2 years later... the almost sad state of MMOs in the new era

Malakriss · May 11, 2020

Today's kiddie gamers won't "explore" anywhere without knowing there's some return. The quest would have to spell out that there's a named monster in the area that can drop their +gooder pants of tranquility or they'll wait until a website has a database to list what's there.

Exploration and seeing the sights got turned into decorating a house. Unique, rare mounts and models got turned into farming a raid lockout timer on 10 alts every week and praying 1% RNG pays off eventually.

Reiker · May 11, 2020

Raes said:
Another funny thing I to this day don't understand is how the fuck Turbine, after it's sequel tanked, somehow got the licenses for not one, but BOTH of the top fantasy IPs.

They have a shitty Game of Thrones mobile game too. Turbine is like the LJN of MMOs.

Ravishing · May 11, 2020

Malakriss said:
Today's kiddie gamers won't "explore" anywhere without knowing there's some return. The quest would have to spell out that there's a named monster in the area that can drop their +gooder pants of tranquility or they'll wait until a website has a database to list what's there.

Exploration and seeing the sights got turned into decorating a house. Unique, rare mounts and models got turned into farming a raid lockout timer on 10 alts every week and praying 1% RNG pays off eventually.

No reason to explore in MMOs when you grow up building your own worlds (Minecraft).
Digital exploration is dead.

Raes · May 13, 2020

Reiker said:
They have a shitty Game of Thrones mobile game too. Turbine is like the LJN of MMOs.

Ackshually...Warner Bros bought Turbine years ago, and were going to shut down Lotro, but some of the Turbine devs split off to make Standing Stone Games and took over Lotro. WB are the ones who made Turbine make that stupid mobile game. It's what they bought them for in the first place.

Cybsled · May 13, 2020

Flobee said:
Old MMO's were designed to replicate the tabletop experience and as such were built as worlds for players to explore and participate in at whatever level they wanted to

Huh? EQ1 slapped level restrictions on stuff extremely early into its run. POF/etc were level 45+ after they redid them from their easy mode versions. Lots of people in my guild logged out level 1 alts in PoF. One guy eventually had a level 1 troll SK in full PoF gear and a CT sword. Was funny as fuck when he finally left PoF and all the noob players thought he was a hacker, running around 1 shooting rats in Innothule.

Flobee · May 13, 2020

Cybsled said:
Huh? EQ1 slapped level restrictions on stuff extremely early into its run. POF/etc were level 45+ after they redid them from their easy mode versions. Lots of people in my guild logged out level 1 alts in PoF. One guy eventually had a level 1 troll SK in full PoF gear and a CT sword. Was funny as fuck when he finally left PoF and all the noob players thought he was a hacker, running around 1 shooting rats in Innothule.

I'm referring to the player's level of participation/interest in the game as a world not mechanical levels to gameplay. I wasn't entirely clear on that in hindsight.

Cybsled · May 13, 2020

Malakriss said:
Today's kiddie gamers won't "explore" anywhere without knowing there's some return. The quest would have to spell out that there's a named monster in the area that can drop their +gooder pants of tranquility or they'll wait until a website has a database to list what's there

let’s not pretend this is a new thing. Even back in EQ1, websites existed to outline rare loots and where to get them. Granted it was player driven data mostly back then, but you can be sure as fuck if data mining was an option back then, that would have been done. But I know for a fact people were getting information from non-ingame sources even back in EQ1, be it dev leaks or otherwise.

ver_21 · May 13, 2020

Cybsled said:
let’s not pretend this is a new thing. Even back in EQ1, websites existed to outline rare loots and where to get them. Granted it was player driven data mostly back then, but you can be sure as fuck if data mining was an option back then, that would have been done. But I know for a fact people were getting information from non-ingame sources even back in EQ1, be it dev leaks or otherwise.

The Carmen Sandiego effect!

jayrebb · May 14, 2020

Cybsled said:
let’s not pretend this is a new thing. Even back in EQ1, websites existed to outline rare loots and where to get them. Granted it was player driven data mostly back then, but you can be sure as fuck if data mining was an option back then, that would have been done. But I know for a fact people were getting information from non-ingame sources even back in EQ1, be it dev leaks or otherwise.

