Yeah I play on Grizzly Hills, and there's only three guilds that are 16/16 Normal, and the horde guild just transferred in I believe. Other than that the talent pool is dreadful, always has been. We had a great team going 3 nights a week for 3 hours each night, but now we're losing our out-of-this-world rogue dps due to a trip he has to Taiwan, and one of our tanks is tired of the slow progression. We had been progressing steadily in hardmodes each week before the holidays hit a few weeks ago...and now it looks like we're going to drop down a notch or two talent wise with the replacements. Stability is such a key when you are in a guild on a low-progession server.
World of Warcraft: Current Year
- Thread starter hodj
- Start date
Anyone have advice for Zen'shar in brawler's guild? I sidestep his bullshit lasers but sometimes they'll make a sudden 90 degree turn and run me over with no warning
alavaz
Trakanon Raider
- 2,007
- 715
I'd say half of them haven't completed normal modes not because they are incompetent but more than likely due to lack of time spent raiding (6-8 hours per week for most casual guilds), lack of gear and less than optimal comps. My guild would probably have completed most of the normal mode stuff by now if we raided an extra 4 hours per week and had everyone in decent gear.
kitsune
Golden Knight of the Realm
- 628
- 42
some are just really bad at compuer games, though. I found out when we were progressing on heroic spirit kings that our other tank (I went dps as he does maybe 30% of my damagewhen we are both tanking, and his damage did not improve at all when he was dpsing) moves STRICTLY by strafing. Yeah, good luck positioning a boss that does a frontal cleave every few seconds when the tank dances like a retard. We had so many wipes before I made him do 40k dps with his heroic elegon two-hander and tanked it myself
If you made every raider post a screenshot of their interface including hotkeys you'd be able to find the deadweights quite fast, I can tell you that.
The problem with MMO's (and this even extends to many top guilds, let alone the casuals in this example), is that the mindset of people issocasual that people render themselves incapable of taking criticism. Telling someone that what they're doing is ass terrible, (even when phrased nicely) can easily setup a chain reaction of guild drama in where half the guild thinks you're an asshole. It's completely unlike other more skill based games (ie: FPS/RTS) in where you can definitively prove that you're on the right side of an argument and settle things quickly. There's usually enough room for doubt in MMOs that a bad player can convince themselves that the criticism is wrong, and that they're actually in the right for continuing to do X/Y/Z that makes them awful.
Normal gaming in other genres is all about the continual process of: bring your play up to a certain level, get destroyed, reflect on why you got destroyed, raise your level of play again. WoW's mechanics are lenient enough to where people feel like they never have to go through the, "I might suck, better reflect on what I'm doing" phase. As a result, the game has bred a staggering amount of terrible/overconfident players who are utterly incapable of taking criticism or improving. Ugh.
alavaz
Trakanon Raider
- 2,007
- 715
Well there is two sides to that coin. I've been in my guild for about 4 years now and we've raided with pretty much the same 10 core people the entire time. We all give and take criticism from each other quite well.
Of course I have a solid history with my guild and value their opinions. Some random dickhead that is not in my guild telling me what to do I'll probably just ignore outright. If you are a new recruit to a guild, I think your time would be better spent building up some rapport with the members before trying to criticize their playing. I get most of WoW has aspergers and thinks they should just be able to blurt out whatever insult that comes to mind about your bad DPS because it's for you own improvement, but c'mon people do this shit for fun not to be lambasted by socially inept neckbeards.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
- 17,420
- 13,926
It's hard to compare across genres. MMOs have too many variables to neatly equate "You suck because of X". Sometimes it's blatantly obvious, othertimes it's more subtle. Crap DPS could range from anything from spec to gear to rotations to just being bad. People tend to get more defensive because they feel like the victim many times. It's not like a FPS where you can pick up the same gun as the other guy and figure who is better on even terms.
- 1,302
- -627
No. Valor grinding is very much alive and well. Now that you can upgrade each piece of gear 1-2 times past its current iLevel with Valor and the BLack Prince Epic quest line is requiring Valor. They are just finding new places to hide the Valor grind.
This is the perfect example of why people tend to stay shit terrible in WoW (and mmo's in general). You're essentially saying that you prefer to play MMO's in a closed loop feedback system, only listening to a handful of players on whether or not you're playing well. You extend that defense to the point of not just ignoring people outside the guild, but people inside the guild who haven't cracked your inner circle of terrible players. It'sexactlythat type of mentality that leads to perpetually awful guilds/players in the MMO context.
