Ancient Civilizations

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Ukerric

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A good reminder that most ancient civilizations were between stage 1 & 2 of development.

Just like you have Kardashev scale for space-faring civilizations, you have a scale of development for planet-bound civilizations:

Stage 0: Human power (hunter-gatherers, early agriculture)
Stage 1: Animal power (advanced agriculture, early cities)
Stage 2: Natural power (that is, wind & water power; early "mass" production)
Stage 3: Engine power (steam, fuel or electricity; industrial age & high-production agriculture)
Stage 4: Storable power (electricity, essentially, with batteries at the low scale and gravity storage at the other end; "modern" age)

If Atlantis existed, it was at stage 2, or maybe a very, very early 3 if you insist. Stage 3 civilizations will leave distinct traces in the record (unless they magically go from waterwheels to renewables, at which point you can expect aliens to show up in your theory). Extensive stage 3 civilizations will deforest, dig and exhaust coal mines and empty fossil fuel deposits. The deforestation (wood-fueled engines) will vanish, the mining will not.

The Ancient World (that we know) went from mostly 1 to between 1 & 2. You had a few uses of natural power (the lift mentioned above, the beautiful "industrial" mills of the romans, wind-powered ships), but not everywhere and not systematic. The post-roman world saw the generalization of the waterwheel and the wind mills wherever it was possible.
 
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Araysar

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Chukzombi said:
its not so much disappeared but as a dissipation. the whatever disaster that swept Atlantis into the ocean would have spread the ruins all over the coast line or into sea. what was left was looted and repurposed by the locals or just buried over time. Mauritania just so happens to have the worlds biggest resource for gold.
en.wikipedia.org

Tasiast Gold Mine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
in case you were wondering why such a major trade hub would be so far from Europe.
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They can find 15 tons of gold there but not a single Atlantean artifact from 10K years ago, eh?
 
Rajaah

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Siddar said:
Dangerous to those who believe stuff that frauds are producing about Atlantis and tangentially potentially dangerous to the system of science because it shows public is all to willing to abandon science in search of some romantic and mystical notion of the past.

Why are you reading leftist trash like the guardian though?
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Not reading it, Bright Insight was talking about it.

Why is anybody's opinion dangerous, though? They're opinions. I don't think that acknowledging the possibility of past civilizations is an automatic discounting of science or the known history of civilization.

At this point, given how much we've been lied to in real time about virtually everything for over a half decade, I have to pretty much go back and question the official story of the entire last century and wonder if the good guys we're taught about were really the good guys in any of it. Then I have to go back and question the entire history of humanity and wonder how many times civilization has collapsed previously because of vampires sucking the blood out of it until it can't stand up anymore.

If they don't want people questioning every goddamn thing that's ever happened, maybe they shouldn't have completely destroyed people's trust in the establishment and institutions in the first place.
 
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Rajaah

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Chukzombi said:
you know about as much as anyone else what was or wasnt in Mauritania 10k years ago. you're entitled to your opinion, but thats all it is.
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Yep.

Burns said:
The industrial revolution and every decade since it started has put enough shit in the atmosphere to be noticed in, at a minimum, Greenland's glaciers and eventually Antarctica's massive glaciers (not to mention the various other glaciers around the world). The Greenland glaciers go back at least 100,000 years and the Antarctic ones go back at least 750,000 years. Explaining how an industrial, let alone an advanced society developed without leaving a trace in the ice cores, especially so close to Greenland, seems like an extreme hurdle.
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That's a very good point, and I mulled over that a while ago. The possible solution I came up with is that they may not have had an industrial revolution (if they were at a Greek-era level of technology) and may have simply been an earlier than thought Iron Age. If they did have advanced technology, it might have been a completely different branch of technology from the branch we went down. Instead of silicon, they might have used crystals for data storage, or something else people haven't even thought of in our era. Who knows. Acoustic levitation instead of construction vehicles. Teleportation instead of combustion engines and flight. Who knows?

The expectation that they'd leave a layer of industrial era soot in the ice record is from an assumption that they followed the same technological path. Like beaming radio waves out into the universe and hoping they hit an alien planet what happens to be right on the radio wave part of their development, even though that era might only be a scant hundred years, or might not happen at all if they found an alternate tech path.