Safehouse forums were a huge source of info pre allakhazams

Daidraco · May 14, 2020

I vaguely remember hordes of people coming here for strategies, cheats/tricks, and guides. By here, I mean.. The original FOH forum/site.

iannis · May 14, 2020

We had a guy in our guild that would serverhop on alts and talk to officers in other uberguilds trying to piece together better raid strats. He was moderately successful.

We weren't bleeding edge of anything, just at the front of our backwoods server.

Most of the core of the build had a social network they drew tidbits from. And it's why they were core. Either that or they poopsocked 24/7.

The main difference is that it seems much less insular these days.

rhinohelix · May 14, 2020

Flobee said:
I've started to feel that these games replicate the wrong parts of their predecessors. They're in good company though as I feel that nearly all MMO's have done this in recent years. I haven't totally put my finger on what it is, but I am starting to believe it has to do with Roleplaying, or at least making a game world with enough depth and personality to warrant players wanting to role play.

Modern mmo's are barely veiled Skinner boxes. They unapologetically design it this way. Old MMO's were designed to replicate the tabletop experience and as such were built as worlds for players to explore and participate in at whatever level they wanted to. It wasn't designed by power gamers for power gamers. I think shit went sideways when raid guild leader types started taking over design. They have good idea's in a vacuum but I think they've unintentionally killed the genre.

I guess I'm just shower-thoughting that this shit is all Furor's fault.

zzeris said:
All worlds were built like EQ except for one key aspect that WoW promoted... easy, productive questing based in hubs. You just moved from quest hub to quest hub until you needed dungeon gear. In EQ, you primarily gained exp from killing shit. So, in a crowded world where certain leveling areas were already camped, you had to explore. Throw in true penalties for death and that quest for the next area to get exp turned into an adventure. GW 2 tried to bring back the exploration with exp gains for every new area you explore but it's not the same. If a game removes the exp value of quests and just makes it an item reward while pushing the mob kill aspect, exploration may return.

Designers will never do it because they want you to do the areas they worked hard on. The quests they put in game. They build the games as much if not more for their own gratification and will never just build a world and let you do what you want. That would waste all of their hard work.

I think that is the best statement/summation of the issue I have seen overall. That early MMOs were emulating Table top campaigns vs new MMOs were are trying to provide the framework to get to raiding in early MMOs is a keen insight. There isn't a great sense of *place* in any of these new games really; they're all amusement park rides that move you through the park on the way to the endgame, some faster, some a little more slowly, all of them with their eyes on the endgame, since THAT is where everyone wants to be. The MMO I most enjoyed in the last decade is GW2 because every different starting location felt like it was its own place, with its own politics and its own problems. Every expansion since launch has focused on the endgame and while I love some of my characters, none of them are worth the slog to max level again and again and again. I miss the mystery, the discovery, the geography of making my way and leveling. Once you are at max level, it can be fun in those lived in shoes but after a certain point what are you playing for/towards?

Give me a cool world with the systems to make a character I can have a connection with and let me build that connection by getting stuff and growing in power having experiences in that world. Fantasy, Sci-fi, whatever: how did people once know this and now can't seem to figure this out? Or have people changed such that "kids these days" don't want that experience?

Cybsled · May 14, 2020

iannis said:
The main difference is that it seems much less insular these days.

Really comes down to instanced vs. uninstanced content. With uninstanced content, you basically have a limited resource and keeping strategies close to the vest means you can exploit that content for as long as possible with minimal competition. The only "public" help the BFA received in EQ1 that I am aware of was from Brotherhood of the Spider (DROW), which provided us with their Ventani strategy so we could wake the sleeper. Although it wouldn't half surprise me if our guildies that got poached by FOH gave some of our officer core some sekret strats when possible lol

But we used to have tons of spawns on monopoly lockdown because of tricks needed to either get to the boss or actually beat the boss.

When the content is instanced, then other guilds arent actually resource competitors anymore, so keeping strategies close to the vest doesn't matter as much. The only time you do see that is when people are trying to get world first. After that, they usually don't care if it becomes public knowledge.