Other genres don't have the above mentioned problems. It's only in the MMO-space where people can invent self-crippling rules like, "I don't know this guy well enough, so I'm going to ignore facts and continue being bad."
alavaz
Trakanon Raider
- 2,007
- 715
See I think you are the perfect example of the closed minded fuckwits who are obsessed with winning so much so that you would almost prefer MMOs to be single player games, except then there would be no inferior minions to lord your superior skills over. Face it man, a lot of us play to work together as a team and we don't necessarily value impeccable fire dodging abilities over a halfway decent personality.
And realistically, I'm not doing shit with people outside of my guild besides heroics and LFR anyway so most feedback is not constructive, nor will I likely ever group with those people again anyway so that point is pretty much moot. WoW is a guild game. If you are pugging normal mode shit then yeah I could see why you'd be frustrated that "no 1 listenz!!!"
Translation: You can't tell JTTheRuler that he's a bad player and be sociable/personable at the same time. Scientifically proven (by him). Once you criticize his play once, you are forever banished to neckbeard sewer troll status.
Am I right?
alavaz
Trakanon Raider
- 2,007
- 715
Sabbat
Trakanon Raider
- 1,970
- 856
Both of you made excellent points, don't spoil a good insight from both sides of the fence by bickering like children. Closed loop systems rarely grow, adapt or learn. Note I said, rarely, because the closed loop systems, either a CounterStrike clan, or an MMO guild CAN learn and grow provided that all members of the team understand that they NEED to learn and grow. It's these guilds in MMOs that rip shit up week after week and have fun doing it. If there was a magic system that you could find 9 other people like this, that played all the right classes, had perfect internet connections and all of them (including yourself) were shining beacons of humanity, then yeah, it would be easy.
Outside information can be a massive jump forward in someones knowledge, depending on the person, because some people just don't want to learn. Telling these people that they suck, and not explaining why, and when the person gets their back up about it, it's more destructive. Avoid those people, find the ones that want to learn and get better. Always challenge yourself to do better, in everything.
In essence, it's the lack of wanting to get better, versus the just scraping by, or needing to get better.
PS: Shit, that sounded like a pre-game pep talk. =(
Outside information can be a massive jump forward in someones knowledge, depending on the person, because some people just don't want to learn. Telling these people that they suck, and not explaining why, and when the person gets their back up about it, it's more destructive. Avoid those people, find the ones that want to learn and get better. Always challenge yourself to do better, in everything.
In essence, it's the lack of wanting to get better, versus the just scraping by, or needing to get better.
PS: Shit, that sounded like a pre-game pep talk. =(
My guild so far has been one of the better "We're more casual than some, but more serious than most but we get shit done." We raid twice a week for 3 hrs each, which is considerably less than any raiding schedule in my past. We have a decent core set, but the real meat of our raiding crew can pull out some phenomenal shit to get things done, and we still have the few people who kinda scrape by or just don't care. We didn't get the "Silence is Golden" achieve on Atramedes until we did him without our ret paladin, because he constantly just sat in "for his dps", even though we would specifically say, hey, fucking stop it.
Some people if you even attempt to say anything will give you something along the lines of "Well, I don't play this game to min/max, I play to have fun." Which is all well and good, but in every guild I've been in, I have only been in it to get shit done, and that was the reason I joined. So, if you're in that guild, and the idea is that everyone should be playing at a certain level, how do you come off half cocked to anyone?
I was in a top teir guild in vanilla; we were number one on our server but merely amongst the pack of good raiders serverwide. However, that was still a far cry from most. After AQ40 we were burned out, and joined a friends guild on a pvp server. It's interesting, that both JTheRuler and ZProtoss highlighted things that I myself have felt - when we moved, they were a guild trying to progress in AQ40 and were serious about doing so. I was playing a healer at the time, but my old main had been a dps class. There were things people were doing that were just blatantly wrong for any number of reasons; strats that were wrong because they weren't coming from a reliable source, dps classes who weren't following rotations, and didn't know shit all about their class. This is all fine if that's the type of guild you're in. But when you start going off about how awesome you are, and how leet the guild is, and woo progression, but then can't take criticism, it's crazy. And I couldn't say anything, because I was new, and it was my friend's guild and I didn't want to make waves.
Eventually however, they hit a wall on progression because they weren't doing the things most guilds do to progress through 40 mans. Their strats were flawed, and they weren't willing to keep banging the encounter out, or make changes to do it correctly. And the collective dps was terrible. Not a damned dps knew their rotation, or things like normalized speeds on weapons etc. We're talking elementary shit about classes that you should know. I did pipe up a few times and was instantly branded as a bitch and know it all, so I shut up.
So I see it both ways. If the guild is working and doing it's thing to it's level, and someone new comes along and wants you to change all your shit, well..that won't happen. But it's an entirely different thing to be failing spectacularly, and have someone point it out, in a nice way, and be told you're an asshole because you want to help.
