TrollfaceDeux
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it doesn't help that they are poor as fuck and they are not raised to give a shit about their education. cycle of poverty.
Abortion
- Thread starter Julian The Apostate
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Well at least RU-486 is only a hypothetical, so we don't need to worry our pretty little heads about it.
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The zygote is a human being. When do you magically think you can define a human being as a human being if not for that phase, and on what basis.
Caliane
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which is kindof hilarious.
"God" (evolution) designed mammals with the innate natural ability to spontaneously abort a fetus/pregnancy when the mothers life is in danger, or the baby has had development problems.
So "God" specifically made it so we naturally abort. God is evidently pro-choice.
RU-486 would not work, if the human body was not built to spontaneously abort.
As many as 25% of pregnancy spontaneously abort before the female even knows she is pregnant.
Life begins at conception right? god kills 25% of babies, with no chance of getting baptised, since no one even knew they existed.
Caliane
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or should be called, "holy shit I was raped, is there something that can help me?"
Oddly that doesn't sound as nice though. Either way, I think you might be missing one of the main draws for it.
What? That's completely wrong. There's no reason why people have miscarriages in most cases. There's no innate ability that humans have where women just have miscarriages due to them feeling danger or the baby having some sort of disease.
Yeah Caliane you basically supported that whole "women raped self abort" bullshit that was thrown out during the elections.
Caliane
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Miscarriages occur for a great deal many reasons. stress is certainly one of them.
...is that really what you got from that?
I've never heard of stress causing a miscarriage but I suppose it's possible since in most cases they don't know why the miscarriage happened unless it was due to something obvious like physical damage.
One thing I do know is that "God" or evolution didn't specifically make it so humans or any other animal naturally aborts. That would be contrary to the goals of both "God" and evolution. A miscarriage is like any other medical issue that can happen to people.
Caliane
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not at all. Pregnancy plays hell with a females body and reduces their survival capability greatly. the ability to induce miscarriage in a troubled pregnancy or when under the threat of a predator is a pretty basic evolutionary and biological response.
(i should note I use "Stress" in the biological sense. not emotional, or mechanical)
I mean, take a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage
yeah its not common for a pregnant woman to get chased by a mountain lion anymore.
"Another factor is exercise. A study of more than 92,000 pregnant women found that most types of exercise (with the exception of swimming) correlated with a higher risk of miscarrying prior to 18 weeks"
But its an evolutionary response. Body says, oh shit, you need to run. it will kill the baby to preserve the mother.
Genetic defects, still borns, etc. Body will kill the baby and miscarriage to preserve the mother in many cases.
Internal bleeding issues, can endanger both of course.
Evolutionary it makes sense. but we can't argue that with zealots. we have to put it in terms of god. and as such, if GOD designed the body to preserve the mother first, and the child second. the fuck is their problem? Because god is obviously pro-choice.
(i should note I use "Stress" in the biological sense. not emotional, or mechanical)
I mean, take a look
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage
yeah its not common for a pregnant woman to get chased by a mountain lion anymore.
"Another factor is exercise. A study of more than 92,000 pregnant women found that most types of exercise (with the exception of swimming) correlated with a higher risk of miscarrying prior to 18 weeks"
But its an evolutionary response. Body says, oh shit, you need to run. it will kill the baby to preserve the mother.
Genetic defects, still borns, etc. Body will kill the baby and miscarriage to preserve the mother in many cases.
Internal bleeding issues, can endanger both of course.
Evolutionary it makes sense. but we can't argue that with zealots. we have to put it in terms of god. and as such, if GOD designed the body to preserve the mother first, and the child second. the fuck is their problem? Because god is obviously pro-choice.
Hmm I just read the study associated with the exercise quote and they say that it doesn't have much meaning and that conclusions shouldn't be jumped to as exercise is healthy. Everywhere else that I looked said that exercising during pregnancies was fine unless there is already a problem.
It's a given that many things could play a role in a miscarriage but I still don't think that "God" or evolution is one of them. Things like hormones which could be caused by some sort of stress or outside influence for example, I don't know how that abortion pill works but I'll assume that it's related to hormones, so I suppose that stress could cause a problem. Does that make it based on "God" or evolution though? Again, I don't think so. Logic tells me that if anything "God" and evolution would make it more difficult to have a miscarriage due to things like stress.
One thing that is absolutely silly and that I find rather offensive is that miscarriages happen if the baby has some sort of defect. I don't think that's true at all and I've never heard or seen any evidence of it. Having helped people born with birth defects I can say that they most certainly don't cause some sort of evolutionary abortion as you seem to think. I just searched it extensively and I don't see any real evidence of that being true either. Does the mother's body even interact with the baby like that? I don't think so because if that were the case then nobody would be born with a birth defect due to the mother's body policing the baby's development, causing them to be killed via evolutionary abortion.
It's a given that many things could play a role in a miscarriage but I still don't think that "God" or evolution is one of them. Things like hormones which could be caused by some sort of stress or outside influence for example, I don't know how that abortion pill works but I'll assume that it's related to hormones, so I suppose that stress could cause a problem. Does that make it based on "God" or evolution though? Again, I don't think so. Logic tells me that if anything "God" and evolution would make it more difficult to have a miscarriage due to things like stress.
