World of Warcraft: Current Year

Penance said:

Am me is you?

Seriously though there's nothing new. Nothing feels challenging without suffering through tired ass m+. There's no sense of mmo in the rpg. No new systems. Game should've been reinvented 5 years ago with WoW2 but only fags and commies work there and they can't create shit.

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I think the problem is they have abused the current formula to death, and the old chaotic temporary systems were the only thing adding anything new into it. So when you go and stop making those, you get one expansion which feels new (DF). This is the second one which is pure recipe and no spice.

To be clear I don't want temporary power, but I just want the core game to not be so formulaic. Farming gear like it's an ARPG gets old, especially when you don't even get ARPG combat and the time requirements for everything are so much more severe.

Seasons are a pox upon the world. When they were patches, with actual content, that mattered. Now they just demean everything about an RPG.

Chris said:

Good job, that's +500 above me.

How would you rate the dungeons?

GB feels like a difficult gear check but I got pretty good at it, last boss is hectic but I never seemed to fail it. All the bosses have positioning mechanics which felt fun.
SV felt similar difficulty but for whatever reason it just seemed eay easier to fail, I think it's harder to carry as a tank there as the mechanics required DPS to think more.

DAWN in theory is probably the easiest but something always seemed to go wrong there with new awful things happening the higher to key got.
NW surprised me, I actually did it on Mythic in Shadowlands and the hook thing was a nightmare. On higher keys everyone knows the mechanics so felt like the easiest and most consistent one overall.

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For me with 43 yr old reflexes and playing as a warrior (easiest to hardest)

1. Dawnbreaker - super lax timer, people generally have the route down, 1st and 3rd bosses are easy, the 2nd boss has a nasty overlap that is a healer check
2. Mists - As easy as it was in shadowlands, last boss can be a mess if people spread poison all over but at 10 people stack so it doesnt go all over
3. NW - With people who know the mechs its an easy key, bring a DK for 2nd boss to make is easier
4. SV - Tight timer and last boss lives forever. Tank check on trash, as long as you have awareness there shouldnt be a lot of random death
5. Ara Kara - Lax timer, but with a tank check on boss one and a healer check on boss 3 you are reliant on people who have done them with a lot of hp since the fights go on a long time
6. GB - hardest trash by far and there is a lot of it, bosses are not bad and warrior can reflect tentacles on last boss to clear the way
7. Siege - Last boss is a stress test for healers and the trash between 2 and 3 is made by someone who hasnt played the game
8. CoT - Dungeon goes from a joke under 10 to one of the hardest. Trash is hard, bosses are hard, and the 3rd boss is a nightmare

Not a bad season affix wise though the Devour affix (heal or dispel) sucks for warrior cause you are very limited on how to remove it, dungeon pool is okay I really don't like the Azj-Kahet ones at all and I would like a lil more variety on routes.

Juvarisx said:

For me with 43 yr old reflexes and playing as a warrior (easiest to hardest)

1. Dawnbreaker - super lax timer, people generally have the route down, 1st and 3rd bosses are easy, the 2nd boss has a nasty overlap that is a healer check
2. Mists - As easy as it was in shadowlands, last boss can be a mess if people spread poison all over but at 10 people stack so it doesnt go all over
3. NW - With people who know the mechs its an easy key, bring a DK for 2nd boss to make is easier
4. SV - Tight timer and last boss lives forever. Tank check on trash, as long as you have awareness there shouldnt be a lot of random death
5. Ara Kara - Lax timer, but with a tank check on boss one and a healer check on boss 3 you are reliant on people who have done them with a lot of hp since the fights go on a long time
6. GB - hardest trash by far and there is a lot of it, bosses are not bad and warrior can reflect tentacles on last boss to clear the way
7. Siege - Last boss is a stress test for healers and the trash between 2 and 3 is made by someone who hasnt played the game
8. CoT - Dungeon goes from a joke under 10 to one of the hardest. Trash is hard, bosses are hard, and the 3rd boss is a nightmare

Not a bad season affix wise though the Devour affix (heal or dispel) sucks for warrior cause you are very limited on how to remove it, dungeon pool is okay I really don't like the Azj-Kahet ones at all and I would like a lil more variety on routes.