And this is interesting because I agree it's something I really only see in wow. Most other genres you can really only play one way, whereas MMOs have a sense of casual, and hardcore, etc, etc, meaning someone always has a reason for why they suck and why they don't care if they suck. And that's not really an issue until you're expected to meet a specific level of play, otherwise you are wasting everyone else's time.
Some people if you even attempt to say anything will give you something along the lines of "Well, I don't play this game to min/max, I play to have fun." Which is all well and good, but in every guild I've been in, I have only been in it to get shit done, and that was the reason I joined. So, if you're in that guild, and the idea is that everyone should be playing at a certain level, how do you come off half cocked to anyone?
I was in a top teir guild in vanilla; we were number one on our server but merely amongst the pack of good raiders serverwide. However, that was still a far cry from most. After AQ40 we were burned out, and joined a friends guild on a pvp server. It's interesting, that both JTheRuler and ZProtoss highlighted things that I myself have felt - when we moved, they were a guild trying to progress in AQ40 and were serious about doing so. I was playing a healer at the time, but my old main had been a dps class. There were things people were doing that were just blatantly wrong for any number of reasons; strats that were wrong because they weren't coming from a reliable source, dps classes who weren't following rotations, and didn't know shit all about their class. This is all fine if that's the type of guild you're in. But when you start going off about how awesome you are, and how leet the guild is, and woo progression, but then can't take criticism, it's crazy. And I couldn't say anything, because I was new, and it was my friend's guild and I didn't want to make waves.
Eventually however, they hit a wall on progression because they weren't doing the things most guilds do to progress through 40 mans. Their strats were flawed, and they weren't willing to keep banging the encounter out, or make changes to do it correctly. And the collective dps was terrible. Not a damned dps knew their rotation, or things like normalized speeds on weapons etc. We're talking elementary shit about classes that you should know. I did pipe up a few times and was instantly branded as a bitch and know it all, so I shut up.
So I see it both ways. If the guild is working and doing it's thing to it's level, and someone new comes along and wants you to change all your shit, well..that won't happen. But it's an entirely different thing to be failing spectacularly, and have someone point it out, in a nice way, and be told you're an asshole because you want to help.
And this is interesting because I agree it's something I really only see in wow. Most other genres you can really only play one way, whereas MMOs have a sense of casual, and hardcore, etc, etc, meaning someone always has a reason for why they suck and why they don't care if they suck. And that's not really an issue until you're expected to meet a specific level of play, otherwise you are wasting everyone else's time.
Kreugen
Vyemm Raider
- 6,599
- 793
Oh god, The FUCK YOU I'M CASUAL I'M PLAYING IT MY WAY thing is the worst. It's even worse than I'M A GAMING GOD AND THIS WAY IS RIGHT despite the similarities.
In various MMOs I've seen the "I just play for fun" excuse used for:
-Not moving out of anything
-Using keyboard for all movement
-Using mouse for all movement and abilities (yes they exist and yes they will tell you their way is Right)
-Not using abilities at all (autoattack)
-Using completely the wrong spells, like spamming some wimpy AOE heal because its easier than targeting people
-Using only aoe attacks even on single bosses (TSW thing mainly, where players could have some fuuuucked up retarded builds "because casual/fun")
-Refusing to use "run" Yes, those people exist, and they aren't even roleplayers - they just think it "looks dumb to run everywhere" or "want to slow down and see the world". Yes this was in a group/raid.
-Wearing low level equipment for looks - also in a raid.
-Meleeing as a caster with some weapon with a shitty proc because "it looks cool / its fun / why would they make it if it wasn't good " or some nonsense like that. Try to link meters and, yeah, you can guess the response. "FUCK DAMAGE METERS THEY RUIN THE GAME WHY CAN'T I JUST PLAY FOR FUN BLAH BLAH BLAH" <- repeat that bit nearly any time meters are ever discussed. In fact, a casual guild banned ALL discussion of dps meters because "WE HATE THAT WOW SHIT". I've had this happen in every MMO, but it is _super_ common outside of WoW. Hey fuckheads, if we aren't winning the fight. *I* am not having fun.
-Tanking one mob out of a group and ignoring the rest. "You people need to watch your aggro"
-Pulling every fucking trash mob in the place
-"Bah stop explaining just pull" "But we wiped on all the previous fights because you didn't know what to do" "So what we're just here for fun"
I'm sure there's a lot more that I've tried to sear out of my brain forever.
In various MMOs I've seen the "I just play for fun" excuse used for:
-Not moving out of anything
-Using keyboard for all movement
-Using mouse for all movement and abilities (yes they exist and yes they will tell you their way is Right)
-Not using abilities at all (autoattack)
-Using completely the wrong spells, like spamming some wimpy AOE heal because its easier than targeting people
-Using only aoe attacks even on single bosses (TSW thing mainly, where players could have some fuuuucked up retarded builds "because casual/fun")
-Refusing to use "run" Yes, those people exist, and they aren't even roleplayers - they just think it "looks dumb to run everywhere" or "want to slow down and see the world". Yes this was in a group/raid.