Hell, even right here on Earth you can look around and see different continents having completely different tech paths until they started sharing everything. Northern hemisphere developed antivirals to kill malaria, while the southern hemisphere developed more aggressive voodoo dances to solve all of their problems.

One more thing, as far as the internet and silicon chips and computer tech goes... if something wipes 99% of us out tomorrow, how long before all of that tech becomes useless? A month? How long before the last people who remember how it all worked die off? A couple decades? How long before the books and writings detailing them crumble into dust, 500 years? How long before the actual physical objects completely deteriorate into metals and dust? 6000 years?

10,000 years from now there would be absolutely no trace of the internet, viewscreens, or the way we made advanced technology by digging silicon material out of the ground and using it for its conductive properties.
 
Chukzombi

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Rajaah said:
Yep.



That's a very good point, and I mulled over that a while ago. The possible solution I came up with is that they may not have had an industrial revolution (if they were at a Greek-era level of technology) and may have simply been an earlier than thought Iron Age. If they did have advanced technology, it might have been a completely different branch of technology from the branch we went down. Instead of silicon, they might have used crystals for data storage, or something else people haven't even thought of in our era. Who knows. Acoustic levitation instead of construction vehicles. Teleportation instead of combustion engines and flight. Who knows?

The expectation that they'd leave a layer of industrial era soot in the ice record is from an assumption that they followed the same technological path. Like beaming radio waves out into the universe and hoping they hit an alien planet what happens to be right on the radio wave part of their development, even though that era might only be a scant hundred years, or might not happen at all if they found an alternate tech path.

Hell, even right here on Earth you can look around and see different continents having completely different tech paths until they started sharing everything. Northern hemisphere developed antivirals to kill malaria, while the southern hemisphere developed more aggressive voodoo dances to solve all of their problems.

One more thing, as far as the internet and silicon chips and computer tech goes... if something wipes 99% of us out tomorrow, how long before all of that tech becomes useless? A month? How long before the last people who remember how it all worked die off? A couple decades? How long before the books and writings detailing them crumble into dust, 500 years? How long before the actual physical objects completely deteriorate into metals and dust? 6000 years?

10,000 years from now there would be absolutely no trace of the internet, viewscreens, or the way we made advanced technology by digging silicon material out of the ground and using it for its conductive properties.
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It's best not to hype up the ancients. just because they had unknown methods of technology it doesn't mean they were magic. They were people just like us. The Minoans, which were supposed to be advanced and one of the suspected locations for Atlantis were very much an interesting culture. Their women walked around with their tits out. Intentionally.
main-qimg-ffb081ff9d23a242d21997d8c8e7f3e4.png

I admit that's pretty cool if the woman is young and beautiful, but probably not so great if she's old and ugly.
 
Daidraco

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Rajaah said:
Not reading it, Bright Insight was talking about it.

Why is anybody's opinion dangerous, though? They're opinions. I don't think that acknowledging the possibility of past civilizations is an automatic discounting of science or the known history of civilization.

At this point, given how much we've been lied to in real time about virtually everything for over a half decade, I have to pretty much go back and question the official story of the entire last century and wonder if the good guys we're taught about were really the good guys in any of it. Then I have to go back and question the entire history of humanity and wonder how many times civilization has collapsed previously because of vampires sucking the blood out of it until it can't stand up anymore.

If they don't want people questioning every goddamn thing that's ever happened, maybe they shouldn't have completely destroyed people's trust in the establishment and institutions in the first place.
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Ever since I heard "opinions are dangerous" and all that shit back in COVID / the "shot" - I think the forced "story" that overwrites everyone elses opinion is actually more dangerous. What you and I may find to be absolutely stupid may not necessarily be false. Billy Bob could say that Horse Manure cures Psoriasis. We obviously know that Horse Manure doesnt cure Psoriasis, but if an inquisitive person was to take up him on his word and find that Billy Bob's Horses actually had a bacteria that was isolated to just them, that it may just in fact cure Psoriasis. Completely moronic example, but Im just using it to prove a point. Instead we're met with "SILENCE ALL OTHER OPINIONS - This Doctor that has 100's of millions invested into Pharmaceutical Companies is obviously the only source we should be looking to for answers!"
 