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CoT is interesting.

That's one where you don't really learn the mechanics at lower difficulty then all of a sudden you care about positioning and dodging orbs on the last boss.

Honestly at +8 I still don't really get the 2nd boss and it's the only one in all the dungeons I don't get. Hug people when cold and dodge the rest?

Siege needs to be deleted. Too much LOS and anti-caster trash. Hardcasters are a huge liability in a group there if you are pushing high keys.

Chris said:

CoT is interesting.

That's one where you don't really learn the mechanics at lower difficulty then all of a sudden you care about positioning and dodging orbs on the last boss.

Honestly at +8 I still don't really get the 2nd boss and it's the only one in all the dungeons I don't get. Hug people when cold and dodge the rest?

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Second boss you want to do a few things, but in reality it is the easiest boss in the dungeon
-Tank needs to stack the pair of them close together for cleave as best they can
- Players need to stack on tank during the cold AoE to dispel it off the tank
- Players Should be near the edges of the room close together so the charges go into the wall and they go nowhere allowing for maximum uptime
-The rest is just the usual maximize uptime while not getting hit by stuff

Third boss is where it gedts bad
-Tank needs to slowly kite the boss around the room so players can stand outside of the floor crap
-Floor crap is spawned as an AoE under the boss AND when you pickup an heal absorb orb, so you want to strageticlly pick them up to not add to the mess
- The AoE is the strongest boss AoE in the dungeon pool so players need room to stack and use personals to survive it, sometimes more then one so they cant really on the other parts of the fight

This leads to players having to take full damage outside of Dark Pulse and stacking a heal abosrb so the healer is going balls out the entire fight, if you dont have lust up forget it after +10

Last boss its on the tank to kite correctly and having the party stack on top of the tank to control where the balls fly to or they go all over leading to deaths. Warriors can reflect splice which is nice, but if you have a group not stacking its game over.

Palum said:

I think the problem is they have abused the current formula to death, and the old chaotic temporary systems were the only thing adding anything new into it. So when you go and stop making those, you get one expansion which feels new (DF). This is the second one which is pure recipe and no spice.

To be clear I don't want temporary power, but I just want the core game to not be so formulaic. Farming gear like it's an ARPG gets old, especially when you don't even get ARPG combat and the time requirements for everything are so much more severe.

Seasons are a pox upon the world. When they were patches, with actual content, that mattered. Now they just demean everything about an RPG.

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Delves were a great idea, but ultimately had a shitty implementation. Having there be 3 "scenarios" in each means there is only one that is fun/fast, and the rest just suck giant floppy donkey dongs. Make it player's choice instead of whatever rando/rotation and that would make it shitloads better.

They need to bring back class halls. Period. Just give us all a port to them, and update the companions and missions to current day and we would be banging. Meatball and Brann for delves would be soooooo much more fun.

moonarchia said:

Delves were a great idea, but ultimately had a shitty implementation. Having there be 3 "scenarios" in each means there is only one that is fun/fast, and the rest just suck giant floppy donkey dongs. Make it player's choice instead of whatever rando/rotation and that would make it shitloads better.

They need to bring back class halls. Period. Just give us all a port to them, and update the companions and missions to current day and we would be banging. Meatball and Brann for delves would be soooooo much more fun.

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Yea delves just aren't anything new unfortunately, they're just scenarios with a bit more standardization. I wanted delves to be pieces of mega dungeons with sprawling areas to do stuff in like BRD or Suramar or something. Instead they're meaningless story wise with meta progression tied into useless chaff items.

Palum said:

Yea delves just aren't anything new unfortunately, they're just scenarios with a bit more standardization. I wanted delves to be pieces of mega dungeons with sprawling areas to do stuff in like BRD or Suramar or something. Instead they're meaningless story wise with meta progression tied into useless chaff items.

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Delves are just a rehashed and rebranded Shadowlands Torghast. Or a BFA Island expedition. They keep changing up the rewards trying to find a happy medium and this is the first time they've really just kind of said "fuck it" and gave competitive gear. I dont think Delves in particular kept people playing longer, but the fact that the gear track was a lot easier to acquire for the average person.