RobXIII · May 14, 2020

Cybsled said:
let’s not pretend this is a new thing. Even back in EQ1, websites existed to outline rare loots and where to get them. Granted it was player driven data mostly back then, but you can be sure as fuck if data mining was an option back then, that would have been done. But I know for a fact people were getting information from non-ingame sources even back in EQ1, be it dev leaks or otherwise.

I remember reading everlore.com at work (night shift) and my boss thought it was everlove.com lol

Everlore - A Deeper Look into Everquest

Everquest, EverLore, maps, ever, quest, spells, guide, EQ, RPG, Role Playing, RPG, Guilds, gaming, hints, cheats, spoiler

web.archive.org

Ukerric · May 15, 2020

Cybsled said:
Really comes down to instanced vs. uninstanced content. With uninstanced content, you basically have a limited resource and keeping strategies close to the vest means you can exploit that content for as long as possible with minimal competition.

Yea. I remember the time when we were pretty sure we were the only people to have figured out how to make Emperorbane weapons for SSRA. It broke out in the open weeks later, but we had already spent days of AOE raid farms down in the basement tunnels.

Cybsled · May 15, 2020

Ugh, I hated farming the stupid ore for that shit. Bane weapons were the shittiest design ever. If I recall for Lord Seru, certain classes could circumvent the need for Serubane weapons. I never recall needing one for my monk and our SK main tank (Xate) used to corner tank w/o one.

DickTrickle · May 15, 2020

Cybsled said:
Ugh, I hated farming the stupid ore for that shit. Bane weapons were the shittiest design ever. If I recall for Lord Seru, certain classes could circumvent the need for Serubane weapons. I never recall needing one for my monk and our SK main tank (Xate) used to corner tank w/o one.

Can't think of any reason why a monk wouldn't need one unless they were okay doing almost no damage.

SK tanking not needing it makes sense since it can keep aggro without even swinging a weapon.

Flobee · May 15, 2020

rhinohelix said:
Give me a cool world with the systems to make a character I can have a connection with and let me build that connection by getting stuff and growing in power having experiences in that world. Fantasy, Sci-fi, whatever: how did people once know this and now can't seem to figure this out? Or have people changed such that "kids these days" don't want that experience?

IMO this has to do with the capital side of game making. If I'm investing in Everquest 3 then I want some level of assurance that I will get a decent ROI for my investment. This is great to get developers money to work on projects, but it creates incentive structures for the game that are not healthy for gameplay because they are maximized for profit. Everquest had investors, but, since a lot of the content in EQ was pulled from other sources (D&D, Sojourn, etc) that did not have the profit incentive structure it still ended up being good. One step towards better games is to get the finance folks out of the dev room, and Indie dev may be the primary way to do this.

That is probably an oversimplification but from my spot on the recliner it seems like a solid theory.

Grizzlebeard · May 15, 2020

Ukerric said:
Yea. I remember the time when we were pretty sure we were the only people to have figured out how to make Emperorbane weapons for SSRA. It broke out in the open weeks later, but we had already spent days of AOE raid farms down in the basement tunnels.

I remember farming the Divine Hammer of Consternation back in Luclin when we were running low on warriors and Emp's Rampage was eating people up. Don't think anyone believed it would work but I OT'd Emp and AHR with that little sucker (with moderate success).

The last MMO I played that had items with interesting abilities in was FFXI. I think the days of inventiveness and variety in gear has long since died though and that contributes hugely to why I can't get excited about modern MMOs.

Cybsled · May 15, 2020

DickTrickle said:
Can't think of any reason why a monk wouldn't need one unless they were okay doing almost no damage.

SK tanking not needing it makes sense since it can keep aggro without even swinging a weapon.

It's been forever, but I think the monk epic still let you damage him? There was some type of work around. I recall monks needing to control their DPS because of how we had to manage aggro and none of us had Serubane from what I recall.

There was also another weapon which hurt Seru, but it was a regular raid drop from Luclin somewhere and not a specific Serubane weapon. I can't recall what class could use that or what weapon it was, but I specifically remember it existed because people in the guild used to bitch about how X got a free serubane weapon and they all had to farm that shit.

2 years later... the almost sad state of MMOs in the new era

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