-Wearing low level equipment for looks - also in a raid.
-Meleeing as a caster with some weapon with a shitty proc because "it looks cool / its fun / why would they make it if it wasn't good " or some nonsense like that. Try to link meters and, yeah, you can guess the response. "FUCK DAMAGE METERS THEY RUIN THE GAME WHY CAN'T I JUST PLAY FOR FUN BLAH BLAH BLAH" <- repeat that bit nearly any time meters are ever discussed. In fact, a casual guild banned ALL discussion of dps meters because "WE HATE THAT WOW SHIT". I've had this happen in every MMO, but it is _super_ common outside of WoW. Hey fuckheads, if we aren't winning the fight. *I* am not having fun.
-Tanking one mob out of a group and ignoring the rest. "You people need to watch your aggro"
-Pulling every fucking trash mob in the place
-"Bah stop explaining just pull" "But we wiped on all the previous fights because you didn't know what to do" "So what we're just here for fun"
I'm sure there's a lot more that I've tried to sear out of my brain forever.
People who use that defense usually end up as the biggest self-defeating hypocrites in the end. It's amazing how many people who "just play to have fun" (and use that as an excuse for being bad, regardless of genre) are simultaneously the people who get most upset and whiny when they lose/suck/can't progress. Video games are setup so that in most scenarios you arenotgoing to have fun if you're doing things in a subpar way. You're not having more "fun" in WoW with subpar gear and a troll spec if it causes a 2 hour instance run to take 5 hours. You're not having more "fun" in an FPS/RTS game if your chosen style of play gets you obliterated and causes you to lose. You're not having more "fun" in Dota/LoL when you go middle with an awful melee hero and end up as 3-17 for that particular game.
You're almost always going to be having fun if you're winning. It's rare that you'll have fun if you're continually losing. Which is why the "I'm just playing for fun" excuse is complete bullshit.
Note that in the above I'm not talking about people who are excellent players who occasionally do stuff that's less than optimal for a change of pace. There's a world of difference between knowing how to play well/sometimes doing suboptimal stuff (to see if you can get away with it), andneverbeing good while saying it's just for fun. The former is stuff people do to inject more entertainment into the game. The latter is an excuse used by some of the most awful players in existence.
Nirgon
Log Wizard
- 15,060
- 24,763
Things like xp loss kept these guys out. The casual game allows them to exist at the high levels.
Probably want to make your own guild and kick people who can't get with the program. Then again, you'd probably be in a guild of 6-7 people > : ).
Millions of casual players = millions of dollars = millions of exploded and imploded brain cells from people who are actually playing to win and find that fun. Note also, these people cry when they can't win (see pvp forums as you mention no one ever being happy) and refuse to do it right. But hey, lots of casual type people out there think they are entitled to what they deserve but fail to see the amount of effort it takes to match that reward. Here's another fun hint for those people: in the real world? There isn't a consistent 1:1 ratio on effort invested versus gains returned.
Probably want to make your own guild and kick people who can't get with the program. Then again, you'd probably be in a guild of 6-7 people > : ).
Millions of casual players = millions of dollars = millions of exploded and imploded brain cells from people who are actually playing to win and find that fun. Note also, these people cry when they can't win (see pvp forums as you mention no one ever being happy) and refuse to do it right. But hey, lots of casual type people out there think they are entitled to what they deserve but fail to see the amount of effort it takes to match that reward. Here's another fun hint for those people: in the real world? There isn't a consistent 1:1 ratio on effort invested versus gains returned.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
- 17,420
- 13,926
Theres a difference between sucky play and someone who doesnt want to farm all day so I can prepot on every attempt and consume an entire stack of expensive food.
LFR works great for me. People suck? Laugh and carry it, or just quit and try another group. I'm sick of raiding as a 2nd job.
LFR works great for me. People suck? Laugh and carry it, or just quit and try another group. I'm sick of raiding as a 2nd job.
Actually, I think I actually know what causes the "I just play for fun casual/I rage when I lose" paradox. Most people have jobs in where they're under a boss for 35-40 hours a week. Many of those people have very little independence in their job, and as a result often don't get to do what they want to do. On some level, those people value the ability to be independent and to do whattheywant more than anything else. They don't like losing (who does?), but on some subconscious level they'd rather be independent and lose horribly than take advice from someone else and win easily.
Basically, the need for people to get to do things "their own way"even in the face of overwhelming evidenceis so strong that they'd rather suffer, lose, and rage than give in and follow someone else's advice