Its nothing "new" if you look at it that way. Hell, everyones been saying its just a scenario and those have been around longer. I can see where theyre coming from, but I dont feel like its the same. Whatever we define it though - I just hope that they make it an evergreen feature from here on out so they'll stop touting that "idea" as an expansion defining feature every time.

Juvarisx said:

Second boss you want to do a few things, but in reality it is the easiest boss in the dungeon
-Tank needs to stack the pair of them close together for cleave as best they can
- Players need to stack on tank during the cold AoE to dispel it off the tank
- Players Should be near the edges of the room close together so the charges go into the wall and they go nowhere allowing for maximum uptime
-The rest is just the usual maximize uptime while not getting hit by stuff

Third boss is where it gedts bad
-Tank needs to slowly kite the boss around the room so players can stand outside of the floor crap
-Floor crap is spawned as an AoE under the boss AND when you pickup an heal absorb orb, so you want to strageticlly pick them up to not add to the mess
- The AoE is the strongest boss AoE in the dungeon pool so players need room to stack and use personals to survive it, sometimes more then one so they cant really on the other parts of the fight

This leads to players having to take full damage outside of Dark Pulse and stacking a heal abosrb so the healer is going balls out the entire fight, if you dont have lust up forget it after +10

Last boss its on the tank to kite correctly and having the party stack on top of the tank to control where the balls fly to or they go all over leading to deaths. Warriors can reflect splice which is nice, but if you have a group not stacking its game over.

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The last Siege I did was an 8 iirc. The healer actually surprised me a bit. They'd clear off the debuff on the last boss, but would ultimately leave it on me longer. The amount of incoming self healing and the damage mitigation a tank has.. it just didnt seem near as pressing as it does on a DPS. I thought that was a smart observation.

I only bring this up because.. I think you get 2 debuffs per cast. But if you already have 1 up, will you end up with 3? If not, and you can basically just deal with 1 per cast because the tank has the other... that seems to trivialize that encounter a bit.

Daidraco said:

Delves are just a rehashed and rebranded Shadowlands Torghast. Or a BFA Island expedition. They keep changing up the rewards trying to find a happy medium and this is the first time they've really just kind of said "fuck it" and gave competitive gear. I dont think Delves in particular kept people playing longer, but the fact that the gear track was a lot easier to acquire for the average person.

Its nothing "new" if you look at it that way. Hell, everyones been saying its just a scenario and those have been around longer. I can see where theyre coming from, but I dont feel like its the same. Whatever we define it though - I just hope that they make it an evergreen feature from here on out so they'll stop touting that "idea" as an expansion defining feature every time.


The last Siege I did was an 8 iirc. The healer actually surprised me a bit. They'd clear off the debuff on the last boss, but would ultimately leave it on me longer. The amount of incoming self healing and the damage mitigation a tank has.. it just didnt seem near as pressing as it does on a DPS. I thought that was a smart observation.

I only bring this up because.. I think you get 2 debuffs per cast. But if you already have 1 up, will you end up with 3? If not, and you can basically just deal with 1 per cast because the tank has the other... that seems to trivialize that encounter a bit.

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Leaving the debuff on the tank is the correct thing to do, the amount of damamge it does must be based on armor or something cause it hardly does anything to any tank. The next cast wont happen till the first debuffs would have naturally expired. Fun trick is you can gamble the debuff as a warrior and reflect it IF you had reflect up before the cast goes off, but its an instant cast so you have to hit reflect before the timer resets.

It's a call to arms.



For the first time in WoW history, unanimous agreement has been reached by MDI, hardcore, and core keyrunners that M+ is not working.

The backlash is finally so great that Blizzard might have to take action by Season 2.

We may be looking at the beginning of a movement that changes how M+ works forever.

jayrebb said:

It's a call to arms.



For the first time in WoW history, unanimous agreement has been reached by MDI, hardcore, and core keyrunners that M+ is not working.

The backlash is finally so great that Blizzard might have to take action by Season 2.

We may be looking at the beginning of a movement that changes how M+ works forever.