One thing that is absolutely silly and that I find rather offensive is that miscarriages happen if the baby has some sort of defect. I don't think that's true at all and I've never heard or seen any evidence of it. Having helped people born with birth defects I can say that they most certainly don't cause some sort of evolutionary abortion as you seem to think. I just searched it extensively and I don't see any real evidence of that being true either. Does the mother's body even interact with the baby like that? I don't think so because if that were the case then nobody would be born with a birth defect due to the mother's body policing the baby's development, causing them to be killed via evolutionary abortion.
Caliane
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what? the wiki even sites sources.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00329132
http://www.healthcentral.com/encyclopedia/408/626.html
(hrm, although that citation claims severe fright and extreme exercise does not cause it. while others do agree extreme physical exertion does.)
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00329132
http://www.healthcentral.com/encyclopedia/408/626.html
Disease, defects and stress.
(hrm, although that citation claims severe fright and extreme exercise does not cause it. while others do agree extreme physical exertion does.)
I can't believe there's 35 pages of this shit. Unless she can squirt it out alive/breathing on its own, abort the fucking thing.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Really? So glad that both my nieces should have been aborted because my sister probably wouldn't have survived either breech birth.
I read through most of the sources on the wiki. None of them really address the issue, which is why miscarriages and specifically those miscarriages where the baby has a defect happen. Sure, stress could possibly be a reason (but again, there was no real evidence of that), there could be any number of things. But it doesn't appear that "God" or evolution play any role in a miscarriage. As I said, logic points in the opposite direction, "God" and evolution would make it very difficult to miscarry.
You are still being offensive towards people with defects and disabilities. Did you ever think that instead of "God" or evolution thinning the herd of weaklings, that the reason more miscarriages happen to mothers and babies with defects is because something simply happened to the baby? We already know that they had a defect, perhaps said defect just got the best of them and they died in the womb. Again, in my mind that is the logical reason for such a statistic.
How does it work in your mind? I guess it doesn't matter as long as we bully religious people, bully and hurt mothers who have miscarriages, and bully babies who weren't strong enough to make it by calling them defective. Awesome job.
You are still being offensive towards people with defects and disabilities. Did you ever think that instead of "God" or evolution thinning the herd of weaklings, that the reason more miscarriages happen to mothers and babies with defects is because something simply happened to the baby? We already know that they had a defect, perhaps said defect just got the best of them and they died in the womb. Again, in my mind that is the logical reason for such a statistic.
How does it work in your mind? I guess it doesn't matter as long as we bully religious people, bully and hurt mothers who have miscarriages, and bully babies who weren't strong enough to make it by calling them defective. Awesome job.
I remember a while back, a pro-life (or whatever they call themselves) speaker came to make her case at my high school. I went to a very small, very fundamentalist christian high school. She was actually a really good speaker and didn't just appeal to OMG TEH BIBLE TEH BIBBLLLEEEEEE, but made some decent points about the availability of adoption, personal choices, and mainly just the concept of giving what she considered to be a human being a chance. Decent talk, wouldn't have really swayed me these days but she wasn't accusatory or just plain vicious towards people with different views- very calm and collected, making her case and doing so in a respectful way. She also revealed to us that she was born as a product of her mother being raped. That one sort of stuck with me.
She did of course go into the religious aspect somewhat, but not too deeply, and then finished up her speech by leading the student assembly in prayer (we always began and ended student assemblies in prayer). Just a simple prayer, nothing long or anything like that, and we were dismissed and went back to class. Not 5 minutes after we were all back in class, our principal announce an apology from the school administration over the intercom for a woman leading the student body in prayer, and that it never would have been allowed had she told them she'd do it beforehand. You see, the denomination that founded and dominated our school didn't believe women should lead prayer or any kind of services where males were present. The principal apologized for the anti-abortion lady leading a prayer.
It's a tangent, I know, and probably doesn't add to the discussion in this thread in any way, but for some reason, every time I hear the abortion debate raging, and see it being co-opted by the religious, I think of that moment. Take it as you will, but when I see fundamentalists dominating the discussion, I can't help but wonder how many in the debate are composed of that crowd.
She did of course go into the religious aspect somewhat, but not too deeply, and then finished up her speech by leading the student assembly in prayer (we always began and ended student assemblies in prayer). Just a simple prayer, nothing long or anything like that, and we were dismissed and went back to class. Not 5 minutes after we were all back in class, our principal announce an apology from the school administration over the intercom for a woman leading the student body in prayer, and that it never would have been allowed had she told them she'd do it beforehand. You see, the denomination that founded and dominated our school didn't believe women should lead prayer or any kind of services where males were present. The principal apologized for the anti-abortion lady leading a prayer.
It's a tangent, I know, and probably doesn't add to the discussion in this thread in any way, but for some reason, every time I hear the abortion debate raging, and see it being co-opted by the religious, I think of that moment. Take it as you will, but when I see fundamentalists dominating the discussion, I can't help but wonder how many in the debate are composed of that crowd.