
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Ambiturner
Ssraeszha Raider
- 16,078
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Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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The convo is now moving too fast for me but just a point of clarity. Those 500 wipes were over 4 weeks where no nerds happened. It was just a lot of time to learn the Argus fight and as we got closer and pulls were becoming 10+ minutes just to wipe to the boss it went from a lot of pulls per night to not so many.
I dont have a horse in this race since I stopped playing, but I never felt 4 months was unreasonable. We never hit a point where we got stuck
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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That just sounds masochistic. I quit in ToS because I was staring that type of raid "progression" in the face and said no thanks and didn't raid again until Uldir and subsequently quit again. Didn't you also stop raiding because it just wasn't fun anymore? 500 wipes to learn a boss? No thanks.
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jayrebb
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
- 14,786
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Its the way they design itemization around them that is the biggest problem, not necessarily the difficulty of the raids/mythics.
All item progression decision-making revolves around bottle poppin and content gobblers. That's partly how we got here with BFA. If I find the article on bottle poppin and its sweeping effects on WoW I'll be posting it. It's about 250,000 words with several years of history cited.
It sheds some more light on the decision-making that goes into the current itemization scheme and its lack of reward. That which is not likely to change next expac, or the expac after. The E-Sports era is bigger than 1 expac. Its progressively built up to this point.
The relevant conversation at this point is about lack of meaningful progression and reward for everyone else. Welfare purples ala % tooltip tuning and stat squish aren't boosting the power of these characters much. The welfare itemization is largely worthless.
Elemental Shamans even deep into the expac had to have their core kit altered because of a lack of 390 Ilevel equipment being able to significantly boost their power. And its because there is a base problem with itemization in BFA.
Character power for effort expended has never been this low.
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Merrith
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Shit I remember 4 Horsemen and Kael pulls/wipes. 4H had a 25 minute enrage timer, and you were pretty much coming up against it the first couple kills. Kael was also a 25 minute fight, and was made more irritating by the trash back then, where if you were clearing it, you might as well do pulls until they respawned or it was a pretty big waste of your time.
I'm not saying any of that was fun at all, but yeah expecting it to take a few months isn't crazy. Hell back then you had some raid tiers that people weren't clearing prior to the next one coming out b/c of final bosses being bugged/unkillable. Guilds just progressed however they progressed throughout the expansion, it wasn't this setup where current patch was all that was relevant because they hand you catch up stuff to be on the current content if you didn't clear the previous.
xzi
Mouthbreather
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Alright I only read like 2 posts in the last 3 pages but all I have to say is I wish there would only be one raid difficulty again and it still took 70 days to kill the last boss regardless of how good it is for the game. Killing Jaina should not even be ever obtainable to the average player, but I know that's just not gonna do considering how raiding is pretty much the only thing keeping wow on life support at this point.
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Vimeseh
Trakanon Raider
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I mean they did just this back in the day. You had the Ulduar hard mode bosses and then some raids had an optional boss that required keying or doing the previous hard modes. Doing a hard mode didn't net you higher ilevel. It just gave you a title, an achieve, etc. Basically bragging rights. I remember how much of a pain it was getting to and then doing algalon but it sure felt good that we were the first group to do it on our server and one of only I think four or five who did it while it was current.
So regular raiders or under skilled players did regular ulduar to the extent they could. While better players or no lifers were doing fire starter and algalon for a little bit of flex over the plebs.
Now you have two tiers of difficulty that are basically defunct for even semi serious raiders in normal and heroic because of the abundance of ilevel the game shits out and then you have mythic. Basically the first half of mythic is like normal ulduar was for most raids. Then they force you in to hard modes if you want to kill the rest of the bosses.
No clue why they just dont go back to the normal/hardmode model or at most normal/heroic that share a lockout so you spend your time where it is skill appropriate. LFR can stay because it's there for the tourists.
Edit: As to the time investment portion of the convo. I never spent more then four nights a week at three hours a night raiding. Hell, three nights a week was more common, even at the height of my "hardcore" days in BC and Wrath. But my guild was still able to clear every raid while it was current. Even if Sunwell almost broke the guild. I just dont see that kind of schedule being doable anymore unless your skill level is super high to clear current mythic. With bosses like KJ, Mistress, and G'huun.
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Korillo
Molten Core Raider
- 527
- 360
You guys argued the point for pages but they tune the raid towards both groups of players. They make the first few bosses relatively easy so the normal, average guild can progress at their own pace, and they tune the later bosses a little higher than they really should be. Then they make the last boss either unkillable or close to it.
They then proceed to slowly nerf the raid until we get to the last month of a tier, where they make it a complete joke and anyone with the smallest amount of effort can get their cutting edge achievement.
Not clearing a tier in 1 week is fine.
They then proceed to slowly nerf the raid until we get to the last month of a tier, where they make it a complete joke and anyone with the smallest amount of effort can get their cutting edge achievement.
Not clearing a tier in 1 week is fine.
Vimeseh
Trakanon Raider
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Besides this being a recent development for the most part, nobody is really arguing who they tune it for. The argument is more for whom they should be tuning it for. I'm with Khane on this one. For the .5 percenters, let them blow through the raid in one or two days. That way the rest of us competent raiders can clear it without massive nerfs over the next two to four months depending on available time commitment. You know how raiding used to be when the game was actually good.
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Merrith
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Normal and Heroic should just be abolished then, and for that ilevel progression there should be other content that fills that role. If nothing but clearing Mythic matters, I mean.
Vimeseh
Trakanon Raider
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In my post before that one I flat out stated that with the way things are currently normal and heroic are useless. Nobody needs four difficulties for a raid and you dont need to replace two of them with something else for the ilevel. Either you can raid or you can't. If you can't and still want to see what little story there is then go to lfr. If you can then raid in the one base difficulty and blizz can toss in an optional boss or three to four activated hard modes for the more ambitious players per raid. That is my ideal setup.
At worst I would want a normal/heroic setup like ICC with shared lockouts.
Oh and set the raids at ten man size so my grumpy old ass doesn't have to deal with 10 extra people I dont care about.
Merrith
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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I'm mostly okay with this. Still probably think less people who can kill a boss or two in the base difficulty should expect to clear the entire thing within that patch.
Vimeseh
Trakanon Raider
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Sure. I'm fine with raiding being more exclusionary at the entrance level because well as an EQ and since release wow player that's how it was up until roughly cata/mop. Where I agree with Khane is that bosses shouldn't be in the 500 pull range. I mean I cant nail down the exact amount of times my guild pulled any boss in heroic ICC for example. But I'm pretty damn sure the kill pull was never above 100. I think the barrier of entry is too low at the beginning of a raid and much much to high at the end as things currently stand. This is assuming current mythic as a base of course.