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What are they going to do? The formula is fucking boring is the problem. I have gotten KSM usually a couple times an expansion and almost always do some M+ just because. I haven't even done a single M+ this expansion because it's just a chore at this point. The whole interplay between bricking keys, leavers, meta focus, ratings systems and everything is just toxic. If I want to play a game it's to have fun and M+ is the antithesis of fun to me. Everything is oppressive to melee, obnoxious formulaic packs to deal with, the pathing is autistic as fuck and the dungeons are basically copy paste. M+ is the esportification of the most time honored chill MMO experience and I despise it.

Palum said:

What are they going to do? The formula is fucking boring is the problem. I have gotten KSM usually a couple times an expansion and almost always do some M+ just because. I haven't even done a single M+ this expansion because it's just a chore at this point. The whole interplay between bricking keys, leavers, meta focus, ratings systems and everything is just toxic. If I want to play a game it's to have fun and M+ is the antithesis of fun to me. Everything is oppressive to melee, obnoxious formulaic packs to deal with, the pathing is autistic as fuck and the dungeons are basically copy paste. M+ is the esportification of the most time honored chill MMO experience and I despise it.

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Yeah, unsubbed a couple of weeks ago. I don't Raid anymore, and I'm way too old to be bothered about keeping up/chasing item level etc. Think I've bounced off WoW for the last time. I had a ton of fun leveling multiple 60s into the mid-70s, and trying out the new talent/hero trees etc. Took a couple to 80, and after a while just felt that the game was "over" for me.
No harm done, back to single player games.

Argarth said:

Yeah, unsubbed a couple of weeks ago. I don't Raid anymore, and I'm way too old to be bothered about keeping up/chasing item level etc. Think I've bounced off WoW for the last time. I had a ton of fun leveling multiple 60s into the mid-70s, and trying out the new talent/hero trees etc. Took a couple to 80, and after a while just felt that the game was "over" for me.
No harm done, back to single player games.

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Right now I am just playing major patches and random content that is fun because I still enjoy the combat and have a vague attachment to the game at some level. I moved to LotRO for classic MMO gameplay though. At least there's no dragons in wheelchairs there, even if the combat isn't hyper polished.

This was probably the first time I essentially played WoW like a single player game. Health issues aside, I really didn't have the desire to group or raid. I did one heroic on my DH. I jumped in on a bit of a raid, before I had to bail cause I felt shitty. That's it.

Got 2 characters to 610 via solo means, and got that stupid beladar mount, and there just wasn't anything left, except daily/weekly chore shit.

Expansion was fine, I'd place it a bit below Legion, I really don't give a shit about lollore, so that shit didn't bother me much.

I guess I'm just tired of the same formula after 25 years.

If you look at the item levels of the reward structure for each pillar - Delves completely fucked the perception of the other pillars. No one in their right mind can sit here and tell me that a person that did +8 Delves all the way to 610+ only doing delves, that they are even remotely prepared to go into content that is the equivalent for their item level. Heroic Raiding, or Mythic+7. If I had to sit here and evaluate what I would pair a +8 Delve up with in terms of difficulty, I would say that it would roughly be a +2 Mythic. Unpopular opinion, sure - but Delves rewarded an item level of gear that was too high. I was doing +8's in my 550's, and although it was slow and methodical at that item level - should I really be getting 616 from it for the week? Be honest with yourself, here.

This expansion had more people than its had in YEARS get up to an item level that was on par with Heroic Raiding. Of course the people that just soloed up to the 610's are going to want to commit to something that they can roughly match their schedule to with the least amount of people. Thats Mythic+ and thats what is getting all the negative press. You ultimately have very few responsibilities in raiding as a DPS. Compared to Mythic+ where you can get 1/3 of the way into the dungeon before you realize this fucking DPS sucks balls. But you cant turn back now. You have to commit to your choice and hope, as long as you're within the timer, that the rest of the group can carry that person.

Mythic+ needs some work, a lot of it. But I just really think a lot of the negative press has come from people that are diving into keys a lot higher than what they should be aiming for. Simply based on an ill perceived item level. The crest system goes a long ways towards MAKING people practice lower key content, but it doesnt help that that same crest goes all the way up to a +7.