Burns

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Daidraco said:
Ever since I heard "opinions are dangerous" and all that shit back in COVID / the "shot" - I think the forced "story" that overwrites everyone elses opinion is actually more dangerous. What you and I may find to be absolutely stupid may not necessarily be false. Billy Bob could say that Horse Manure cures Psoriasis. We obviously know that Horse Manure doesnt cure Psoriasis, but if an inquisitive person was to take up him on his word and find that Billy Bob's Horses actually had a bacteria that was isolated to just them, that it may just in fact cure Psoriasis. Completely moronic example, but Im just using it to prove a point. Instead we're met with "SILENCE ALL OTHER OPINIONS - This Doctor that has 100's of millions invested into Pharmaceutical Companies is obviously the only source we should be looking to for answers!"
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This type of thinking is giving snake oil salesmen and charlatans too much of a pass. Just because some public health professionals, not using scientific methods, tried to social engineer the world doesn't mean magical thinking should automatically get a pass. Society jumping on board, getting scared, and shouting down minority opinions is just humans being humans. The more scared they are, the louder they get.

Furthermore criticizing any theory and poking holes in it, then trying to find ways to test it, is the basis of the scientific method and critical thinking. While I don't think magical thinking about ancient civilizations or even modern alien abductions can be harmful to vast majority of people who believe in it, stuff like Homeopathy is a billion dollar industry of fraud.
 
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Rajaah

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Burns said:
Furthermore criticizing any theory and poking holes in it, then trying to find ways to test it, is the basis of the scientific method and critical thinking. While I don't think magical thinking about ancient civilizations or even modern alien abductions can be harmful to vast majority of people who believe in it, stuff like Homeopathy is a billion dollar industry of fraud.
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What's your opinion on chiropractors? I go to those all the time. Unsure if cracking sounds are doing much besides making people feel like they're doing something, thus producing good chemicals.
 
mkopec

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Even so, 750,000 years, as far as glaciers go, is still just a minute or two on the grand clock of the earth as a habitable planet.
 
Burns

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Rajaah said:
What's your opinion on chiropractors? I go to those all the time. Unsure if cracking sounds are doing much besides making people feel like they're doing something, thus producing good chemicals.
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I think Chiropractors are great for getting the true value of your vehicle out of insurance companies, if you run heavily modified cars or classic vehicles.

As for their effectiveness, there are other professions that do the same thing without all the accompanying bullshit claims that their schools pronounce (curing a cold through alignment, etc.). It's funny when quizzed about such claims, the answer is usually, "well MY chiropractor doesn't believe in all that."
 
Chris

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Rajaah said:
The possible solution I came up with is that they may not have had an industrial revolution (if they were at a Greek-era level of technology) and may have simply been an earlier than thought Iron Age.
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So sounds like it's just the Minoans then? Seems like they had Egypt/Mesopotamia tech before Greece did. By tech it could just be the concept of a "palace" which is what it's famous for.
 
Rajaah

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mkopec said:
Even so, 750,000 years, as far as glaciers go, is still just a minute or two on the grand clock of the earth as a habitable planet.
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Yeah, any number of civilizations could have existed before that that wouldn't be in the ice record.

(I personally don't think this was the case and think civilization of any kind is a recent phenomenon in the last 50,000 years or so, but the Silurian Hypothesis exists)

What if the pyramids, a potential Richat city, etc are way older than we think and are actually from 30,000+ years ago? How possible is that? I.e. how possible is it that 30,000 year old pyramids would still be standing?

I'd err towards all of the above being much more recent, especially if people in 500 BC still had historical legend about Atlantis being not too distant from them.

The guesses I've seen at Atlantis' timeframe have been: 30,000 years ago, 18,000-12,000 years ago, 5000 years ago. They're all over the place. Was the 12,000 years ago flood THE great flood of Noah, or was Noah's a second, later flood? The Bible's got it happening at what, 3000 BC? Yet we've got the north atlantic glacial maximum melting down, and a likely massive explosion of water, at 10000 BC or so.

Kind of cool that Atlantis has become such a huge thing for me to mull over lately, after decades of always hearing about "the lost city of atlantis" and thinking it was just some fable people made up in the 1500s about a city that fell off a cliff or something, who cares. Turns out it might have been a way bigger deal, if it was the forerunner for the Egyptians/Greeks/Romans and the pioneer of travel/mapping/trade routes in the Sahara / Atlantic region.
 
Chukzombi

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Rajaah said:
Yeah, any number of civilizations could have existed before that that wouldn't be in the ice record.

(I personally don't think this was the case and think civilization of any kind is a recent phenomenon in the last 50,000 years or so, but the Silurian Hypothesis exists)

What if the pyramids, a potential Richat city, etc are way older than we think and are actually from 30,000+ years ago? How possible is that? I.e. how possible is it that 30,000 year old pyramids would still be standing?

I'd err towards all of the above being much more recent, especially if people in 500 BC still had historical legend about Atlantis being not too distant from them.

The guesses I've seen at Atlantis' timeframe have been: 30,000 years ago, 18,000-12,000 years ago, 5000 years ago. They're all over the place. Was the 12,000 years ago flood THE great flood of Noah, or was Noah's a second, later flood? The Bible's got it happening at what, 3000 BC? Yet we've got the north atlantic glacial maximum melting down, and a likely massive explosion of water, at 10000 BC or so.

Kind of cool that Atlantis has become such a huge thing for me to mull over lately, after decades of always hearing about "the lost city of atlantis" and thinking it was just some fable people made up in the 1500s about a city that fell off a cliff or something, who cares. Turns out it might have been a way bigger deal, if it was the forerunner for the Egyptians/Greeks/Romans and the pioneer of travel/mapping/trade routes in the Sahara / Atlantic region.
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It might not have been called Atlantis. It could have been a different name, but named Atlantis by Greeks because it's in the Atlas mountains. And the story of Atlantis is OLD, written down 2200 years ago about an ancient civ that sank beneath the waves, 8000 years prior. This could all be just a campfire story. 10000 years is a long ass time ago and some exaggeration is bound to have happened.

That being said, I think it's very probable that there was an ancient civ, one that was considered advanced for 10k years ago and some natural disaster happened to it which caused a giant tsunami to wash it away. None of that is unheard of. Why people jack themselves off in denying that it's a plausible scenario, I'm not sure of. The Richat structure lines up a lot of the legend. At least enough to be a likely candidate for the location of the story. And even if that was just a story, we have more example of lost civs from that timeline. 30 years ago, ancient Egypt was the oldest ancient civ. Now there are multiple which are much older and disappeared in mysterious circumstances.
 
Sylas

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Not sure why you guys keep referencing the ice core records? There are no records from around 100k years ago to 12k years ago all that shit melted and is in the ocean.

Remember the 100 foot tall ice walls of glaciers that covered north America and Europe? Aka The ice age? Back when the ocean sea levels were 400 feet lower than they were now?

Yeah so meteors or climate change or whatever melted all that shit but you still think that Greenland/Antarctica glaciers were untouched? Do you think its just a sheer 200 foot tall cliff of ice there? They kept all of their ice when the rest of the world lost 100 feet of it? They lose and regain half their mass annually just from seasonal temperature change but they still have all that historical ice record?

fuck no. The top 100k years or so worth of ice formation also melted. That data is lost.

We could of had 30 industrial revolutions over the last 100k years and the ice core record would never know about it.
 
Daidraco

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Rajaah said:
Yeah, any number of civilizations could have existed before that that wouldn't be in the ice record.

(I personally don't think this was the case and think civilization of any kind is a recent phenomenon in the last 50,000 years or so, but the Silurian Hypothesis exists)

What if the pyramids, a potential Richat city, etc are way older than we think and are actually from 30,000+ years ago? How possible is that? I.e. how possible is it that 30,000 year old pyramids would still be standing?