Again, if they got rid of keys altogether - it would alleviate a lot of the toxicity. I can simply say, hey.. we need to restart this dungeon. Bobby Joe over here cant seem to fucking grasp the inner workings of a fucking kick and is doing grey parse damage. Bobby Joe's feelings are going to be hurt, but he's going to fucking go do a key that is appropriate to his skill level. Meanwhile, the MAJORITY of the group can get another person in that spot and be happy campers.

What I did like this season, a WHOLE FUCK LOAD better than LFR - was that they did a single person scenario for the raid so I could at least finish the story. They dont even need to throw loot or crafting pieces at me with that scenario. Just let me see what the fuck is happening without having a bunch of faggots go ape shit because I want to watch a cinematic inside the game instead of on youtube.

But whatever, I unsubscribed last week myself. The changes they are likely to make for Mythic+ will go after the difficulty of the content rather than the intrinsic workings of the system. Which will be welcome, in an overall mood boost to the pillar. But I just dont think thats the answer, and we'll be right back in the same situation when Bobby Joe cant get Mythic tier gear, again, because he doesnt know how to fucking interrupt. Ill be back next season to see whats changed.

Palum said:

Right now I am just playing major patches and random content that is fun because I still enjoy the combat and have a vague attachment to the game at some level. I moved to LotRO for classic MMO gameplay though. At least there's no dragons in wheelchairs there, even if the combat isn't hyper polished.

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Imho, WoW's combat, class and talent design, visuals, audio etc are the best they've ever been right now, but I just stopped logging in so the sub had to go.
Funnily enough, I've been watching the FoH LotRO thread pretty closely for the last few weeks, and watching a few videos on YT even =).
I had a great time with it all those years ago, but... for now at least, the MMO itch has been supressed.

Wrong thread entirely. lul

Daidraco said:

Mythic+ needs some work, a lot of it. But I just really think a lot of the negative press has come from people that are diving into keys a lot higher than what they should be aiming for. Simply based on an ill perceived item level. The crest system goes a long ways towards MAKING people practice lower key content, but it doesnt help that that same crest goes all the way up to a +7.

Again, if they got rid of keys altogether - it would alleviate a lot of the toxicity. I can simply say, hey.. we need to restart this dungeon. Bobby Joe over here cant seem to fucking grasp the inner workings of a fucking kick and is doing grey parse damage. Bobby Joe's feelings are going to be hurt, but he's going to fucking go do a key that is appropriate to his skill level. Meanwhile, the MAJORITY of the group can get another person in that spot and be happy campers.

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Or at least some type of anti-bricking insurance that allows a key to be restarted. I don't care even if it costed currency that had to be grinded weekly or if it was gated. Even the possibility existing to restart a key would tone down the rabid toxicity. Having to re-push a key in PUGs is a serious driver of the most toxic experience possible. It forces the key holder to become a part of the problem. More elitist, more vetting, more flaming and brow-beating. Even if it's gated or you can only restart a key a certain number of times per season, it would massively tone down the current all-time level of toxicity the game is seeing-- since War Within is the most popular expansion in many years, along with like you said, the most Heroic geared population of all time. It's a double whammy for toxicity right now, and it needs a few things added or subtracted to make it more forgiving.

A "key insurance" system that could be activated by the key holder would tone toxicity down just by players being aware that such a system exists, even if it wasn't all that impactful.

Seems like a no-brainer to me and doesn't affect the MDI e-sport crowd too much. They'd probably appreciate being able to re-attempt those 14's and 15's without pushing again a handful of times or however much it'd be allowed.

I know I'd shut up for awhile if I was allowed multiple 10 key attempts. Pushing 8 and 9's in PUG's remains the most unfun in any expansion. Pushing a 14 key in SL S1 was dreaded, sure, it was a nail-biter-- and there was a ton of anxiety about it if you fell down to 14 key, but you could reasonably find a team to get it done. It wasn't the omg wtf is happening chaos that War Within brings with it's massive record population in recent history. Re-pushing in War Within has killed most people's desire to even play.

People have been complaining about the key system for years. Since its inception in fact. But Blizzard is filled with unimaginative hacks who believe things like that somehow keep people subbed longer