I'd err towards all of the above being much more recent, especially if people in 500 BC still had historical legend about Atlantis being not too distant from them.

The guesses I've seen at Atlantis' timeframe have been: 30,000 years ago, 18,000-12,000 years ago, 5000 years ago. They're all over the place. Was the 12,000 years ago flood THE great flood of Noah, or was Noah's a second, later flood? The Bible's got it happening at what, 3000 BC? Yet we've got the north atlantic glacial maximum melting down, and a likely massive explosion of water, at 10000 BC or so.

Kind of cool that Atlantis has become such a huge thing for me to mull over lately, after decades of always hearing about "the lost city of atlantis" and thinking it was just some fable people made up in the 1500s about a city that fell off a cliff or something, who cares. Turns out it might have been a way bigger deal, if it was the forerunner for the Egyptians/Greeks/Romans and the pioneer of travel/mapping/trade routes in the Sahara / Atlantic region.
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I think a lot of the stories the human races has told, whether from religions or not, came from when the Black Sea was flooded (or the surrounding seas). From the time the Black Sea was much lower at its fresh water levels, there were different civilizations/cities that lived on its shores. When the water started to spill over into that area, it would fill the entire lake up at about a foot and a half daily. This doesnt sound "too extreme" until you think back that these people had to drop everything they had and walk hundreds of miles just to reach an area where the water wasnt rising anymore. No telling how many dips and rises occurred as they traveled, and the people that "thought" they were safe getting stranded. Before they knew it, they were on a shrinking island, and the closest land was getting further and further away. You can only slog through mud and a couple of feet of water for so long, and you can only swim but for so long before you're exhausted. The people with boats really would be considered saviors at that point.

Who is to say that one of those cities buried under all the salt water layers of debris wasnt Atlantis? Or that the whole catastrophe didnt go on to encourage the story of Noah's Ark? This was 5000-6000 BC and its in such a central location of the world that the story of the catastrophe could spread all over, including China.
 
Chris

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Chukzombi said:
The Richat structure lines up a lot of the legend. At least enough to be a likely candidate for the location of the story.
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You guys keep bringing this up. I debunked it with the elevation maps. It's on a fucking mountain.

Screenshot_20240730-185622_Chrome.jpg


It's impossible for it to be the capital of a seafaring civilisation, anything like that would be underwater LIKE THE LEGEND SAYS!

Last time the discussion moved to tectonic plates being displaced and continent sized tidal waves to keep the cope alive. Let it go.
 
Daidraco

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Chris said:
You guys keep bringing this up. I debunked it with the elevation maps. It's on a fucking mountain.

View attachment 539004

It's impossible for it to be the capital of a seafaring civilisation, anything like that would be underwater LIKE THE LEGEND SAYS!

Last time the discussion moved to tectonic plates being displaced and continent sized tidal waves to keep the cope alive. Let it go.
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So.. when plausible theories were suggested, with proof that they happened, that doesnt matter to you. Got it, Mr. "Civilisation" teacher dude.
 
mkopec

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Chris said:
You guys keep bringing this up. I debunked it with the elevation maps. It's on a fucking mountain.

View attachment 539004

It's impossible for it to be the capital of a seafaring civilisation, anything like that would be underwater LIKE THE LEGEND SAYS!

Last time the discussion moved to tectonic plates being displaced and continent sized tidal waves to keep the cope alive. Let it go.
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LOL, elevation is compared to sea level, this is pretty fucking flat area and definitely not a mountain. From the red/pink area vs the yellow is about 600 feet elevation difference spanning its entire 25 mile area, which is nothing. Plus the area around it is pretty much desert flat, lol. Pink/red I mean, not saying it was some lost city or anyting, but a mountain? Come on bro cant you read charts?

sketchfab.com

Richat Structure--colored according to elevation - 3D model by Soros90

A ~100 million years old Richat Structure is a vulcanic dome in Mauritania. If you want to know more information, you will find it under the next link: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261998692_The_eye_of_Africa_Richat_dome_Mauritania_An_isolated_Cretaceous_alkaline-hydrothermal_complex...
sketchfab.com sketchfab.com
 
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